'The man has blood on his hands' is so ridiculous considering he made no decisions on Iraq. None.

 

He gets far too much 'credit' as do most political consultants - good or bad, whatever your opinion on what makes those is. It's obvious by this thread that the Democrats will miss him most by losing their favorite spank bank material in Rove.

 

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government. I've seen it first hand and it isn't pretty.

 

Spare me with that ridiculous language and drama.

yeah...helping the poor is such a dastardly thing to do...

I used to beleive that until reality hit me and I realized that many people are just worthless excuses for working human beings who don't want to work because they are living well enough off of the government.

 

 

Regulate the system better and maybe I'd agree.

thats not the point...foxy here makes it sound like every single welfare recipient is cheating the system because they are fat, lazy slobs for human beings...when that, at best is a gross generalization of the poor in this country...people will cheat every system you can conceive of...thats human nature...but id say most of the people that do get welfare do need it to survive

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on welfare don't actually need it.

'The man has blood on his hands' is so ridiculous considering he made no decisions on Iraq. None.

 

He gets far too much 'credit' as do most political consultants - good or bad, whatever your opinion on what makes those is. It's obvious by this thread that the Democrats will miss him most by losing their favorite spank bank material in Rove.

 

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government. I've seen it first hand and it isn't pretty.

 

Spare me with that ridiculous language and drama.

yeah...helping the poor is such a dastardly thing to do...

I used to beleive that until reality hit me and I realized that many people are just worthless excuses for working human beings who don't want to work because they are living well enough off of the government.

 

 

Regulate the system better and maybe I'd agree.

thats not the point...foxy here makes it sound like every single welfare recipient is cheating the system because they are fat, lazy slobs for human beings...when that, at best is a gross generalization of the poor in this country...people will cheat every system you can conceive of...thats human nature...but id say most of the people that do get welfare do need it to survive

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on welfare don't actually need it.

based on what?

Based on my personal experience there are a lot of people on these social programs who don't actually deserve the aid they are receiving. What pisses me off is that these people KNOW they don't deserve the aid and openingly mock the program and try to get away with as much as possible.

 

BTW, you are the MB.com Captain of Gross Generalizations.

'The man has blood on his hands' is so ridiculous considering he made no decisions on Iraq. None.

 

He gets far too much 'credit' as do most political consultants - good or bad, whatever your opinion on what makes those is. It's obvious by this thread that the Democrats will miss him most by losing their favorite spank bank material in Rove.

 

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government. I've seen it first hand and it isn't pretty.

 

Spare me with that ridiculous language and drama.

yeah...helping the poor is such a dastardly thing to do...

I used to beleive that until reality hit me and I realized that many people are just worthless excuses for working human beings who don't want to work because they are living well enough off of the government.

 

 

Regulate the system better and maybe I'd agree.

thats not the point...foxy here makes it sound like every single welfare recipient is cheating the system because they are fat, lazy slobs for human beings...when that, at best is a gross generalization of the poor in this country...people will cheat every system you can conceive of...thats human nature...but id say most of the people that do get welfare do need it to survive

You went from my point and took it to another direction with the standard liberal, 'helping the poor is bad' sarcastic remark.

 

Unless because of disability or something of the like, being poor is a choice not something that some people are just branded with from birth. That is however what a lot of people believe which in turn creates more problems.

 

I'm not even talking about whether or not people on welfare 'need it' I'm talking about what our current welfare system creates - more poverty. Seriously do not act like you know where I'm coming from when I talk about this stuff. It's 100% from first hand experience within my own family. I've seen it firsthand and know about people who don't try to get off welfare because they originally believed the white man is evil, they had no chance to succeed in our society with the resources the government has given us (free school, etc.) so they turn to the government teet and get swept up in to the system and do nothing but try to score crack (by whatever means necessary often times unprotected sex with disease ridden partners) and have multiple kids for more government money which they have no intention of supporting.

 

None of that is a generalization or a stereotype, thats a portion of my family and specifically my grandmother on my father's side so seriously step off when responding to my original post and putting words in my mouth with things I didn't say and that weren't implied. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to me.

