even those top payroll teams have off years...

It should be noted that the Skanks are not guaranteed to make the playoffs yet. And that, in fact, the ones making the biggest contributions to their late-season push are low-rent, farm-raised talent like Robinson Crusoe Cano (1 yr/$490k), Melky White Breasts Cabrera (1 yr/$432k), Terrance and Philip Hughes (not listed on Cot's, likely in the six figures), Shelley Duvall Sandy Duncan (not listed on Cot's, likely in the six figures), and Joba the Hutt Chamberlain (not listed on Cot's, likely in the six figures), and the lesser-paid of their imported players, Chien-Ming Wang (1 yr/$489k compared to Kei Igawa's 4-yr/$20M contract; and no, even I don't dare make fun of his talent).

teams like tampa and pittsburgh will never sniff a world series title, nevermind the playoffs until their is a salary cap in place...sports should be about playing on a level playing field, on and off the diamond, arena, or football field

teams like tampa and pittsburgh will never sniff a world series title, nevermind the playoffs until their is a salary cap in place...sports should be about playing on a level playing field, on and off the diamond, arena, or football field

Even with a salary cap the DRays wont make the playoffs without a salary floor to go along with it. The cap does very little without the floor. Without the floor they will continue pocketing the revenue sharing money. They've been doing it long before Loria.

teams like tampa and pittsburgh will never sniff a world series title, nevermind the playoffs until their is a salary cap in place...sports should be about playing on a level playing field, on and off the diamond, arena, or football field

Even with a salary cap the DRays wont make the playoffs without a salary floor to go along with it. The cap does very little without the floor. Without the floor they will continue pocketing the revenue sharing money. They've been doing it long before Loria.

i agree...the cap needs to go both ways...you see it with the organizations of other sports...a quality organization doesnt need all the money in the world be successful...it needs good people from top to bottom...and that is something baseball is failing to realize

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

I think one of the biggest things that needs to be done is, as Lou said, is to institue a salary structure in the draft. It's f***ed up that teams like the Yankees and Red Soxs can draft better players later than worse teams because they can afford the player's demands.

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

If the cap was $120 million then the Yankees wouldn't be able to compile as much a talent as they do without the cap. I still think the floor is more important than the cap but I doubt the the players union will ever allow a floor so probably nothing will change.

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

If the cap was $120 million then the Yankees wouldn't be able to compile as much a talent as they do without the cap. I still think the floor is more important than the cap but I doubt the the players union will ever allow a floor so probably nothing will change.

 

Draft?

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

If the cap was $120 million then the Yankees wouldn't be able to compile as much a talent as they do without the cap. I still think the floor is more important than the cap but I doubt the the players union will ever allow a floor so probably nothing will change.

True. And that extra $100M can buy a lot. Including the correction of some mistakes. But the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Mets, etc. would hold significant advantages over the rest of the league just as they already do. And seeing how those teams have not dominated the league or even their divisions*, is it really worth it? There's administrative costs to adding a salary cap or salary floor. There's negotiations that would have to be held between MLBPA, MLB and segments of MLB clubs. And no guarantee that forcing the Yankees to spend less and/or the Devil Rays to spend more will change anything.

 

* The reason why the Yankees and Red Sox has as much to do with the Orioles and Blue Jays having to beat BOTH the Yankees and Red Sox to make the playoffs as much as concerning themselves with the conflicting goals of developing talent, appealing to fans, and making money. For example, the Orioles have signed high-profile free agents to attract fans, but have not been able to combine that with the development of pitching or the signing of talented draft picks. Camden Yards, $100M payroll and the Baltimore/DC/VA media market results nothing without a plan to see it through.

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

If the cap was $120 million then the Yankees wouldn't be able to compile as much a talent as they do without the cap. I still think the floor is more important than the cap but I doubt the the players union will ever allow a floor so probably nothing will change.

 

Starting to come around to your floor thoughts. That players union is pretty strong. But I believe you are wrong with your theory. I doubt very much they have a problem with a floor, it would mean better pay for the players. But they would have a problem with a cap, so that will never happen.

