August 15, 200718 yr Hanley was on espn 2 on first take, one of the guys saying he was the best candidate for NL MVP. Good to see some public coverage for his amazing year. Im shocked that ESPN finally noticed him.
August 15, 200718 yr Author Anyone know if someone won MVP without being selected to an all star team before?
August 15, 200718 yr It'd be funny if he wins the MVP even though he wasn't on the All-Star team. This piqued my interest and because I don't know how many places this thread can go I thought I'd post it. Here are the only players to win the MVP in the last 30 years and not have been on the all-star team: 2006: Justin Morneau, Minnesota 1999: Chipper Jones, Atlanta 1996: Juan Gonzalez, Texas 1991: Terry Pendleton, Atlanta 1988: Kirk Gibson, Los Angeles 1979: Willie Stargell, Pittsburgh 1978: Dave Parker, Pittsburgh I don't know what to conclude from that, but it is interesting to say the least. Edit: And I guess the guy above me at least wants to know, so this wasn't for naught.
August 15, 200718 yr That's awesome, Hanley really is a special player, and I'm glad to see he's getting credit.
August 15, 200718 yr It'd be funny if he wins the MVP even though he wasn't on the All-Star team. This piqued my interest and because I don't know how many places this thread can go I thought I'd post it. Here are the only players to win the MVP in the last 30 years and not have been on the all-star team: 2006: Justin Morneau, Minnesota 1999: Chipper Jones, Atlanta 1996: Juan Gonzalez, Texas 1991: Terry Pendleton, Atlanta 1988: Kirk Gibson, Los Angeles 1979: Willie Stargell, Pittsburgh 1978: Dave Parker, Pittsburgh I don't know what to conclude from that, but it is interesting to say the least. Edit: And I guess the guy above me at least wants to know, so this wasn't for naught. I did the rest from '77 - '33 and only two others had the same distinction: 1956: Don Newcombe, Brooklyn 1935: Hank Greenberg, Detroit
August 15, 200718 yr Logically, Hanley should get attention and votes for MVP (including some first place votes). In reality, for someone on a 4th or 5th place team to win MVP, their stats would have to be unbelievable far and away better than everyone else in the league (see Andre Dawson). I'd love to see Hanley finish in the top three in MVP voting but it simply won't happen. There are too many guys having great seasons for better teams (see Prince Fielder).
August 15, 200718 yr Nice job pulling those numbers Fox. Their is one problem though, none of those guys played for the Marlins and that's what will kill Hanley's chances.
August 15, 200718 yr Nice job pulling those numbers Fox. Their is one problem though, none of those guys played for the Marlins and that's what will kill Hanley's chances. Well, I'm not going to really get in to that and I absolutely do not feel there is a bias with the voters against the Marlins but I do think what Trey05Marlins says about a player on a sub par team needing to have a near historic/remarkable season to pull of winning the award to overshadow the shortcomings of his team (the Dawson example being not the best one in my mind because Jack 'The Ripper' Clark got totally screwed in the voting :mischief ) to be very true. The NL winner is going to come out of a team that makes the playoffs (Prince Fielder? Chipper Jones? David Wright? Albert Pujols?).
August 15, 200718 yr Author Nice job pulling those numbers Fox. Their is one problem though, none of those guys played for the Marlins and that's what will kill Hanley's chances. Well, I'm not going to really get in to that and I absolutely do not feel there is a bias with the voters against the Marlins but I do think what Trey05Marlins says about a player on a sub par team needing to have a near historic/remarkable season to pull of winning the award to overshadow the shortcomings of his team (the Dawson example being not the best one in my mind because Jack 'The Ripper' Clark got totally screwed in the voting :mischief ) to be very true. The NL winner is going to come out of a team that makes the playoffs (Prince Fielder? Chipper Jones? David Wright? Albert Pujols?). I really don't think Chipper or Wright will get much consideration, Cabrera is clearly better than both of them, it be absurd if they won. Pujols is having an OK year, not an MVp caliber one. Prince Fielder and Chase Utley are the only two competitors to Hanley and maybe Cabs. However if Milwaukee falls to Chicago in the standings, Prince might lose some votes. PS: If Hanley wins MVP we might get some more fan attention here in south florida and nationally.
