Not a lidge fan at all

Because he had an off year? While I think it's unrealistic thinking that we're going to sign him, he would be one hell of an addition and the answer to our closer questions. But, again, I think it's unrealstic thinking.

What is the point in proposing an IMPOSSIBLE trade scenario? The three names you mentioned aren't enough to get Lidge alone most likely, and yet you throw in Taveras AND another reliever?

 

And why are you mentioning Pinto all of a sudden? His name wasn't included previously.

 

You are overrating the Marlins talent and seem to forget the fact that the other team also needs to be willing to go through with the deal. And just because some of us aren't fans of Taveras and feel he isn't a good fit for the club, that doesn't mean other teams wouldn't want him. I happen to think Juan Pierre is easily one of the worst CF talents in baseball and yet he is highly valued by other teams.

Perhaps that says something about your ability to evaluate talent as well.

 

How so? You propose a trade of Vargas, Petit, and Mitre for Taveras and Lidge and you are criticizing MY knowledge of talent? :lol

On top of that, you don't think that Taveras and Lidge would be enough for such amazing talent and ask ANOTHER reliever from Houston?

 

Every GM on the planet would laugh his ass off at your proposal. Let me tell you something, teams aren't lining up to take the trash prospects from other clubs.

...>_> I think you take this too seriously.

 

And BTW holier-than-thou evaluator-of-talent, when did it become a law that you had to better than someone at something to "criticize"? Because if it is, then we might as well shut down this board since no one has a right to criticize the performance of any players by that standard.

 

All that said, your own point still stands. Every GM on the planet (apparently) disagrees with your low assessment of Juan Pierre's talent. Are you smarter than all of them?

 

It's not a question of trash prospects, it's filling holes. If a team needs starting pitchers and isn't willing to pay for the top free agents or give up tons in big trades, they take what they can get. Look at how the Red Sox were trading to bring in fricking Jason Johnson from the Indians, because there was an immediate need. The Astros could conceivably be short a few starting pitchers, and they could certainly do worse than Mitre & Vargas, especially if they already have a replacement in mind for Taveras and/or Lidge.

Lost in this argument of course is the cost of signing and then keeping Lidge as his service time increases.

All that said, your own point still stands. Every GM on the planet (apparently) disagrees with your low assessment of Juan Pierre's talent. Are you smarter than all of them?

 

It's not a question of trash prospects, it's filling holes. If a team needs starting pitchers and isn't willing to pay for the top free agents or give up tons in big trades, they take what they can get. Look at how the Red Sox were trading to bring in fricking Jason Johnson from the Indians, because there was an immediate need. The Astros could conceivably be short a few starting pitchers, and they could certainly do worse than Mitre & Vargas, especially if they already have a replacement in mind for Taveras and/or Lidge.

Epstein, Beane, Riccardi, Ryan, Shapiro, Byrnes, Krisky, Daniels, Moore, probably Dombrowski and some others, all would agree Pierre is nothing special and easily replaceable. However if you are a Stoneman, or K. Williams, or Hendry, or Bowden, you will probably tend to look at Pierre a little differently because you're 'old school.' Bad comment.

 

And because the Astros have theoretical replacements for Lidge/Tavaras, they would give them away for pitchers who cannot, or barely, crack a MLB roster and will be completely cast out within 2-3 years more then likely? The Astros can get much better player(s) for Brad Lidge. If we called for him, the conversation would be one of Jacobs/Nolasco and one of J.Garcia/Pinto/Andino (they could use some MI depth), etc, type player at a minimum, and they'd have all the right in the world to ask for Olsen or Anibal and not get laughed at. It wouldn't be Petit, Mitre, and Vargas for Lidge, Taveras, AND a relief pitcher. That's literally crazy. It doesn't matter Lidge had a 'down' year. He's one of the most dominant RP in baseball and will be completely fine next year. RP do this sort of thing. The Astros know this. They aren't stupid. What's stupid is to think they will take marginal level prospects that don't help them, just because they fill a hole.