The cap won't keep teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. from compiling talent. Those teams have other things going for them.

Nor will a salary floor make the Pirates and Devil Rays adjust their intent towards winning ballgames. Granted, incentives NEED to be created for them to do so.

If the cap was $120 million then the Yankees wouldn't be able to compile as much a talent as they do without the cap. I still think the floor is more important than the cap but I doubt the the players union will ever allow a floor so probably nothing will change.

 

Starting to come around to your floor thoughts. That players union is pretty strong. But I believe you are wrong with your theory. I doubt very much they have a problem with a floor, it would mean better pay for the players. But they would have a problem with a cap, so that will never happen.

 

I agree the MLBPA will have a big problem with a salary cap. But some things are worth fighting for, even if it means a strike. The present system is just totally unacceptable.

 

As an Oriole fan, I see my team perpetually shut out of the playoffs in the AL East, with the Yankees buying their way in for the 13th consecutive year if they make it in 2007. And the Red Sox are right behind them in payroll. The AL East is absolutely the worst division in MLB to be in for Toronto, Baltimore, and Tampa Bay.

 

Frankly I'd be willing to go without MLB for two years if there were a long strike, if the system was fixed so that all teams had a fair chance. So that no team would get a pass into the playoffs each year, as the Yankees now do. If the MLBPA gave a hoot about fair competition, they would not want the present system to continue.

2 years?!?

 

That would kill the sport. Just this year MLB is finally breaking the 94 per game average attendance total.

 

The Orioles problems are much deeper than just the Red Sox and Yankees outspending everyone.

No offense (And I doubt you'll take any because I know most Oriole fans feel the same way) but the reason the Orioles can't compete is the incompetence of the front office.

 

The orioles have a 93, that's NINE-THREE, million dollar pay roll this year. Money isn't their problem. A Salary Cap won't make the AL east more competitive when the front office is so inept. And I feel that goes for all of baseball, not just the AL east.

go without MLB for two years if there were a long strike, if the system was fixed so that all teams had a fair chance. So that no team would get a pass into the playoffs each year, as the Yankees now do. If the MLBPA gave a hoot about fair competition, they would not want the present system to continue.

I want to interject slightly here to expand. The MLBPA just want the players to make as much money as possible. Competition, eh? The problem is the large markets don't want a cap and the small markets don't want the floor for obvious reasons. It's about the money.

 

This is why you have to make a FLOOR and a CEILING, so everyone shares the burden. The money NYY, Bos, LAA, will not be spending on player's salaries, will be made up by FLA, TB, PITT, KC, etc, each raising their minimums to the floor. Club controlled years will have to go up, maybe substantially. I don't think competition is the right word, I think the union protecting monetarily the interests of the players is all they care about, and they are worried with caps that the overall net cash made by MLB player's will go down. If the commish's office can guarantee through caps, floors, maybe NBA style luxury taxes and cap loopholes (signing own player, exceptions, etc), and a raising of the minimum, that player's salaries will remain constant (and increase to typical inflation patterns) the union will not have ANY problem with instituting caps. This would probably be very easy to do by putting in floors. And it'll also do other accommodating things, like Steinbrenner and Angelos not getting immensely pissed off their revenue sharing money is going right into Loria's pocket.

 

Of course, the other side of the argument is. Baseball makes more money when the Yankees and Red Sox meet in the ALCS, versus the Tigers and Athletics. This would certainly level the playing field and give everyone a shot, but does baseball really want that?

 

Likewise with the draft. The player's union wants the special high school and college guys to get paid. Everyone needs to share the burden here. MLB just needs to add up the last 20 drafts or whatever, show the average inflation of cash in the first round, and just spread this out over every pick. SD would still have to pay Verlander a lot of money, but it wouldn't be an outrageous demand and threat to lose the player. And you'd never again have teams passing on talent for money reasons as the signing bonus and contracts would be pre-slotted by pick in draft. This would have the added benefit, of pissing Scott Boras off.