August 15, 200718 yr It'd be funny if he wins the MVP even though he wasn't on the All-Star team. This piqued my interest and because I don't know how many places this thread can go I thought I'd post it. Here are the only players to win the MVP in the last 30 years to win a MVP and not have been on the all-star team: 2006: Justin Morneau, Minnesota 1999: Chipper Jones, Atlanta 1996: Juan Gonzalez, Texas 1991: Terry Pendleton, Atlanta 1988: Kirk Gibson, Los Angeles 1979: Willie Stargell, Pittsburgh 1978: Dave Parker, Pittsburgh I don't know what to conclude from that, but it is interesting to say the least. Edit: And I guess the guy above me at least wants to know, so this wasn't for naught. The funny thing about that list is that most of those guy who won had other players who put up much better numbers than they did that season, whereas Hanley's performance this season makes him the most deserving MVP candidate thus far. 2006: Hafner or Jeter > Morneau 1999: Chipper was the best player in the NL that year. 1996: A-Rod, Frank Thomas, McGwire, etc. > Juan Gonzalez 1991: Barry Bonds > Terry Pendleton 1988: Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Andy Van Slyke > Kirk Gibson 1979: Keith Hernandez, Davey Lopes, Dave Kingman, (Lots of people) > Willie Stargell 1978: Parker was the best NL player that year. Previously, the trend seems to have been "Take the best player on the best team" and there's your MVP. I think the birth of the Wild Card has helped people look beyond that simple and wrong formula and value individual performance a lot more (since there's multiple playoff teams now). Nice job pulling those numbers Fox. Their is one problem though, none of those guys played for the Marlins and that's what will kill Hanley's chances. I don't think there's any bias. Outside of Gary Sheffield in 1996, has there been any other Marlin who deserved to win the award? Every single franchise can point to a season in their history where their player got overlooked.
August 15, 200718 yr Nice job pulling those numbers Fox. Their is one problem though, none of those guys played for the Marlins and that's what will kill Hanley's chances. Well, I'm not going to really get in to that and I absolutely do not feel there is a bias with the voters against the Marlins but I do think what Trey05Marlins says about a player on a sub par team needing to have a near historic/remarkable season to pull of winning the award to overshadow the shortcomings of his team (the Dawson example being not the best one in my mind because Jack 'The Ripper' Clark got totally screwed in the voting :mischief ) to be very true. The NL winner is going to come out of a team that makes the playoffs (Prince Fielder? Chipper Jones? David Wright? Albert Pujols?). I really don't think Chipper or Wright will get much consideration, Cabrera is clearly better than both of them, it be absurd if they won. Pujols is having an OK year, not an MVp caliber one. Prince Fielder and Chase Utley are the only two competitors to Hanley and maybe Cabs. However if Milwaukee falls to Chicago in the standings, Prince might lose some votes. PS: If Hanley wins MVP we might get some more fan attention here in south florida and nationally. Chipper: .335/.425/.593/1.019 He will get penalized for missing time but he is the best player on a playoff caliber team and that counts for something with the voters. He won't win because his 'vanity' stats are low (19 HR, 67 RBI) but he is 6th in batting, 3rd in OPS, 3rd in SLG, and 2nd in OBP. Hard to argue against that. I'm not saying who is having the better season or who is better, I'm saying who has the better chance to win the MVP. The Marlins are two games out of last with the Nationals. There is a small chance that either Cabs or Hanley will win it because of that. Just how it is (I don't really disagree with it either).
August 15, 200718 yr In the history of this sport, how many hitters have produced the following lines in one season: .330+ Avg 50+ 2B 50+ SB 30+ HR 200+ Hits 120+ Runs Talk about an all-around threat. Hanley is on pace to challenge those numbers. Seriously, if anyone knows, please tell us.
August 15, 200718 yr The funny thing about that list is that most of those guy who won had other players who put up much better numbers than they did that season, whereas Hanley's performance this season makes him the most deserving MVP candidate thus far. 2006: Hafner or Jeter > Morneau 1999: Chipper was the best player in the NL that year. 1996: A-Rod, Frank Thomas, McGwire, etc. > Juan Gonzalez 1991: Barry Bonds > Terry Pendleton 1988: Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Andy Van Slyke > Kirk Gibson 1979: Keith Hernandez, Davey Lopes, Dave Kingman, (Lots of people) > Willie Stargell 1978: Parker was the best NL player that year. Previously, the trend seems to have been "Take the best player on the best team" and there's your MVP. I think the birth of the Wild Card has helped people look beyond that simple and wrong formula and value individual performance a lot more (since there's multiple playoff teams now). FYI, Ketih Hernandez and Stargell both won in '79.
August 15, 200718 yr The funny thing about that list is that most of those guy who won had other players who put up much better numbers than they did that season, whereas Hanley's performance this season makes him the most deserving MVP candidate thus far. 2006: Hafner or Jeter > Morneau 1999: Chipper was the best player in the NL that year. 1996: A-Rod, Frank Thomas, McGwire, etc. > Juan Gonzalez 1991: Barry Bonds > Terry Pendleton 1988: Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Andy Van Slyke > Kirk Gibson 1979: Keith Hernandez, Davey Lopes, Dave Kingman, (Lots of people) > Willie Stargell 1978: Parker was the best NL player that year. Previously, the trend seems to have been "Take the best player on the best team" and there's your MVP. I think the birth of the Wild Card has helped people look beyond that simple and wrong formula and value individual performance a lot more (since there's multiple playoff teams now). FYI, Ketih Hernandez and Stargell both won in '79. As I was typing that I was thinking to myself "Something looks wrong here," thanks for the clarification. Stargell was still a pretty bad MVP choice though.
