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Japan admits to dissecting live POW's in WW2


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This is some pretty sick sh*t...

 

Morioka, Japan

He is a cheerful old farmer who jokes as he serves rice cakes made by his wife and then he switches easily to explaining what it is like to cut open a 30-year-old man who is tied naked to abed and dissect him alive, without anesthetic.

 

"The fellow knew that it was over for him and so he didn't struggle when 'they led him into the room and tied ,him down," recalled the 72-year-old farmer, then a medical assistant in a Japanese army unit in China in World War II. "But when I picked up the scalpel, that's when he began screaming

 

"I cut him open from the chest to the stomach and he screamed terribly and his face was all twisted in agony. He made this unimaginable sound, he was screaming so horribly. But then finally he stopped. This was all in a day's work for the surgeons, but it really left an impression on me because it was my first time."

 

Finally, the old man, who insisted on anonymity, explained the reason for the vivisection: The prisoner, who was Chinese, had been deliberately ~ infected with the plague, as part of a research project, the full horror of which is only now emerging, to develop plague bombs for use in World War II. After infecting him, the researchers decided to cut him open to see what the disease does to a man's inside.

 

"That research program was one of the great secrets of Japan during and after World War II: a vast project to develop weapons of biological warfare, including plague, anthrax, cholera and a dozen other pathogens. unit 731 of the Japanese Imperial Army conducted research by experimenting on humans and by "field testing" plague bombs by dropping them on Chinese cities to see whether they could start plague outbreaks. They could.

 

A trickle ofinformation about the germ warfare program has turned into a stream and now a torrent. Half a century after the end of the war, a rush of books, documentaries and exhibitions are unlocking the past and helping arouse interest in Japan in the atrocities committed by some of Japan's most distinguished doctors.

 

Scholars and former members of the unit say that at least 3000 people and by some accounts several times that number were killed in the medical experiments; none survived. No one knows how many died in the "field testing"

 

It is becoming evident that the Japanese officers in charge of the program hoped to use their weapons against the United States. They proposed using balloon bombs to carry disease to America and they had a plan in the summer of 1945 to use kamikaze pilots to dump plague infected fleas on San Diego.

 

The research was kept secret after the end of World War II in part because the U.S. Army granted immunity from war crimes prosecution to the doctors in exchange for their research data. Japanese and U.S. documents show that the United States helped cover up the human experimentation and instead of putting the ringleaders on trial, it gave them stipends.

 

The accounts now emerging are wrenching to read even after so much time has passed: a Russian mother and daughter reportedly left in a gas chamber, for example, as doctors peer through the thick glass and time their convulsions, watching as the woman sprawls over her child in a futile effort to save her from the gas.

 

The origin of Germ warfare

 

Japan's biological weapons program was born in the 1930s, in part because Japanese officials were impressed that germ warfare had been banned by the Geneva Protocol of 1925. If it was so awful that it had to be banned under international law, the officers reasoned, it must make a great weapon.

 

The Japanese army, which was then occupying a large chunk of China, evicted the residents of eight villages near the city of Harbin in Manchuria to make way for the headquarters of Unit 731. One advantage of China, from the Japanese point of view, was the availability of research subjects on whom germs could be tested. The subjects were called marutas. or logs, and most were Communist sympathizers or ordinary criminals. The majority were Chinese, but there were also many Russian expatriates living in China.

 

Takeo Wane, 71, a former medical worker in Unit 731 who now lives in the northern Japanese city of Morioka, said he once saw a 6-foot high glass jar in which 3 Western man was pickled in formaldehyde. The man had been cut into two pieces, vertically, and Wane guesses that he was a Russian because there were many Russians then living in the area

 

The Unit 731 headquarters contained many other such jars with specimens. They contained feet, heads, internal organs, all neatly labeled.

 

"I saw samples with labels saying 'American,' 'English' and 'Frenchman,' but most were Chinese, Koreans and Mongolians" said a Unit 731 veteran who insisted on anonymity.

 

Medical researchers also locked up diseased prisoners with healthy ones, to see how readily various ailments would spread. The doctors locked others inside a pressure chamber to see how much the body can withstand before the eyes pop from their sockets.