Based on my personal experience there are a lot of people on these social programs who don't actually deserve the aid they are receiving. What pisses me off is that these people KNOW they don't deserve the aid and openingly mock the program and try to get away with as much as possible.

 

BTW, you are the MB.com Captain of Gross Generalizations.

yep...thats me...you didnt know you can judge a book by its cover?

'The man has blood on his hands' is so ridiculous considering he made no decisions on Iraq. None.

 

He gets far too much 'credit' as do most political consultants - good or bad, whatever your opinion on what makes those is. It's obvious by this thread that the Democrats will miss him most by losing their favorite spank bank material in Rove.

 

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government. I've seen it first hand and it isn't pretty.

 

Spare me with that ridiculous language and drama.

yeah...helping the poor is such a dastardly thing to do...

I used to beleive that until reality hit me and I realized that many people are just worthless excuses for working human beings who don't want to work because they are living well enough off of the government.

 

 

Regulate the system better and maybe I'd agree.

thats not the point...foxy here makes it sound like every single welfare recipient is cheating the system because they are fat, lazy slobs for human beings...when that, at best is a gross generalization of the poor in this country...people will cheat every system you can conceive of...thats human nature...but id say most of the people that do get welfare do need it to survive

You went from my point and took it to another direction with the standard liberal, 'helping the poor is bad' sarcastic remark.

 

Unless because of disability or something of the like, being poor is a choice not something that some people are just branded with from birth. That is however what a lot of people believe which in turn creates more problems.

 

I'm not even talking about whether or not people on welfare 'need it' I'm talking about what our current welfare system creates - more poverty. Seriously do not act like you know where I'm coming from when I talk about this stuff. It's 100% from first hand experience within my own family. I've seen it firsthand and know about people who don't try to get off welfare because they originally believed the white man is evil, they had no chance to succeed in our society with the resources the government has given us (free school, etc.) so they turn to the government teet and get swept up in to the system and do nothing but try to score crack (by whatever means necessary often times unprotected sex with disease ridden partners) and have multiple kids for more government money which they have no intention of supporting.

 

None of that is a generalization or a stereotype, thats a portion of my family and specifically my grandmother on my father's side so seriously step off when responding to my original post and putting words in my mouth with things I didn't say and that weren't implied. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to me.

someone putting words in your mouth? come on...you are the king of implications and book cover reading...

 

and wow...i dont even care that you are talking about your own family...you just knocked black people everywhere down a peg or two with that disgusting little rant...and actually...all of that was a stereotype...and lastly...no...i dont have any idea what im talking about when it comes to you...nor do i care...but once in a while...you really should take a step down from the pulpit and observe the people around you...you might actually learn something

someone putting words in your mouth? come on...you are the king of implications and book cover reading...

 

and wow...i dont even care that you are talking about your own family...you just knocked black people everywhere down a peg or two with that disgusting little rant...and actually...all of that was a stereotype...and lastly...no...i dont have any idea what im talking about when it comes to you...nor do i care...but once in a while...you really should take a step down from the pulpit and observe the people around you...you might actually learn something

:lol

 

You just gab and don't read. I didn't even mention black people in that, my own first hand experience yet you did and said I was using a stereotype. :lol That would be you buddy.

 

I ignored you for a while and let things be but this is just retarded. One of the worst and least respected posters on this board and there is no more tiring exercise then having a conversation with someone as hard headed as yourself. Back on ignore.

 

Good day/e-life sir.

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government.

 

Clinton and the Republican Congress did work pretty hard to try & revamp the welfare system.

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government.

 

Clinton and the Republican Congress did work pretty hard to try & revamp the welfare system.

I'm aware.

 

My post was basically just using the same twisted logic that pierremvp1 used to prove a point.

 

Political consultants' primary jobs are to win elections. Bottom line. Like I said they get far too much credit/crap for a lot of things. I find it humorous how vilified democrats have made him though. I'm not even a Rove supporter nor do I care but stuff like this irks me.

someone putting words in your mouth? come on...you are the king of implications and book cover reading...

