http://www.miamiherald.com/591/story/216228.html

 

Why OB is lousy site for Marlins

BY Admin LEBOWITZ

The University of Miami football program is forsaking the leaky, creaky, nostalgic dump that is the Orange Bowl for Wayne Huizenga's ruthlessly efficient profit center at the Stadium Formerly Known as Joe Robbie.

History marches briskly. City and county leaders quickly squeezed the sour news of the Canes sad but inevitable departure from the OB into new political lemonade.

 

Millions of tax dollars that had been set aside to renovate the Orange Bowl could now be reallocated, they said, pumping more money and life into the 3,258th proposal to build a 37,000-seat retractable-roof ballpark for the Florida Marlins.

 

Purely from a transportation perspective, the Orange Bowl site is a lousy one.

 

Without serious highway and mass-transit improvements, it would be bad for the Little Havana neighborhood near the OB, bad for the ball club, bad for fans.

 

Access and public transportation are among the primary reasons the Marlins and Major League Baseball have repeatedly pushed for new stadium sites east of Interstate 95 in downtown Miami. But politics and economics have crippled most of the downtown sites proposed in recent years.

 

County Commissioner and former Miami City Manager Carlos Gimenez says local leaders realize the OB site isn't perfect: ``I think it's viable. Viable, not ideal. There are some serious access issues. But it could work.''

 

Pro baseball is a vastly different beast than college football.

 

The Canes played, at most, seven home games each fall, almost always on Saturdays. The Marlins play 81 home dates a year, about 70 percent of them on weekday evenings. This means fans would be fighting early evening, rush-hour traffic to get to Little Havana for a 7:05 p.m. start for 56 or so games a year.

 

Ever try driving west on the Dolphin Expressway (State Road 836) on a weekday afternoon after 4:30 p.m.?

 

Assuming that the plan would include enough on-site parking to accommodate the luxury suite patrons and perhaps another 10,000 or so fans -- and that's a big assumption -- what happens if the team actually starts to draw bigger crowds?

 

The alleged ''charm'' of haggling with Little Havana locals to park on their front lawns -- a rite of passage for UM fans every fall -- isn't going to wear well over a long hot summer of baseball.

 

The bowl's locale, a few blocks south of the Miami River, magnifies the access headaches.

 

In theory, five drawbridges carry vehicles over the river.

 

In reality, one (Northwest Seventh Avenue/Fifth Street) is completely gone and won't be rebuilt until 2011; another (NW 17th Avenue) is so unsafe that the county was forced to close it earlier this month with little notice, and a third (NW 12th Avenue) is being rebuilt and won't reopen until February 2009.

 

And all of the bridges still must open, on demand, for marine vessels.

 

Mass-transit options are pretty slim.

 

What happens to all of the Broward and Palm Beach countybaseball fans who drive Florida's Turnpike to Dolphin Stadium?

 

Tri-Rail isn't much of an option. It's a pain to get from the Miami Airport Station to the Orange Bowl today. Even if Miami-Dade Transit created a straight-shot, game-day shuttle from the Tri-Rail station to the OB, how many baseball fans to the north would use it?

 

Metrorail will only appeal to hard-core urban dwellers. It's a little over a mile -- too far to walk for most pampered, crime-fearing locals -- from the closest Metrorail stations on the north side of the river to the Orange Bowl.

 

Barring some unlikely seismic political changes at County Hall, no one will be trying to shift billions of transit dollars to expand Metrorail near the OB in the near future.

 

What about a streetcar that could shuttle fans from downtown transit hubs?

 

Right now, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz can't muster a three-vote majority of commissioners to support a streetcar in downtown, Wynwood, the Design District and Allapattah -- all on the opposite side of the river from the stadium.

 

A ballpark in downtown would be closer to I-95, Metrorail, Metromover, and a proposed light-rail system on the Florida East Coast corridor that one day could shuttle fans from Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade counties.

 

The economics and politics might be tougher, but an accessible, pedestrian-friendly downtown stadium makes the most sense.

Many of us have been chastised for saying the realities of the OB site here it is in black and white, The Herald states exactly what a few others and I have been saying all along about the OB

The article doesn't mention the access from the 836 going east for one of the reasons the Marlins want a stadium downtown-- the SW Miami-Dade fans.

 

The mass transit problem is a real one. That is the biggest drawback to the OB site.