 

Victims were often taken to a proving ground called Anda, where they were tied to stakes in a pattern and then bombarded with test weapons to see how effective the new technologies were. Planes sprayed the zone with a plague culture or dropped bombs with plague-infested fleas to see how many people and at what distance from the center would die.

 

The Japanese army regularly conducted field tests to see whether biological warfare would work outside the laboratory. Planes dropped plague-infected fleas over Ningbo in eastern China and over Changde in north-central China and plague outbreaks were later reported.

 

Japanese troops also dropped cholera and typhoid cultures in wells and ponds, but the results were often counterproductive. In 1942, germ warfare specialists distributed dysentery, cholera and typhoid in Zhejiang Province in China. but Japanese soldiers themselves became ill and 1,700 died of the diseases, scholars say.

 

 

Sheldon Harris, a historian at California State University, in Northridge, estimates that more than 200,000 Chinese were killed in germ warfare field experiments. Hams -author ofa book on Unit 731, "Factories of Death" also says that plague-infected animals were released as the war was ending and caused outbreaks of the plague that killed at least 30,000 people in the Harbin area from 1946 through 1948.

 

The leading scholar of Unit 731 in Japan, Keiichi Tsuneishi, is skeptical of such numbers. Tsuneishi, who has led the efforts in Japan to uncover atrocities by Unit 731, says that the attack on Ningbo killed about 100 people and that there is no evidence for huge outbreaks of disease set off by field trials.

 

Knowledge gained at the cost of human lives

 

Many of the human experiments were intended to develop new vaccines or treatments for medical problems the Japanese army faced. Many experiments remain secret, but an 18-page report prepared in 1945--and kept by a senior Japanese military officer until now--includes a summary of the unit's research. The report was prepared in English for U.S. intelligence officials and it shows the extraordinary range of the unit's work.

 

There are scores of categories that describe research about which nothing is known. It is unclear what the prisoners had to endure for entries like "studies of burn scar" and "study of bullets lodged in the brains."

 

Scholars say that the research was not contrived by mad scientists and that it was intelligently designed and' carried out. The medical findings saved many Japanese lives.

 

For example, Unit 731 proved that the best treatment for frostbite was not rubbing the Limb, which had been the traditional method but immersion in water a bit warmer than 100 degrees, but never mom than 122 degrees.

 

The cost of this scientific breakthrough was borne by those seized for medical experiments. They were taken outside and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water, until a guard decided that frostbite had set in. Testimony From a Japanese officer said this was determined after the "frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives when it is struck."

 

A booklet just published in Japan after a major exhibition about Unit 731 shows how doctors even experimented on a three-day-old baby, measuring the temperature with a needle stuck inside the infant's middle finger.

 

"Usually a hand of a three-day-old infant is clenched into a fist", the booklet says, "but by sticking the needle in, the middle finger could be kept straight to make the experiment easier".

 

 

The Scope of Human experimentation

 

The human experimentation did not take place just in Unit 731, nor was it a rogue unit acting on its own. While it is unclear whether Emperor Hirohito knew of the atrocities, his younger brother, Prince Mikasa, toured Unit 731's headquarters in China and wrote in his memoirs that he was shown films showing how Chinese prisoners were "made to march on the plains of Manchuria for poison gas experiments on humans."

 

In addition, the recollections of Dr. Ken Yuasa, 78, who still practices in a clinic in Tokyo, suggest that human experimentation may have been routine even outside Unit 731. Dr. Yuasa was an army medic in China, but he says he was never in Unit 731 and never had contact with it.

 

Nevertheless. Dr. Yuasa says that when he was still in medical school In Japan, the students heard that ordinary doctors who went to China were allowed to vivisect patients. And sure enough, when Dr. Yuasa arrived in Shanxi Province in northcentral China in 1942, he was soon asked to attend a "practice surgery."

 

Two Chinese men were brought in, stripped naked and given general anesthetic. Then Dr. Yuasa and the others began practicing various kinds of surgery: first an appendectomy, then an amputation of an arm and finally a tracheotomy. After 90 minutes, they were finished, so they killed the patient with an injection.