 

and wow...i dont even care that you are talking about your own family...you just knocked black people everywhere down a peg or two with that disgusting little rant...and actually...all of that was a stereotype...and lastly...no...i dont have any idea what im talking about when it comes to you...nor do i care...but once in a while...you really should take a step down from the pulpit and observe the people around you...you might actually learn something

:lol

 

You just gab and don't read. I didn't even mention black people in that, my own first hand experience yet you did and said I was using a stereotype. :lol That would be you buddy.

 

I ignored you for a while and let things be but this is just retarded. One of the worst and least respected posters on this board and there is no more tiring exercise then having a conversation with someone as hard headed as yourself. Back on ignore.

 

Good day/e-life sir.

you are laughable :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

oh and for shits and giggles...look here where its darkened

 

and then look here [/qoute] know about people who don't try to get off welfare because they originally believed the white man is evil, they had no chance to succeed in our society with the resources the government has given us (free school, etc.) so they turn to the government teet and get swept up in to the system and do nothing but try to score crack (by whatever means necessary often times unprotected sex with disease ridden partners) [/qoute]...hmmm...evil white man? scoring crack? unprotected sex with diease ridden partners? if that isnt a gross implication of a certain race with a darker skin from africa...then i just give up...im sorry foxy, you win...come on...big hugs all around for MB.com

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government.

 

Clinton and the Republican Congress did work pretty hard to try & revamp the welfare system.

I'm aware.

 

My post was basically just using the same twisted logic that pierremvp1 used to prove a point.

 

Political consultants' primary jobs are to win elections. Bottom line. Like I said they get far too much credit/crap for a lot of things. I find it humorous how vilified democrats have made him though. I'm not even a Rove supporter nor do I care but stuff like this irks me.

Except I did not use twisted logic. I agreed with you that Rove as far as I know had no hand in decisions regarding Iraq. I responded to you by saying that he did his job well, and his job was to get his guy elected. If his guy isn't elected, there's no blood spilled needlessly. I just think that Rove should bear some of the responsibility of his actions, which did lead to the blood of thousands of brave Americans being spilled. And it continues. There's probably been 1 or 2 added to the death list just since we started this thread. And Rove should feel like he has blood on his hands for masterminding the political victory. It would be easier to visualize if we saw the coffins streaming back home, or the brave medics sticking their hands in a brave soldier's guts, but Rove would not allow this. The bottom line is Rove is a sleazy rat and his guy is incompetent. And by the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independant who's voted for every Republican Presidential candidate since Ford. But I drew the line at the nincompoop and his dangerous advisors. As much as I didn't care for the Democratic choice I thought that it was better than the potential disaster I saw in Bush and the neo-cons. And I was wrong. They're even worse than I expected.

With the logic you apply to Rove I could say that hmmmm Dick Morris has 'blood on his hands' for helping Clinton get re-elected as he continued his policies that created more and more apathy in the poorest slums of this country by telling the poor and minorities of this country the only way they can survive is from the hand of the government.

 

Clinton and the Republican Congress did work pretty hard to try & revamp the welfare system.

I'm aware.

 

My post was basically just using the same twisted logic that pierremvp1 used to prove a point.

 

Political consultants' primary jobs are to win elections. Bottom line. Like I said they get far too much credit/crap for a lot of things. I find it humorous how vilified democrats have made him though. I'm not even a Rove supporter nor do I care but stuff like this irks me.

Except I did not use twisted logic. I agreed with you that Rove as far as I know had no hand in decisions regarding Iraq. I responded to you by saying that he did his job well, and his job was to get his guy elected. If his guy isn't elected, there's no blood spilled needlessly. I just think that Rove should bear some of the responsibility of his actions, which did lead to the blood of thousands of brave Americans being spilled. And it continues. There's probably been 1 or 2 added to the death list just since we started this thread. And Rove should feel like he has blood on his hands for masterminding the political victory. It would be easier to visualize if we saw the coffins streaming back home, or the brave medics sticking their hands in a brave soldier's guts, but Rove would not allow this. The bottom line is Rove is a sleazy rat and his guy is incompetent. And by the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independant who's voted for every Republican Presidential candidate since Ford. But I drew the line at the nincompoop and his dangerous advisors. As much as I didn't care for the Democratic choice I thought that it was better than the potential disaster I saw in Bush and the neo-cons. And I was wrong. They're even worse than I expected.