 

Also, if you want to get back to the competition idea. Baseball needs to have an international draft for all these 16 year olds that get gobbled up by signing bonuses, or defects from Cuba, and what not. Also, the posting system in Japan needs to be drastically improved. I really haven't thought about that one though and how to even approach trying to fix it, but it's going to be a huge problem if the Sox and Yanks get every new Dice-K, Matsui, Iwamura, and Ichiro every 2-3 years here on out.

The organization has more problems than just Angelos. They haven't had a decent GM for more than a decade. Their scouts are subpar. The only proven homegrown talent as of late has been Roberts and Markakis.

how about that Bedard guy?.... Chris Ray is pretty cool too

Why would MLBPA agree when they already receive a constant increase well over inflation? MarlinLou, that's about as silly of an argument as your suggestion that all players are willing to have their arbitration years bought out. MLBPA is not going to agree to a system that not only harms them, but locks them into a set rate of any gain. The history of free agency shows that players have benefited following huge increases to superstars' salaries. By setting a floor and ceiling, you're not just leveling things off. You're cutting the MLBPA's head off. No longer are the A-Rods able to push the boundaries of contract terms, 2nd-tier stars and role players are unable to benefit from the competition for their services. And you're proposing that they simultaneously agree to sell out younger players to the reserve clause for a longer period? And changes to amateur bonuses? And elimination of international free agency? What do you take MLBPA for?

 

Like I said before, and to what benefit? There's only a few teams that haven't competed in recent years under the present system. And 99% of those cases mirror the Orioles and their incompetence or the Pirates and their refusal to improve. Only 1% resemble the Devil Rays and their impossible odds.

 

You'd likely improve competitive balance more by taking less extreme measures, like reintroducing a balanced schedule or offering a 2nd or 3rd wild card spot. Or changing revenue sharing to offer incentives to spend and/or win rather than hide revenue. And I guarantee you, you'd find the MLBPA more receptive to those changes than to anything you've suggested.

Why would MLBPA agree when they already receive a constant increase well over inflation? MarlinLou, that's about as silly of an argument as your suggestion that all players are willing to have their arbitration years bought out. MLBPA is not going to agree to a system that not only harms them, but locks them into a set rate of any gain. The history of free agency shows that players have benefited following huge increases to superstars' salaries. By setting a floor and ceiling, you're not just leveling things off. You're cutting the MLBPA's head off. No longer are the A-Rods able to push the boundaries of contract terms, 2nd-tier stars and role players are unable to benefit from the competition for their services. And you're proposing that they simultaneously agree to sell out younger players to the reserve clause for a longer period? And changes to amateur bonuses? And elimination of international free agency? What do you take MLBPA for?

 

Like I said before, and to what benefit? There's only a few teams that haven't competed in recent years under the present system. And 99% of those cases mirror the Orioles and their incompetence or the Pirates and their refusal to improve. Only 1% resemble the Devil Rays and their impossible odds.

 

You'd likely improve competitive balance more by taking less extreme measures, like reintroducing a balanced schedule or offering a 2nd or 3rd wild card spot. Or changing revenue sharing to offer incentives to spend and/or win rather than hide revenue. And I guarantee you, you'd find the MLBPA more receptive to those changes than to anything you've suggested.

First of all, you are 100% wrong about arbitration. Don't even start up on that again. It's really laughable that you think young player's don't want guaranteed contracts and choose to go year-year. For example, "Hey Hanley, here's a 4/$24 guaranteed contract to buy out your arbitration years right now. This is a lot more money than Jimmy Rollins, Jose Reyes, and Michael Young all made in years 3-6 of their careers and is incredibly respectful for your resume." "No thanks Admin. I'm never going to get hurt. There is no chance of regression because I'm so amazing so I'm going to hope to get an extra $3-5 million dollars over my arbitration years going year to year versus signing your guaranteed deal right now. I know I've only made about $750,000 as a professional right now and I have no financial security in my life, but I really want to push the envelope. That potential extra money 2-3 years down the road makes me feel really good." Awesome.