 

OMGDRAWBRIDGES

Agree with the article on all accounts. Building the park over a mile from I-95 is a mistake and no mass transit. This site isn't even worth it. Some of you are blinded by your impatience. Whatever site the Marlins choose, they will have to live with it for 30-40 years.

 

Lets see...

 

The OB site

 

or

 

San Antonio

 

 

That's an easy decision. There is nothing left downtown.

Agree with the article on all accounts. Building the park over a mile from I-95 is a mistake and no mass transit. This site isn't even worth it. Some of you are blinded by your impatience. Whatever site the Marlins choose, they will have to live with it for 30-40 years.

 

Lets see...

 

The OB site

 

or

 

San Antonio

 

 

That's an easy decision. There is nothing left downtown.

 

THANK YOU! :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

No, believing this team would not relocate if a stadium deal didn't materialize in the next-say year or two is being irrational. What makes you believe MLB will continue to press the same buttons over and over and over in hopes of achieving a different result? The Marlins are a drain on the pockets of other small market teams. How long before those owners are fed up?

 

I'd be the biggest proponent of the GC and Arena South sites if they were feasible. But at the current time they are not. The city commission would approve the GC and the Arena South site is extremely expensive.

Agree with the article on all accounts. Building the park over a mile from I-95 is a mistake and no mass transit. This site isn't even worth it. Some of you are blinded by your impatience. Whatever site the Marlins choose, they will have to live with it for 30-40 years.

 

Lets see...

 

The OB site

 

or

 

San Antonio

 

 

That's an easy decision. There is nothing left downtown.

 

Talk about a loaded comparison.

The bridges thing makes no sense to me. One will open in 2009, and another is scheduled for 2011 (just in time).

 

And it never fails to amaze me that the bridges open "on demand". Granted the river moves some goods (mostly stolen cars and bicycles), but it's nowhere close to the Dodge Island volume. I say lock-em-down from 4 to 8. Low profile boats can still move thru.

Just my two cents,

 

The orange bowl is only a realistic and sustainable option for the team and fans (both corporate and individual) if a 5-10,000 car garage is built on or underneath the stadium land. You have to be able to cater to every employee, premium season ticket holder, corporate season ticketholder and league VIP. Without that, the "experience" will still be second-rate, and I think that's a big part of the problem (or at least perceived problem) at Pro Player.

 

The less accessable the facility, the more likely the same or new bitch fests from Miami will be. Let's be honest, as a fan, Pro Player is a fine place for baseball. No it doesn't have the history of a Yankee or Fenway Park, or the wonderful site-lines of a Petco or Dodger stadium, but it's as good a facility as any of the middle of the pack stadiums (Shea and Tropicana, I'm looking in your direction). The reason the stadium has got to go is the lease is allegedly untenable and the fans from the south, again allegedly, cannot get there in a reasonable manner and so instead choose not to go at all. The OB is not easily accessed, is less likely to attract mid-level fans from the north, and is no more likely to attract fans from the south if it's a continuation of the traffic nightmare that it is once a week for UM games.

 

A shiny new stadium doesn't bring out fans for a sustained period of time, in any market, without quality on the field. Quality on the field doesn't bring out fans in this market. It therefore stands to reason that it's a tremendous leap of faith to assume that "settling" on a site, like the OB, does the Marlins in 2018 any justifiable good.

 

They need a stadium. I want them to get a stadium, badly. But I don't want them to rush and make a mistake (and yes, I realize the irony of 'rush').

You have absolutely zero evidence that relocation is imminent. The Expos' prolonged relocation to DC (a more viable location than San Antonio or Las Vegas could ever hope to be) is a valuable precedent that indicates that baseball teams just don't disappear in the middle of the night. Granted, this situation has been dragging on for years, but there are still multiple parties existing that have the potential to reach a compromise.

 

The Marlins might not find their ideal waterfront spot, but to settle for such a horrid location is ludicrous. If the Marlins, the city of Miami, and the state of Florida aren't going to give the fans a location with an ounce of mass transit or the access to the interstate they are only prolonging the agony and this relocation you speak of.

 

I wouldn't call 1997-today the middle of the night. The issue has become a thorn in everybody's side.

 

If you are MLB would you rather have a small market team with a healthy financial future, or a mid market team that performs like a AAAA team when it comes to making money constantly battling to build a ballpark?

 

Because that's what the Marlins are right now, a major league team producing AAAA revenues.

No, believing this team would not relocate if a stadium deal didn't materialize in the next-say year or two is being irrational. What makes you believe MLB will continue to press the same buttons over and over and over in hopes of achieving a different result? The Marlins are a drain on the pockets of other small market teams. How long before those owners are fed up?