Thanks for the dramatic language and just restating your original feelings in a slightly different way.

 

You should write a novel with all that prose.

 

Again, with that logic we should start condemning the whole Bush lineage for even living and reproducing because of this percieved 'domino effect' you have described. (In before the dems on here actually agree with this statement).

someone putting words in your mouth? come on...you are the king of implications and book cover reading...

 

and wow...i dont even care that you are talking about your own family...you just knocked black people everywhere down a peg or two with that disgusting little rant...and actually...all of that was a stereotype...and lastly...no...i dont have any idea what im talking about when it comes to you...nor do i care...but once in a while...you really should take a step down from the pulpit and observe the people around you...you might actually learn something

 

Not to nitpick here, but how is it even possible for a personal experience to be a stereotype?

 

...Again, with that logic we should start condemning the whole Bush lineage for even living and reproducing because of this percieved 'domino effect' you have. (In before the dems on here actually agree with this statement).

 

Why stop there? Let's throw some blame on Abe Lincoln for bringing the Republican Party to national prominence.

 

The idea that Rove is partly responsible for Iraq because he helped get Bush elected just boggles my mind.

Based on my personal experience there are a lot of people on these social programs who don't actually deserve the aid they are receiving. What pisses me off is that these people KNOW they don't deserve the aid and openingly mock the program and try to get away with as much as possible.

 

BTW, you are the MB.com Captain of Gross Generalizations.

 

That's faulty logic. I know a lot of rich kids who have never worked a day in their life, are pretty stupid, and get handed everything by their parents. That doesn't mean people who come from wealth are now stupid spoiled kids.

 

The reality is that the Clinton reforms took a ton of people off of welfare. They did it by making a lot of people ineligible. Go look at what is required to get Medicaid. No random stranger without money can go in and pick it up.

 

The poverty problem in this country is ten times more complicated than the silly concept that people who are poor want handouts and just don't try. If we can use personal experience, both myself and my boss, an extremely respected black judge in DC, and my fiancee grew up in lower income communities. All three of us have seen how difficult it can be to break out of it. All three of us have had parents who cared. A lot of people don't. Do people do it? Of course. But the chances are extremely difficult.

 

Take any individual born in this country and put them in an isolated situation.

 

-Give them cracked out parents who don't give a sh*t about their welfare, don't push them to succeed, and are the worst role models in the world.

 

-A community where drug dealers do the best.

 

-Schools with no resources and really bad teachers

 

-A general environment where taking shortcuts and doing bad is allowed and not seen as a big deal.

 

-The absolute removal of discipline by those around

 

Now what is more likely? That he breaks out of that system and does well? Or he ends up having a kid of his own, being cracked out, and the system perpetuating itself?

 

That system keeps perpetuating itself in this country over and over and over again.

 

Does the community need to improve? Yes. But any rational old school republican could tell you how difficutl macrolevel choices can be. Changing an entire community doesn't happen just by saying "black people need to stop being lazy" and "muslims need to stop terrorism." The republican party used to be about economic sensibility in microlevel policy.

 

 

How do we resolve this problem? Not by making silly generalizations about an eternaly complex problem. Your comment is just as bad as anyone saying "we went to Iraq for oil."

 

This country refuses to invest in policies that can help people break out of that system. Fine, get rid of welfare all together. Then close your eyes and hope a miracle happens.

someone putting words in your mouth? come on...you are the king of implications and book cover reading...

 

and wow...i dont even care that you are talking about your own family...you just knocked black people everywhere down a peg or two with that disgusting little rant...and actually...all of that was a stereotype...and lastly...no...i dont have any idea what im talking about when it comes to you...nor do i care...but once in a while...you really should take a step down from the pulpit and observe the people around you...you might actually learn something

 

Not to nitpick here, but how is it even possible for a personal experience to be a stereotype?