 

Second, you obviously do not understand what a cap/floor system would do. A Cap/Floor system is not changing the total amount of money made by players, or effecting any record signings. Caps/Floors move up and down with inflation. Whatever the current rate it is with baseball contracts, just needs to be accounted for in the ceiling. All this is doing is spreading out all of the money made by all the player's in baseball out so we don't have $200 million-$30 million gaps. The money not spent by the Yankees and Red Sox, will be made up by the smaller market teams, like the Marlins, who are nickel and dime-ing all their players for no reason besides to increase the owner's profit. Unfair for the small teams to pay? TOUGH. They need to share the burden of fixing the sport, just as much as the large market teams need too. There is so much revenue sharing, this shouldn't be any sort of problem. All it does is knock down, basically, the Yanks and Sox, and gives everyone else a legitimate shot to sign free agents. Also, you think 2nd tier stars and role players wouldn't benefit? They'd probably be the TOP benefactors. Teams would be signing mid-level free agents all the time to get over the floor, and even better, the minimum would surely rise with the spreading out the wealth of baseball versus A-Rod potentially making more than some teams. As for 'amateur' players in the draft. It's the same amount of money. The MLBPA cares about the money, not who gets it. I bet they'd prefer the money to be spread out more evenly among it's young players, who have not proved anything. It's unfair Boras can screw people with Matt Wieters where he drops in the draft a few slots, yet makes more money than practically everyone, or whoever represents Miller (DET). That's BS. It's so easy to add up the amount of money in contracts and bonuses over an annual span, see how much inflation is normal, and then apply this to a draft slotting scheme. The players are cumulatively not losing any money in this scheme, and it gives San Diego a chance to draft Justin Verlander. The same goes with international free agency/posting system. This I do not have an answer for, as I did say above, but there has to be a way where Houston, Milwaukee, or Cleveland can make an honest bid to Dice-K versus the Yanks and Red Sox throwing retarded amounts of money for him.

 

My favorite part though, Or changing revenue sharing to offer incentives to spend and/or win rather than hide revenue. What do you think a floor accomplishes? Force the spending. :thumbup

Free Market economy, my friend. Keep socialism out of America's game.

Bless you.

No offense (And I doubt you'll take any because I know most Oriole fans feel the same way) but the reason the Orioles can't compete is the incompetence of the front office.

 

The orioles have a 93, that's NINE-THREE, million dollar pay roll this year. Money isn't their problem. A Salary Cap won't make the AL east more competitive when the front office is so inept. And I feel that goes for all of baseball, not just the AL east.

 

The Yankees have a payroll more than twice that of the Orioles. The Red Sox payroll is 50% higher.

 

I will agree the Orioles front office has been incompetent. Flanagan was a big disappointment to me, with some of the decisions he made. He wasted millions of Angelos' money on a bullpen "upgrade" last winter that ended up in a disaster. And now we are stuck with these huge contracts through 09 in some cases. Hopefully the new acting GM Andy MacPhail can do better.

 

But the Orioles biggest problem isn't the front office. It is an unfair system which perpetually gives the Yankees and Red Sox an unfair advantage at the beginning of the year, due to their financial advantages.

 

The Orioles could have an excellent front office, and they would still be at a disadvantage in the AL East. With their payroll advantages the Yankees will attract not only good players, but the cream of the crop in front office personnel, who will want to work with the stacked deck that the Yankees are dealt every year.

 

It's like playing a game of Monopoly every year, and giving one player (the Yankees) twice as much money to start with, and another (the Red Sox) 50% more than you have. . Is it possible to beat the odds and win the game with so much less money to start? Perhaps once in a while, but not very often, and the player with the most money will come out on top most of the time. And the analogy becomes clear when you consider this will be the Yankees 13th consecutive year in the playoffs.

