I saw noi reason to sit him last night. he was careful slowing down but had the acceleration. I would bet in cold or rainy weather they hold him out right now, but other than that he is in the lineup.

I saw noi reason to sit him last night. he was careful slowing down but had the acceleration. I would bet in cold or rainy weather they hold him out right now, but other than that he is in the lineup.

Hamstrings are nagging injuries. You don't want him to tweak it, even if he showed no signs previously in the game, in a game that's already decided.

He's unquestionably our most "important" player offensively

 

I don't see why that statement is unquestionable. I'd say Miggy is more important.

 

Miggy was still predictably great during the Brewers series and we struggled.

 

It's no surprise that Hanley's been in the lineup for our serious offensive explosions.

 

Miggy's better, Miggy's the HOF caliber player, but Hanley's the key to the offense...and not in a lame fast leadoff hitter "he disrupts the pitcher" kind of way, in the 5 tool spark plug at the top that is probably going to be standing on third for Miggy, Hammer or Jake.

 

5 tool spark club? I guess that throwing arm and glovework really come in handy sparking the offense. The truth is that Cabrera trumps Han-Ram in 2 of the 3 offensively applicable "tools." Miggy bats for higher average, gets on base more, slugs more, and basically does everything better than Hanley on offense except run. That makes him more important. Remember that Miguel also automatically makes whoever hits in front of him better (see Uggla, Dan) by making pitchers not want to walk that player and offering him pitches to hit.

 

And please don't use a single series (Brewers) as your sample for saying Hanley is more important for the team as a whole. Do some honest introspection and ask yourself which tragedy would be more costly for us in the end of year total runs scored column: Losing Hanley for a year, or losing Cabrera for a year?

He's unquestionably our most "important" player offensively

 

I don't see why that statement is unquestionable. I'd say Miggy is more important.

 

Miggy was still predictably great during the Brewers series and we struggled.

 

It's no surprise that Hanley's been in the lineup for our serious offensive explosions.

 

Miggy's better, Miggy's the HOF caliber player, but Hanley's the key to the offense...and not in a lame fast leadoff hitter "he disrupts the pitcher" kind of way, in the 5 tool spark plug at the top that is probably going to be standing on third for Miggy, Hammer or Jake.

 

5 tool spark club? I guess that throwing arm and glovework really come in handy sparking the offense. The truth is that Cabrera trumps Han-Ram in 2 of the 3 offensively applicable "tools." Miggy bats for higher average, gets on base more, slugs more, and basically does everything better than Hanley on offense except run. That makes him more important. Remember that Miguel also automatically makes whoever hits in front of him better (see Uggla, Dan) by making pitchers not want to walk that player and offering him pitches to hit.

 

And please don't use a single series (Brewers) as your sample for saying Hanley is more important for the team as a whole. Do some honest introspection and ask yourself which tragedy would be more costly for us in the end of year total runs scored column: Losing Hanley for a year, or losing Cabrera for a year?

 

Where did I disagree that Cabrera's the superior player, hence the better numbers for Miggy.

 

But you should look around and see how many team's offenses sputter without their "spark club"

 

Since we're devolving into a simplistic argument, all I need to point to to prove that Hanley makes this offense tick is the fact that he lead the team last year in runs scored and even missing 3 games played leads them in runs scored so far this season (and is #2 in the NL).

 

And, let me preemptively respond to you, yes Miggy leads the team in RBI, but it's a chicken-egg conundrum. Hanley can't score the runs if Miggy's not knocking him in, but Miggy can't knock them in if Hanley's not there.

 

And to me, that argues plenty for Hanley's irreplaceable value.

 

Notice not once in there did I even suggest that he's better than Miggy.

I agree Hanley should have been pulled from last night's game. He probably shouldn't have started to begin with. But anyone that thinks Hanley is better than Migs is watching with their eyes closed.

This is getting annoying :deadhorse

 

Apparently we only differ in our definition of "important." You said Hanley was our "most important" offensive player--unquestionably, at that. I merely questioned the unquestionable :wink

 

p.s. my definition of our "most important offensive player" is along the lines of which player means more runs for the team at the end of the year.

Miguel is better or more important or whatever you want to call it than Hanley and I can't believe this is even up for debate. Every year Miguel improves and it looks like this year he'll put up MVP type numbers.

TSwift is arguing the chicken and the egg idea. He is also making the argument very well. If you do not have runners on base, avg, slugging, on base are great things to have but Miggy cannot get the rbis. Although Miggy is the better player, will make more money, and will get more publicity (before hanley evolves into more of a middle of the lineup hitter) Miggy and Hanley need each other.

 

I will make a simple argument using one reference. Such a difference between 03,04, and 05 with the Florida Marlins. (many variables combine to produce the difference) One thing that stands out, Juan Pierre and Luis Castillo regressed. Table setters impact the rest of the lineup. I know, Mike Lowell, Pudge gone, pitching, bla bla bla. But, we could have won some more games with the same production from pierre and luis from 03.

Not in any order...