 

I'd be the biggest proponent of the GC and Arena South sites if they were feasible. But at the current time they are not. The city commission would approve the GC and the Arena South site is extremely expensive.

No mass transit/far from I-95 = equally unfeasible

 

Just because a plot of land is there does not mean it will work

 

No land = no stadium.

 

Just because a plot of land isn't there does not mean one will pop up out of thin air.

From what Im understanding there is plenty of room for parking on the OB site so that won't be an issue.

 

Pro Player is fine and dandy for a baseball game (right off the Turnpike) but it lacks one huge component (retractable roof) and it has about 35,000 seats that are unnecessary for a baseball franchise.

 

Don't underestimate the power that a guaranteed rain/lightning free expierience will have on attendance issues.

From what Im understanding there is plenty of room for parking on the OB site so that won't be an issue.

 

Exactly, the OB site is almost 40 acres. A ballpark for 37-38k will take up about 15-16 acres of land. 24-25 acres of land for parking lots or even parking structures is enough.

By the way, MLB and the Marlins didn't mind the OB site one bit when the stadium deal first fell through in 2004-05.

From what Im understanding there is plenty of room for parking on the OB site so that won't be an issue.

 

Pro Player is fine and dandy for a baseball game (right off the Turnpike) but it lacks one huge component (retractable roof) and it has about 35,000 seats that are unnecessary for a baseball franchise.

 

Don't underestimate the power that a guaranteed rain/lightning free expierience will have on attendance issues.

 

From what they've said, there is a 40 acre site at the OB. That should be plenty of room for both the stadium and a sufficient parking lot area. Is it the ideal area? No, but neither is downtown Miami or Hialeah. In South Florida, there really is no "best" site for eveyone. I'd rather the stadium be built in Broward, but that isn't happening. And no, I don't think relocation is an option...yet. However, I don't think MLB is willing to wait that much longer on this though. If the OB is the site, and they can get a deal done there, so be it. Build a great stadium there and make the rest work. I found Dodger Stadium to have pretty poor access(just a few lanes in and out of the parking lots), but they seem to manage out there.

You have absolutely zero evidence that relocation is imminent. The Expos' prolonged relocation to DC (a more viable location than San Antonio or Las Vegas could ever hope to be) is a valuable precedent that indicates that baseball teams just don't disappear in the middle of the night. Granted, this situation has been dragging on for years, but there are still multiple parties existing that have the potential to reach a compromise.

 

The Marlins might not find their ideal waterfront spot, but to settle for such a horrid location is ludicrous. If the Marlins, the city of Miami, and the state of Florida aren't going to give the fans a location with an ounce of mass transit or the access to the interstate they are only prolonging the agony and this relocation you speak of.

 

 

I wouldn't call 1997-today the middle of the night. The issue has become a thorn in everybody's side.

 

If you are MLB would you rather have a small market team with a healthy financial future, or a mid market team that performs like a AAAA team when it comes to making money constantly battling to build a ballpark?

 

Because that's what the Marlins are right now, a major league team producing AAAA revenues.

 

By middle of the night, I mean from this moment in time, forward. You have zero evidence that relocation is imminent. Your logic is no less sensationalist than the articles fed to us by ESPN from time to time. You are talking hypothethical situations, I am talking reality. MLB has shown us recently they are hesitant to move a team to even a sure spot. San Antonio does not have equal backing and the sources of the Marlins revenue deficiency are quite easily identified.

 

 

No matter how many hot tubs you build in that place, no matter how many build-a-bear stands, people will feel to hassled and refuse to come. Learn from all of the new stadium built since the 90s, location is a first priority.

 

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/custom/...0,1930910.story

 

All the stadiums in the 1990s were built in or near decayed downtown areas. That site might have been available in the mid 90s in downtown Miami, but with the amount of development that has gone in the last 7 or so years those sites have already been converted to high rises. The OB is the best site to fit that type of description. It is near the downtown urban core and it is in a "bad" neighborhood with reasonable highway access.

 

What is the route you think the Marlins should take? Stand pat for a few more years while costs go up, land becomes even less available, continue to drain money from other owners' pockets and hope a 15-17 acre site pops up for free in downtown Miami within walking distance of a MetroRail or MetroMover station within walking distance?

 

Don't forget Wayne and the ever approaching end of the lease date in 2011!