 

When Dr. Yuasa was put in charge of a clinic, he said, he periodically asked the police for a Communist to dissect, and they sent one over. The vivisection was all for practice rather than for research, and Dr. Yuasa says they were routine among Japanese doctors working in China in the war.

 

In addition, Dr. Yuasa - who is now deeply apologetic about what he did - said he cultivated typhoid germs in test tubes and passed them on, as he had been instructed to do, to another army unit. Someone from that unit, which also had no connection with Unit 731, later told him that the troops would use the test tubes to infect the wells of villages in Communist-held territory.

 

Plans to take the germ war to the US homeland

 

In 1944, when Japan was nearing defeat, Tokyo's military planners seized on a remarkable way to hit back at the American heartland: they launched huge balloons that rode the prevailing winds to the continental United States. Although the American Government censored re. ports at the time, some 200 balloons landed in Western states, and bombs carried by the balloons killed a woman in Montana and six people in Oregon.

 

Half a century later, there is evidence that it could have been far worse; some Japanese generals proposed loading the balloons with weapons of biological warfare, to create epidemics of plague or anthrax In the United States. Other army units wanted to send cattleplague virus to wipe out the American livestock industry or grain smut to wipe out the crops.

 

There was a fierce debate in Tokyo, and a document discovered recently suggests that at a crucial meeting in late July 1944 it was Hideki Tojo - whom the United States later hanged for war crimes - who rejected the proposal to use germ warfare against the United States.

 

At the time of the meeting, Tojo had just been ousted as Prime Minister and chief of the General Staff, but he retained enough authority to veto the proposal. He knew by then that Japan was likely to lose the war, and he feared that biological assaults on the United States would invite retaliation with germ or chemical weapons being developed by America.

 

Yet the Japanese Army was apparently willing to use biological weapons against the Allies in some circumstances. When the United States prepared to attack the Pacific island of Saipan in the late spring of 1944, a submarine was sent from Japan to carry biological weapons it is unclear what kind - to the defenders.

 

The submarine was sunk, Professor Tsuneishi says, and the Japanese troops had to rely on conventional weapons alone.

 

As the end of the war approached In 1945, Unit 731 embarked on its wildest scheme of all. Codenamed Cherry Blossoms at Night, the plan was to use kamikaze pilots to infest California with the plague.

 

Toshimi Mizobuchi, who was an instructor for new recruits in Unit 731, said the idea was to use 20 of the 500 new troops who arrived in Harbin in July 1945. A submarine was to take a few of them to the seas off Southern California, and then they were to fly -in a plane carried on board the submarine and contaminate San Diego with plague-infected fleas. The target date was to be Sept. 22, 1945.

 

Ishio Obata, 73, who now lives in Ehime prefecture, acknowledged that he had been a chief of the Cherry Blossoms at Night attack force against San Diego, but he declined to discuss details. "It is such a terrible memory that I don't want to recall it," he said.

 

Tadao Ishimaru, also 73, said he had learned only after returning to Japan that he had been a candidate for the strike force against San Diego. "I don't want to think about Unit 731," he said in a brief telephone interview. "Fifty years have passed since the war. Please let me remain silent."

 

It Is unclear whether Cherry Blossoms at Night ever had a chance of being carried out. Japan did indeed have at least five submarines that carried two or three planes each, their wings folded against the fuselage like a bird.

 

But a Japanese Navy specialist said the navy would have never allowed Its finest equipment to be used for an army plan like Cherry Blossoms at Night, partly because the highest priority in the summer of 1945 was to defend the main Japanese islands, not to launch attacks on the United States mainland.

 

If the Cherry Blossoms at Night plan was ever serious, it became irrelevant as Japan prepared to sur-render in early August 1945. In the last days of the war, beginning on Aug. 9, Unit 731 used dynamite to try to destroy all evidence of its germ warfare program, scholars say.

 

No Punishment, Little Remorse

 

Partly because the Americans helped cover up the biological warfare program in exchange for its data, Gen. Shiro Ishii, the head of Unit 731, was allowed to live peacefully until his death from throat cancer in 1959. Those around him in Unit 731 saw their careers flourish in the postwar period, rising to positions that included Governor of Tokyo, president of the Japan Medical Association and head of the Japan Olympic Committee.