 

...Again, with that logic we should start condemning the whole Bush lineage for even living and reproducing because of this percieved 'domino effect' you have. (In before the dems on here actually agree with this statement).

 

Why stop there? Let's throw some blame on Abe Lincoln for bringing the Republican Party to national prominence.

 

The idea that Rove is partly responsible for Iraq because he helped get Bush elected just boggles my mind.Exactly like I said, far too much credit is being given to Rove. I love the people who think of people like Rove as master minded puppeteers pulling all the strings.

 

It is so off base.

Take any individual born in this country and put them in an isolated situation.

 

-Give them cracked out parents who don't give a sh*t about their welfare, don't push them to succeed, and are the worst role models in the world.

 

-A community where drug dealers do the best.

 

-Schools with no resources and really bad teachers

 

-A general environment where taking shortcuts and doing bad is allowed and not seen as a big deal.

 

-The absolute removal of discipline by those around

 

Now what is more likely? That he breaks out of that system and does well? Or he ends up having a kid of his own, being cracked out, and the system perpetuating itself?

 

That system keeps perpetuating itself in this country over and over and over again.

 

Does the community need to improve? Yes. But any rational old school republican could tell you how difficutl macrolevel choices can be. Changing an entire community doesn't happen just by saying "black people need to stop being lazy" and "muslims need to stop terrorism." The republican party used to be about economic sensibility in microlevel policy.

 

How do we resolve this problem? Not by making silly generalizations about an eternaly complex problem. Your comment is just as bad as anyone saying "we went to Iraq for oil."

 

This country refuses to invest in policies that can help people break out of that system. Fine, get rid of welfare all together. Then close your eyes and hope a miracle happens.

The thing is, there is nothing hampering anyone from breaking out.

 

God bless my father for having something deep down inside of him that made him strive to get out of the slums of New York and make something out of his life that included taking advanatge of a free public education and then again work hard to pay his way through a 4-year university out of state. Same can be said for a few of his brothers who more or less did the same thing.

 

How did this happen? I don't have as much of a grasp on it nor do I feel comfortable enough to explain it having not done it first hand. It's a complex issue like you said and making generalizations does nothing.

 

That said, we can't just look at a serious problem as a battle that can never be won. We need to do things to get off wellfare. There is nothing in the current system that motivates or makes people try to get out from under their poverty. Nothing. My grandmother's focus is to get her high and do the bare minimum to survive. The federal government provides that for her. I don't know how much people know about substance abuse or any other type of serious addiction but there is something/somebody called an enabler for almost every person with an addiction. The enabler is the person or thing that enables a person to proceed with their destructive behavior. The federal government acts as an enabler for people who are drug addicted, poor, sexual diesease carriers, single parent homes, etc.

 

The number one thing that brought me to conservative principles is personal responsibilty. That is the number one thing that can transform people from the lowest levels of poverty to a level of prosperity or a reasonable life. My dad was the stereotype black male with no chance to succeed at birth that people think is real. He became a vice president of a branch of his company and has been married for 31 years and raised three sons who went to college. It's not impossible. It's a reality and one that could happen much easier if there was widespread welfare reform in this country. It's sad to me that one party is percieved as the 'charity' party and the only party that can get minorities out from under the foot of the 'evil wealthy' in this nation when it was the principles of another that actually work.

 

The culture that democratic principles have created in this country is seen easily by me when people like my father can be called an Uncle Tom for voting republican and a man like Bill Cosby can be booed and 'disowned' by the 'black community' for advocating literacy and not just rolling over and accepting single parent homes and the never ending cycle of poverty.

 

"I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else and I looked at it and I had no money. And something called parenting said, 'if you get caught with it you?re going to embarrass your mother.' Not 'you?re going to get your butt kicked.' No. 'You?re going to embarrass your family."

- Bill Cosby

I'm thinking he wants in on the next Republican Administration, assuming the GOP wins the next election, and quite honestly, if he wants a political future, tagging along with the Bush Administration has become political suicide. That's just the way it is.