 

Yeah, I'm sure the comissioner and the other 29 owners would allow that. :|

 

If MLB really wants a stadium downtown near GC or Arena South, they're going to have to stop playing games and fork over the money themselves. That's the only way I see the Arena South site working.

 

As FAU said, there is no site that will make the entire metro area healthy. The OB site is the best site reasonably available.

Well, everything that is needed to be said about the OB in terms of viability and access has been said by now.

 

However, from where I'm sitting, I do see some similarities between that section of Little Havana going towards the downtown section and the East Village section of San Diego, where the Padres now play.

 

For those who have visited that city, it does look beautiful. However, it was only in the last two decades that development really took off over there. High-rises began to rise in what is considered to be true downtown right around the end of the 1980's. Meanwhile, the East Village was still industrial and several former factories were being used by local artists to work in. One difference is the East Village of San Diego has already had trolley service, which the rest of Miami not downtown could really use.

 

When John Moores began to look for a location to build a new ballpark, he eventually spotted land that was accessible by trolley but has very little in terms of parking. The problem was he knew San Diegans would vote on any major project using public monies (which of course he requested). The public authorities there required that the ownership group invest in an ambitious project (now well underway) in exchange for monies from redevelopment agencies for the stadium. The stadium project was also delayed several times by residents opposed to tax monies going into the stadium.

 

The result has been an ambitious redevelopment project (still ongoing) that has already radically transformed that section of San Diego. The difference between the neighborhood before the new construction and now is noticeable.

 

Now, to connect what I've just said to the situation with the Marlins and the OB, that section of Little Havana sits right across from downtown. Logic tells me that all that development going on over there will eventually spill over to the other side of I-95. It won't be as fast as we would like but that section of Little Havana is ripe for massive redevelopment. If there were any long-term planning being done, there would be a new owner of the Marlins, one much wealthier than Loria. There would be light rail service connecting Little Havana to downtown. Gentrification would slowly happen. The city would agree to give the OB land in exchange for massive private redevelopment a la San Diego's East Village. There would be a traffic plan to get drivers to the ballpark via W. Flagler St. or NW 7st St. Theoretically, there would be a concentration of people wealthy enough to go to several games living in the neighborhood given the right development. Since people from Broward and Palm Beach threaten to stop going if the stadium goes in the city, the Marlins would need more Miami people going. So it would be to their long-term benefit to invest in real estate in the immediate area that would attract new residents with money to spend on ballgames, thereby off-setting any loss of attendance from the north.

My Solution:

 

Build an exit ramp from I-95 to the OB. Lol

Basesloaded:

 

I am familiar with the East Village of San Diego -- in 1997, I lived in an apartment on Island St. about 7 blocks from where Petco now stands. Being born and raised in Miami, I am familiar with Little Havana as well.

 

Your comparison isn't apt. The East Village of San Diego is IN downtown. I used to walk to the north end of downtown (B Street) every morning from the East Village, and it took only 20 minutes to traverse the entire downtown area, from East Village, by Horton Plaza, and to B Street. The distances are close enough that all the businesspeople downtown can easily leave their cars in their office parking lots and just walk to Petco after work. Meaning that after the game, people can go to one of the many clubs and amusements and bars in the Horton Plaza area and in Gaslamp.

 

Little Havana is NOT close enough for ANY pedestrian traffic from downtown. There aren't any clubs, restaurants, bars nearby where people can hang out before or after games. There's little enough going on in downtown Miami (far less than in downtown San Diego), but there's still a lot more entertainment options in downtown Miami than in Little Havana.

 

As for Loria being forced out and the creation of a light rail system, I'd really like to know who your supplier is because it's clear you're smoking something good.

 

:rasta

Well, everything that is needed to be said about the OB in terms of viability and access has been said by now.

 

However, from where I'm sitting, I do see some similarities between that section of Little Havana going towards the downtown section and the East Village section of San Diego, where the Padres now play.

 

For those who have visited that city, it does look beautiful. However, it was only in the last two decades that development really took off over there. High-rises began to rise in what is considered to be true downtown right around the end of the 1980's. Meanwhile, the East Village was still industrial and several former factories were being used by local artists to work in. One difference is the East Village of San Diego has already had trolley service, which the rest of Miami not downtown could really use.