 

By conventional standards, few people were more cruel than the farmer who as a Unit 731 member carved up a Chinese prisoner without anesthetic, and who also acknowledged that he had helped poison rivers and wells. Yet his main intention in agreeing to an interview seemed to be to explain that Unit 731 was not really so brutal after all.

 

Asked why he had not anesthetized the prisoner before dissecting him, the farmer explained: "Vivisection should be done under normal circumstances. If we'd used anesthesia, that might have affected the body organs and blood vessels that we were examining. So we couldn't have used anesthetic."

 

When the topic of children came up, the farmer offered another justification: "Of course there were experiments on children. But probably their fathers were spies."

 

"There's a possibility this could happen again," the old man said, smiling genially. "Because in a war, you have to win."

http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/germwar.htm

 

 

 

.........And we were the bad guys for dropping the nukes.

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.........And we were the bad guys for dropping the nukes.

 

 

Yes, it is still a horrible tragedy that over 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the attacts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One horrible act does not cancel another. These were both terrible things but don't for one second try to spin this. You have a lot of American pride which is admirable Accord but a human life is a human life, no matter what nationality. An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality. I just hope you realize this when you head off to training and possibly wars.

 

.........And we were the bad guys for dropping the nukes.

 

 

Yes, it is still a horrible tragedy that over 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the attacts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One horrible act does not cancel another. These were both terrible things but don't for one second try to spin this. You have a lot of American pride which is admirable Accord but a human life is a human life, no matter what nationality. An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality. I just hope you realize this when you head off to training and possibly wars.

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An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

Wow. :blink:

 

All else being equal:

 

Your child's life is worth more to you than another innocent person, as it should be. Your brother's life is as well, as it should be. Your friend's life is worth more to you than some random person, as it should be. The life of your countryman should be worth more to you than some unnamed person from some other nation.

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It's a round world last time I checked. Guess borders based on tribalistic beliefs of sameness extend to humanity as well. "You don't live here? Well, sorry, you're less of a human."

 

What a great way to be. Fulfilled in every way as a human being. But, I'm not judging. Because I don't care at all. It was war, they tortured folks. *shrugs*

 

Mark that down as atrocity number one billion, two hundred million, forty nine thousand in the books and let it be shown that THIS is the reason than there cannot be a benevolent creator. Unless he's a son of a bitch.

 

I have enough trouble giving and caring for human beings alive now to care about some dudes who got tortured during a war! Oh, whoops, by the way, we stuck their people in internment camps and did sh*tty things to them, too (and by "their" people I mean Americans with slanty eyes and of Japanese descent). Maybe not along the lines of documented dissection, but come on!

 

Accord is the poster boy for Colonial Britain, by the way. Where their cute little sigs, had they computers, would have read, "Colonial America as ruled by Britain, love it or leave it, chap." I love me the people who don't understand freedom and the right to dissent.

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All else being equal:

 

Your child's life is worth more to you than another innocent person, as it should be. Your brother's life is as well, as it should be. Your friend's life is worth more to you than some random person, as it should be. The life of your countryman should be worth more to you than some unnamed person from some other nation.

 

So nice that having the fortune of being born a few miles from the next kid means you're "worth" more than he is.

 

I can't say because person X was lucky enough to be born in the U.S., that his life is "worth" more than person Y who was born across a border. Sorry, I just can't reach that conclusion. I love America, but I'm not making that choice. If you think that makes me unpatriotic, have a ball. To me, being an American means being above that sort of thing. That fuzzy naive stuff probably eats you up about some Americans, but there it is.

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but that's not how it is now.

Which is SAD.

 

An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

Wow. :blink:

The only thing you should be "wow'ing" at is the incredible lack of patriotism and national pride among many American's these days. Two people are being held hostage, one is an American and one is Russian. Only one of them will live and you're the only person with the power to decide which one. Don't f***ing tell me you would pick the non-American over the American.