Lidge, who knows? But something says to me that a few years from now teams throughout baseball will be kicking themselves for not taking a flyer on the guy in 2007.

That, and I happen to think Tankersley would be a substantially better closer than any option out there.

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

Pinto is better than just being a LOOGY

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

Pinto is better than just being a LOOGY

He's gonna be a LOOGY, at best, if he is walking 8 guys per 9 innings. He's gonna have to drop that to 4-4.5 to be considered a stable 1.20-1.25 WHIP RP, and he's going to have to drop that to the 3's if he wants to start. I really like his arm, but I'm not expecting much.

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

Pinto is better than just being a LOOGY

He's gonna be a LOOGY, at best, if he is walking 8 guys per 9 innings. He's gonna have to drop that to 4-4.5 to be considered a stable 1.20-1.25 WHIP RP, and he's going to have to drop that to the 3's if he wants to start. I really like his arm, but I'm not expecting much.

Understood, but he gets righties out better than he does lefties(atleast this season in the minors)

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

Pinto is better than just being a LOOGY

He's gonna be a LOOGY, at best, if he is walking 8 guys per 9 innings. He's gonna have to drop that to 4-4.5 to be considered a stable 1.20-1.25 WHIP RP, and he's going to have to drop that to the 3's if he wants to start. I really like his arm, but I'm not expecting much.

That is all true but he got better as the season went on. Plus, how many options do we have? He is a lefty and he is young. That is a good starting point right there. Hopefully he doesn't turn out to be the next Darren Oliver. I think Marlin fans have gotten used to seeing 6'5' guys out there throwing 97 mph with a great hook. If he can be a lefty-lefty specialist or even someone to pitch 7th or 8th, I would take that.

That is all true but he got better as the season went on.

Actually, he was good all season except for 2 appearances in July which accounted for half of all his earned runs this season. Take those out and his ERA would be under 1.70 I think.

 

I'm torn as to whether he should do long relief or 7th inning. But having him & Tank setup vs our lefty-heavy division rivals wouldn't be a bad thing. If Nolasco comes back to the bullpen I think he'd be next in line for the rotation spot.

If you go look at Pinto's minor league stats and read some of the gamelogs/recaps (the few that are still available) he seems to have been a money pitcher. While he's had some wild streaks, he has consistently had a strikeout an inning throughout his (short) career and his second year in a league has seen his strikesouts up and walks down ( http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Renyel-Pinto.shtml ). Like so many young pitchers, there's a period of adjustment at each level. I see a lot there whether he ultimately starts or becomes a fixture in the bullpen.

 

Both he and Nolasco show alot more promise than I think people give them credit for. Realizing you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs but I'd like to see another year of both guys before we think about moving either one.

I totally forgot that we had Tank. He'll do a fine job closing..it's not worth giving up all the prospects and money for lidge's services.

You typically do not want your lefty being the closer unless you have a few of them in the pen, which we don't. Tank would be much better served being a 7th/8th inning lefty setup option, and Pinto being a LOOGY.

Pinto is better than just being a LOOGY

He's gonna be a LOOGY, at best, if he is walking 8 guys per 9 innings. He's gonna have to drop that to 4-4.5 to be considered a stable 1.20-1.25 WHIP RP, and he's going to have to drop that to the 3's if he wants to start. I really like his arm, but I'm not expecting much.

That is all true but he got better as the season went on. Plus, how many options do we have? He is a lefty and he is young. That is a good starting point right there. Hopefully he doesn't turn out to be the next Darren Oliver. I think Marlin fans have gotten used to seeing 6'5' guys out there throwing 97 mph with a great hook. If he can be a lefty-lefty specialist or even someone to pitch 7th or 8th, I would take that.

You probably don't want more than 1 or 2 southpaws in the pen anyway unless ALL 3 or 4 of them are great.