Baseballs best clubs last year and leadoff hitters:

1- NYY (I believe it was Johnny Damon, and the year before he was with the SOX)

2- NYM (Jose Reyes, enough said)

3- St Louis Cardinals (World Series MVP David Eckstein)

4- San Diego Padres (Dave Roberts in 129 gp, .293 avg, .360 obp)

5- LAD (Rafael Furcal... yummy)

6- Boston (they fluttered even with the best 3-4 combo in the bigs... COCO CRISP... .317 obp that dropped him in the order at some points)

7- Toronto (Reed Johnson .391 OBP)

8- Minnesota (stewart/luis castillo) luis .358 obp and stewart in 44 games had a .347

9- detroit (Curtis Granderson...335 obp... Tigers critics said they needed a more prototypical leadoff hitter all year)

10- Chicago White Sox (Scott Podsednik... went from a 351 obp with 59 sb and a 290 avg to a 260 and a 330 obp from 05 to 06.)

11- Oakland- Jason Kendall obp 367

12- LAA- chone figgins 336 obp

 

You be the judge of what makes a team go.

I think he looked fine. We all know what a sore hammy feels like...and even though he cringed slightly after running to 1st he definitely seemed fine overall. If it didn't hit him last night, I think he'll just continue to improve.

 

I've pulled a hammy before and it didn't get better if I tried to push it. The only way Hanley heals is with rest.

I did as well and it took me about 3 weeks for it to heal. I am not as young or in the physical condition as Hanley but I also don't have the physical demands that he does either

I saw noi reason to sit him last night. he was careful slowing down but had the acceleration. I would bet in cold or rainy weather they hold him out right now, but other than that he is in the lineup.

Hamstrings are nagging injuries. You don't want him to tweak it, even if he showed no signs previously in the game, in a game that's already decided.

 

It was said by Fredi that if it was later in the season in a hunt he would have been playing those games he missed. He's a spark plug to this team. He has 11 runs scored, tied for second behind Reyes in only 7 games played vs 10 games.

Trust me. I know hammy injuries. After the game turned into a blow out I could see sitting him, just for the precautionary thing. And I didn't like that he was on the roster for Saturday's game. I thought for sure in those wet conditions he would have been on the bench. I am hoping that in the cold conditions predicted for Sunday he is on the bench, but we shall see. If he is playing on a not 100% hammy I would prefer he does it in warm weather on a dry field. But I'm not a team doctor/trainer and I don't have first hand knowledge on his condition. Nobody else here does either. We will just have to trust the decision making of those that do.

 

I think he looked fine. We all know what a sore hammy feels like...and even though he cringed slightly after running to 1st he definitely seemed fine overall. If it didn't hit him last night, I think he'll just continue to improve.

 

I've pulled a hammy before and it didn't get better if I tried to push it. The only way Hanley heals is with rest.

I did as well and it took me about 3 weeks for it to heal. I am not as young or in the physical condition as Hanley but I also don't have the physical demands that he does either

 

According to the reports, he didn't pull it, he tweeked it. Much different. I more upset he was on the line up card for Saturday's wet conditions than that he even started Friday.

Us sitting back here and saying we have had that injury and this is what they should do is equivalent to taking your car into a garage and telling the mechanic how to work on it because you saw it done once. I own an auto glass company and I can tell you that happens all the time, with me and employees. I normaly step back and offer them my tools, or get them away from my guys. Let the experts in their field do their thing.

To say that Hanley should be in the 8th inning of a blowout game when he has ANY type of hammy discomfort is one of the stupidest things Ive heard on this website

He may have insisted on staying in but the manager has to do what's right

To say that Hanley should be in the 8th inning of a blowout game when he has ANY type of hammy discomfort is one of the stupidest things Ive heard on this website

 

I can't find where anyone said he should have been playing in a late inning blow out game. But I also don't see where anyone has Dr. in front of their name on this board either. Or is intimate with all the details of the physical condition of any of our players other than what we all read in the media.

To say that Hanley should be in the 8th inning of a blowout game when he has ANY type of hammy discomfort is one of the stupidest things Ive heard on this website

 

I can't find where anyone said he should have been playing in a late inning blow out game. But I also don't see where anyone has Dr. in front of their name on this board either. Or is intimate with all the details of the physical condition of any of our players other than what we all read in the media.

Bronco when you see someone limping as badly as Shadez was you don't need a Medical degree to conclude he was hurting and if he was hurting there was little reason not to give him a chance to rest and not risk aggravating any injury. I really believe Shadez didn't want to come out but that is the manager's choice, he should have pulled him anyway

To say that Hanley should be in the 8th inning of a blowout game when he has ANY type of hammy discomfort is one of the stupidest things Ive heard on this website

 

I can't find where anyone said he should have been playing in a late inning blow out game. But I also don't see where anyone has Dr. in front of their name on this board either. Or is intimate with all the details of the physical condition of any of our players other than what we all read in the media.

Bronco when you see someone limping as badly as Shadez was you don't need a Medical degree to conclude he was hurting and if he was hurting there was little reason not to give him a chance to rest and not risk aggravating any injury. I really believe Shadez didn't want to come out but that is the manager's choice, he should have pulled him anyway

 

Yea. He looked real bad rounding 3rd and blowing off the stop sign Monday night. Like I said before... We sit in front of our TVs, listen to the reports, and automatically know more than the coaching and medical staffs just because we have tweekd our hammies before. Who's to say Hanley wasn't playing it up a little for the defense to slacken up a bit vs him? Actually, it looks like that may be what was going on. Let the experts do their jobs.