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An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

 

Wow... Just wow... I don't even know how to respond to this. I have lost what little respect I previously had for you Accord with that comment though. This is absolutly disfraceful and hopefully not an indicator of the mindset of our armed forces. If it is, I'm very fearful in the way America and the world is going. You make think this is an extreme response, but i am appalled that you could say that and actually mean it...

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but that's not how it is now.

Which is SAD.

 

An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

Wow. :blink:

The only thing you should be "wow'ing" at is the incredible lack of patriotism and national pride among many American's these days. Two people are being held hostage, one is an American and one is Russian. Only one of them will live and you're the only person with the power to decide which one. Don't f***ing tell me you would pick the non-American over the American.

 

See, this analogy just shows how uncreative you are. I mean, let's be honest, if we know who the two dudes in question are, say the American is George W. Bush and the Brazillian is Pele, then dammit I'm saving Pele; and, I think, we can safely say, in my scenario at least, NO innocent life will have been lost. Problem solved.

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but that's not how it is now.

Which is SAD.

 

An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

Wow. :blink:

The only thing you should be "wow'ing" at is the incredible lack of patriotism and national pride among many American's these days. Two people are being held hostage, one is an American and one is Russian. Only one of them will live and you're the only person with the power to decide which one. Don't f***ing tell me you would pick the non-American over the American.

 

This has nothing to do with patriotism and whether you like it or not, there are things in this world more important and more sacred than patriotism to ones country. The value of a human life should be one those things, irregardless of nationality.

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An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

 

Wow... Just wow... I don't even know how to respond to this. I have lost what little respect I previously had for you Accord with that comment though. This is absolutly disfraceful and hopefully not an indicator of the mindset of our armed forces. If it is, I'm very fearful in the way America and the world is going. You make think this is an extreme response, but i am appalled that you could say that and actually mean it...

 

See, here's the thing:

 

We're fighting more than just the war in Iraq.

 

Over here we're fighting a war or the spirit; of thoughts and ideas. That evolution did not stop with our thumbs and that there are things of merit aside from national boundaries. Some people will not understand this. Because they have not, truly, evolved. I'm not namecalling, and maybe I am but dressing it up a bit, but I totally believe this to be true. I do not think a sane and rational person could give someone merit based on where they were born and live.

 

Same analogy: TWO Americans are to be executed, you have to decide which one. One was born in America, however, while the other one became a citizen and just happened, WHOOPS, to have been born in Afghanistan and IS a Muslim (meaning: there's high likelihood that they're on some terrorist watchgroups hit-list). Who do you choose?

 

Tough to say. Because the world is not black and white. American and un-American, like that. And there are things to be considered aside from this stupid "we live here" mentality.

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An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

 

Wow... Just wow... I don't even know how to respond to this. I have lost what little respect I previously had for you Accord with that comment though. This is absolutly disfraceful and hopefully not an indicator of the mindset of our armed forces. If it is, I'm very fearful in the way America and the world is going. You make think this is an extreme response, but i am appalled that you could say that and actually mean it...

 

See, here's the thing:

 

We're fighting more than just the war in Iraq.

 

Over here we're fighting a war or the spirit; of thoughts and ideas. That evolution did not stop with our thumbs and that there are things of merit aside from national boundaries. Some people will not understand this. Because they have not, truly, evolved. I'm not namecalling, and maybe I am but dressing it up a bit, but I totally believe this to be true. I do not think a sane and rational person could give someone merit based on where they were born and live.

 

Same analogy: TWO Americans are to be executed, you have to decide which one. One was born in America, however, while the other one became a citizen and just happened, WHOOPS, to have been born in Afghanistan and IS a Muslim (meaning: there's high likelihood that they're on some terrorist watchgroups hit-list). Who do you choose?

 

Tough to say. Because the world is not black and white. American and un-American, like that. And there are things to be considered aside from this stupid "we live here" mentality.

Not really.

 

Thousands of innocent iraqi's are tortured, decapitated, etc. by terrorists. Nobody cares.

 

Then Nick Berg is decapitated by terrorists and all of a sudden everyone cares.

 

Why? Because he is an American.

 

Thousands of Iraqi's are kidnapped every month. Nobody cares.

 

Jill Carol is kidnapped and all of a sudden everyone cares.