August 15, 200718 yr Was 88' the year Gibson hit "the" HR off Eckersley? If so, I wonder if the voting was before or after the HR...
August 15, 200718 yr In the history of this sport, how many hitters have produced the following lines in one season: .330+ Avg 50+ 2B 50+ SB 30+ HR 200+ Hits 120+ Runs Talk about an all-around threat. Hanley is on pace to challenge those numbers. Seriously, if anyone knows, please tell us. I don't think anyone would and/or is debating that (although I hate setting random number bench marks to show the type of season a player is having.) Hanley might not lead the league in a single category (he could be the batting champion) this year and like I described before his 'vanity' stats (HR and RBI) aren't special that again along with the team's results this year will seriously hurt him. A strong argument against a player on a team with a bad record for MVP would be, without him they'd still be in last place, so how valuable is it?
August 15, 200718 yr Was 88' the year Gibson hit "the" HR off Eckersley? If so, I wonder if the voting was before or after the HR... Good point/thought. That'd be interesting to find out. Kirk Gibson is one of the worst MVP candidates of all-time for sure based purely on numbers but I know Gibson got a lot of votes from the word 'valuable' when it came to him being the 'soul' of the Dodgers. I don't agree but thats where a lot of his push came from.
August 15, 200718 yr If Hanley or Miggy doesn't win MVP, something is wrong with the voting. I don't think there's any doubt that Hanley and Cabrera are the 2 most productive teammates in the NL, perhaps even the majors. After All-Star break: Hanley .382 .420 .722 7 HR 26 RBI OPS 1.142 Cabs: .373 .477 .745 11 HR 25 RBI OPS 1.222 Miggy's strikeout to walk ratio (21/20) has helped him. I'm pretty sure his OPS is tops in the majors in the 2nd half. He was 2nd only to Burrell as of yesterday morning, and Pat's is currently 1.153. Then there's this: NL Leaders: Runs Created (Thru Aug. 14, 2007) Rank Player Team Stats 1 Hanley Ramirez Fla 110 2 Miguel Cabrera Fla 109 3 Prince Fielder Mil 105 4 Matt Holliday Col 104 5 Chase Utley Phi 102 And this: VORP: 1. Hanley Ramirez 69.3 2. Magglio Ordonez 66.1 3. Alex Rodriguez 66.1 4. Miguel Cabrera 65.5 5. Chase Utley 54.5 And Cabs is only player in majors in top 5 in all Triple Crown categories.
August 15, 200718 yr In the history of this sport, how many hitters have produced the following lines in one season: .330+ Avg 50+ 2B 50+ SB 30+ HR 200+ Hits 120+ Runs Talk about an all-around threat. Hanley is on pace to challenge those numbers. Seriously, if anyone knows, please tell us. I don't think anyone would and/or is debating that (although I hate setting random number bench marks to show the type of season a player is having.) Hanley might not lead the league in a single category (he could be the batting champion) this year and like I described before his 'vanity' stats (HR and RBI) aren't special that again along with the team's results this year will seriously hurt him. A strong argument against a player on a team with a bad record for MVP would be, without him they'd still be in last place, so how valuable is it? I'm not saying he should be MVP. But you can't ignore this kind of all-around production. There isn't another player in all of baseball that is producing such great numbers in so many different categories. This is not a random number bench mark... 50 doubles, 50 stolen bases, 200 hits, 100+ runs, and .330 average are all pretty impressive by themselves. Add to that the 30homeruns from a leadoff hitter and it is even more amazing.
August 15, 200718 yr I'm definitely not ignoring Hanley's year, pretty much the opposite. My comment on the random benchmarks wasn't really 100% pointing towards what you put and I probably should have left it out.
August 15, 200718 yr If Hanley or Miggy doesn't win MVP, something is wrong with the voting. I don't think there's any doubt that Hanley and Cabrera are the 2 most productive teammates in the NL, perhaps even the majors. After All-Star break: Hanley .382 .420 .722 7 HR 26 RBI OPS 1.142 Cabs: .373 .477 .745 11 HR 25 RBI OPS 1.222 Miggy's strikeout to walk ratio (21/20) has helped him. I'm pretty sure his OPS is tops in the majors in the 2nd half. He was 2nd only to Burrell as of yesterday morning, and Pat's is currently 1.153. Then there's this: NL Leaders: Runs Created (Thru Aug. 14, 2007) Rank Player Team Stats 1 Hanley Ramirez Fla 110 2 Miguel Cabrera Fla 109 3 Prince Fielder Mil 105 4 Matt Holliday Col 104 5 Chase Utley Phi 102 And this: VORP: 1. Hanley Ramirez 69.3 2. Magglio Ordonez 66.1 3. Alex Rodriguez 66.1 4. Miguel Cabrera 65.5 5. Chase Utley 54.5 And Cabs is only player in majors in top 5 in all Triple Crown categories. :drool
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