 

When John Moores began to look for a location to build a new ballpark, he eventually spotted land that was accessible by trolley but has very little in terms of parking. The problem was he knew San Diegans would vote on any major project using public monies (which of course he requested). The public authorities there required that the ownership group invest in an ambitious project (now well underway) in exchange for monies from redevelopment agencies for the stadium. The stadium project was also delayed several times by residents opposed to tax monies going into the stadium.

 

The result has been an ambitious redevelopment project (still ongoing) that has already radically transformed that section of San Diego. The difference between the neighborhood before the new construction and now is noticeable.

 

Now, to connect what I've just said to the situation with the Marlins and the OB, that section of Little Havana sits right across from downtown. Logic tells me that all that development going on over there will eventually spill over to the other side of I-95. It won't be as fast as we would like but that section of Little Havana is ripe for massive redevelopment. If there were any long-term planning being done, there would be a new owner of the Marlins, one much wealthier than Loria. There would be light rail service connecting Little Havana to downtown. Gentrification would slowly happen. The city would agree to give the OB land in exchange for massive private redevelopment a la San Diego's East Village. There would be a traffic plan to get drivers to the ballpark via W. Flagler St. or NW 7st St. Theoretically, there would be a concentration of people wealthy enough to go to several games living in the neighborhood given the right development. Since people from Broward and Palm Beach threaten to stop going if the stadium goes in the city, the Marlins would need more Miami people going. So it would be to their long-term benefit to invest in real estate in the immediate area that would attract new residents with money to spend on ballgames, thereby off-setting any loss of attendance from the north.

 

Difference is you can walk to the gas-lamp from Petco and there is a ton of stuff in and around the stadium, it's not as if it was just shoe-horned in a neighborhood. The Marlins site would not be like that in terms of business and community proximity.

Not yet.

well the herald is a lousy paper so i guess they are even

Ok penguino, I'm going to break into Bud Selig's office tomorrow night and steal a memo that will satisfy your needs for what should be considered 'factual.' :rollseyes

Well, everything that is needed to be said about the OB in terms of viability and access has been said by now.

 

However, from where I'm sitting, I do see some similarities between that section of Little Havana going towards the downtown section and the East Village section of San Diego, where the Padres now play.

 

For those who have visited that city, it does look beautiful. However, it was only in the last two decades that development really took off over there. High-rises began to rise in what is considered to be true downtown right around the end of the 1980's. Meanwhile, the East Village was still industrial and several former factories were being used by local artists to work in. One difference is the East Village of San Diego has already had trolley service, which the rest of Miami not downtown could really use.

 

When John Moores began to look for a location to build a new ballpark, he eventually spotted land that was accessible by trolley but has very little in terms of parking. The problem was he knew San Diegans would vote on any major project using public monies (which of course he requested). The public authorities there required that the ownership group invest in an ambitious project (now well underway) in exchange for monies from redevelopment agencies for the stadium. The stadium project was also delayed several times by residents opposed to tax monies going into the stadium.

 

The result has been an ambitious redevelopment project (still ongoing) that has already radically transformed that section of San Diego. The difference between the neighborhood before the new construction and now is noticeable.

 

Now, to connect what I've just said to the situation with the Marlins and the OB, that section of Little Havana sits right across from downtown. Logic tells me that all that development going on over there will eventually spill over to the other side of I-95. It won't be as fast as we would like but that section of Little Havana is ripe for massive redevelopment. If there were any long-term planning being done, there would be a new owner of the Marlins, one much wealthier than Loria. There would be light rail service connecting Little Havana to downtown. Gentrification would slowly happen. The city would agree to give the OB land in exchange for massive private redevelopment a la San Diego's East Village. There would be a traffic plan to get drivers to the ballpark via W. Flagler St. or NW 7st St. Theoretically, there would be a concentration of people wealthy enough to go to several games living in the neighborhood given the right development. Since people from Broward and Palm Beach threaten to stop going if the stadium goes in the city, the Marlins would need more Miami people going. So it would be to their long-term benefit to invest in real estate in the immediate area that would attract new residents with money to spend on ballgames, thereby off-setting any loss of attendance from the north.

 

Difference is you can walk to the gas-lamp from Petco and there is a ton of stuff in and around the stadium, it's not as if it was just shoe-horned in a neighborhood. The Marlins site would not be like that in terms of business and community proximity.

 

Most of the stuff in and around the stadium is a result of the stadium being built there. Same goes for LoDo in Denver,

Ok, so as long as your spidey senses don't tingle I should remain calm and not buy these 'empty threats' from MLB. I am SOOOO going to sleep tonight!

 

 

 

:|