 

Why? Because she is an American.

 

The fact of the matter is an American life takes precedent over the lives of anyone else, that is just how it is whether you like it or not and every other westernized country is the exact same way about their own people.

 

If our government did not put American lives before the lives of someone else, something would be very wrong.

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All else being equal:

 

Your child's life is worth more to you than another innocent person, as it should be. Your brother's life is as well, as it should be. Your friend's life is worth more to you than some random person, as it should be. The life of your countryman should be worth more to you than some unnamed person from some other nation.

 

So nice that having the fortune of being born a few miles from the next kid means you're "worth" more than he is.

 

I can't say because person X was lucky enough to be born in the U.S., that his life is "worth" more than person Y who was born across a border. Sorry, I just can't reach that conclusion. I love America, but I'm not making that choice. If you think that makes me unpatriotic, have a ball. To me, being an American means being above that sort of thing. That fuzzy naive stuff probably eats you up about some Americans, but there it is.

 

Who cares where you are born? If you come to America and join our nation, you are American. That is one of our finest attributes. This country is fundamentally noble, both in purpose and in spirit. Certainly it has flaws, but they are small flaws in the context of nations. For a century America has sent its men overseas to die on behalf of other people, and the only land we claim is the space required to bury our dead. No other nation in the history of mankind has ever operated on that principle. The simple fact that an American is more angry about the 2,752 deaths on 9-11 than he is about 5,000+ Kurds killed by Saddam's gas attacks should not suprise you, because that is how it should be.

 

Perhaps it is the word 'worth' that upsets your sensibilities. Perhaps relevance would work better. The safety and well-being of an American has more relevance to an American than the safety and well-being of a foreign national.

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Do you care about some random innocent American from Arkansas who is murdered by another American from Arkansas who lives down the street? I doubt you care more about that person than a random Iraqi who is killed by another Iraqi. An innocent person is an innocent person. My innocent life is not any more precious than the innocent life of someone who was born in a different geographical location. Maybe I'm unpatriotic if that's what you want to call me, but I don't like every single person who lives in this country, and I am not of the opinion that an American is more precious than a non-American. I am an American because I was born here and surrounded by this culture, and that's it.

 

We dropped bombs on Japan because we were in a war and we had to. The fact that the Japanese were victims and not Americans does not make the act any more right than what the Japanese were planning to do to us.

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An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

 

Wow... Just wow... I don't even know how to respond to this. I have lost what little respect I previously had for you Accord with that comment though. This is absolutly disfraceful and hopefully not an indicator of the mindset of our armed forces. If it is, I'm very fearful in the way America and the world is going. You make think this is an extreme response, but i am appalled that you could say that and actually mean it...

 

See, here's the thing:

 

We're fighting more than just the war in Iraq.

 

Over here we're fighting a war or the spirit; of thoughts and ideas. That evolution did not stop with our thumbs and that there are things of merit aside from national boundaries. Some people will not understand this. Because they have not, truly, evolved. I'm not namecalling, and maybe I am but dressing it up a bit, but I totally believe this to be true. I do not think a sane and rational person could give someone merit based on where they were born and live.

 

Same analogy: TWO Americans are to be executed, you have to decide which one. One was born in America, however, while the other one became a citizen and just happened, WHOOPS, to have been born in Afghanistan and IS a Muslim (meaning: there's high likelihood that they're on some terrorist watchgroups hit-list). Who do you choose?

 

Tough to say. Because the world is not black and white. American and un-American, like that. And there are things to be considered aside from this stupid "we live here" mentality.

Not really.

 

Thousands of innocent iraqi's are tortured, decapitated, etc. by terrorists. Nobody cares.

 

Then Nick Berg is decapitated by terrorists and all of a sudden everyone cares.

 

Why? Because he is an American.

 

Thousands of Iraqi's are kidnapped every month. Nobody cares.

 

Jill Carol is kidnapped and all of a sudden everyone cares.

 

Why? Because she is an American.

 

The fact of the matter is an American life takes precedent over the lives of anyone else, that is just how it is whether you like it or not and every other westernized country is the exact same way about their own people.

 

If our government did not put American lives before the lives of someone else, something would be very wrong.

 

I'll only grant you media bias. And that's it.

 

Because I wouldn't know either of the people you named except you brought up the decapitation.

 

Of course it's our governments job to pretend to care for lives while meaninglessly sending our troops into the lions den that is Iraq in a war we're not only losing but also losing these valuable American lives that are so important to you. Thing is, you don't even understand what I'm talking about. You don't see the hypocrisy of "caring" for (scrolls up) Nick Berg while sending Donald Reeves Jr., Josh Reutsch and a couple thousand other troops to possible die in some sh*thole in Iraq. Doesn't make sense, does it? Or maybe they don't care at all and that's the party line.

 

But, you're not the government. And you don't seem to understand that INTRINSICALLY (look it up) no life is of more worth than another. Now, I'll grant you if you're talking about some psycho killer vs. a child then the child wins out. But, we're talking about borders, not whether or not the person is a criminal. And you've done nothing to show, aside that our own government sends out a search team and that's it, and the news reports it because it's ratings and the kind of sh*t people eat up (as if caring will get MORE effort put into finding these people; because it doesn't), that the life of an American is better than the life of anyone else, period. Show me, legitimately, without getting into "well, our government," or, "CBS news said," to show that an American life is worth more than another life?

 

And if that's true, then why do we send aid to other countries, period? Don't we have enough poor and starving Americans to take care of that it doesn't necessitate sending food and aid to (I don't know) Uganda? Or are you against that to? Why ont help our bums before we help the bums of other countries?

 

I see some holes in your theory.

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All else being equal:

 

Your child's life is worth more to you than another innocent person, as it should be. Your brother's life is as well, as it should be. Your friend's life is worth more to you than some random person, as it should be. The life of your countryman should be worth more to you than some unnamed person from some other nation.

 

So nice that having the fortune of being born a few miles from the next kid means you're "worth" more than he is.

 

I can't say because person X was lucky enough to be born in the U.S., that his life is "worth" more than person Y who was born across a border. Sorry, I just can't reach that conclusion. I love America, but I'm not making that choice. If you think that makes me unpatriotic, have a ball. To me, being an American means being above that sort of thing. That fuzzy naive stuff probably eats you up about some Americans, but there it is.

 

Who cares where you are born? If you come to America and join our nation, you are American. That is one of our finest attributes. This country is fundamentally noble, both in purpose and in spirit. Certainly it has flaws, but they are small flaws in the context of nations. For a century America has sent its men overseas to die on behalf of other people, and the only land we claim is the space required to bury our dead. No other nation in the history of mankind has ever operated on that principle. The simple fact that an American is more angry about the 2,752 deaths on 9-11 than he is about 5,000+ Kurds killed by Saddam's gas attacks should not suprise you, because that is how it should be.

 

Perhaps it is the word 'worth' that upsets your sensibilities. Perhaps relevance would work better. The safety and well-being of an American has more relevance to an American than the safety and well-being of a foreign national.

 

fair enough. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all.

 

The term "relevant" would fit better, yes.

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but that's not how it is now.

Which is SAD.

 

An innocent American life is no more valuable than one of another nationality.

An innocent American life is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian of another nationality. That's just the way it is.

Wow. :blink:

The only thing you should be "wow'ing" at is the incredible lack of patriotism and national pride among many American's these days. Two people are being held hostage, one is an American and one is Russian. Only one of them will live and you're the only person with the power to decide which one. Don't f***ing tell me you would pick the non-American over the American.

I wouldn't care (equally so) if you or Eric or an Albanian died in a traffic accident. It's not just that I think you're a SOB, but really that I dont know you or any of your family. It matters not at all how I conduct my life. I do think my opinion would change depending on the manner in which the person was killed and what they were doing though.

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:confused

 

Nation-state was a term that served a purpose in the 17th-19th centuries, but in the past 100 or so years has begun to lose its relevance. Just as a city-state was once a center of power, the country will only be still around as important as long as it takes for the rest of the world to merge into regional boundaries. Then from there we'll eventually merge into one global government once we have bases and flourishing communities on other planets. Evolution isn't limited just to physicality.

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