Once again, you're assuming that people would agree to your plan. More likely, people will not consider your plan at all because they've got their own. Cabrera and Ramirez are confident young stars. MLBPA is a powerful union. The large revenue clubs form a strong voting block. MLB is breaking attendance records. They don't share your fears.

 

Why would MLBPA subject itself to a rate of inflation when a constant rate already exists (what period outside of collusion or work stoppages have the trend of larger saalries been interrupted?) plus unexpected spurts suit them well? Why would the MLBPA give up the possibility of ARod and 2001/2 offseason pushing the entire salary structure beyond its previous boundaries? MLBPA fights over the stupidiest things, and you're thinking they're going to give up ALL that? And seeing as your proposals would call for resolution within MLB ranks (the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs, Phillies already make up 7 no votes), MLB prepares a unified position, MLBPA will be mobilized to fight the proposal.

 

By forcing a salary floor, you are not forcing teams to spend to better themselves. You are forcing teams to spend to avoid penalties. The revenue sharing system at present is what keeps the Pirates, Marlins, etc. from retaining young stars and quality players. The revenues produced by a quality player on a losing place team is often less he costs them in salary and revenue sharing transfers. That's the problem. Not the Pirates, Marlins. etc.'s refusal to spend over $X million dollars. You set a floor, and they'll refuse to spend over that amount they avoid penalties, and still make no effort to retain players or sign new players to fight for 3rd or 2nd place.

I thought I posted this question here already, but since apparently not - here it goes:

 

What about the Braves? They may not win the division this year or last year, but they did string together what? 14 or 15 division titles? I mean they had been champions of their division since they had been in the NL West.

Were they, for all those years, simply outspending the rest of the NL to ensure a playoff spot? I ask this because I really don't know the answer, and figure that if their teams were actually built on maintaining a core group of talent (and yes that does cost some money) as opposed to simply buying every big name FA and effectively outspending the competition, it could just as well disprove this theory.

I thought I posted this question here already, but since apparently not - here it goes:

 

What about the Braves? They may not win the division this year or last year, but they did string together what? 14 or 15 division titles? I mean they had been champions of their division since they had been in the NL West.

Were they, for all those years, simply outspending the rest of the NL to ensure a playoff spot? I ask this because I really don't know the answer, and figure that if their teams were actually built on maintaining a core group of talent (and yes that does cost some money) as opposed to simply buying every big name FA and effectively outspending the competition, it could just as well disprove this theory.

 

They didn't "outspend" but they certainly spent their fair share. Ted Turner made sure of that.

No offense (And I doubt you'll take any because I know most Oriole fans feel the same way) but the reason the Orioles can't compete is the incompetence of the front office.

 

The orioles have a 93, that's NINE-THREE, million dollar pay roll this year. Money isn't their problem. A Salary Cap won't make the AL east more competitive when the front office is so inept. And I feel that goes for all of baseball, not just the AL east.

 

The Yankees have a payroll more than twice that of the Orioles. The Red Sox payroll is 50% higher.

 

I will agree the Orioles front office has been incompetent. Flanagan was a big disappointment to me, with some of the decisions he made. He wasted millions of Angelos' money on a bullpen "upgrade" last winter that ended up in a disaster. And now we are stuck with these huge contracts through 09 in some cases. Hopefully the new acting GM Andy MacPhail can do better.

 

But the Orioles biggest problem isn't the front office. It is an unfair system which perpetually gives the Yankees and Red Sox an unfair advantage at the beginning of the year, due to their financial advantages.

 

The Orioles could have an excellent front office, and they would still be at a disadvantage in the AL East. With their payroll advantages the Yankees will attract not only good players, but the cream of the crop in front office personnel, who will want to work with the stacked deck that the Yankees are dealt every year.

 

It's like playing a game of Monopoly every year, and giving one player (the Yankees) twice as much money to start with, and another (the Red Sox) 50% more than you have. . Is it possible to beat the odds and win the game with so much less money to start? Perhaps once in a while, but not very often, and the player with the most money will come out on top most of the time. And the analogy becomes clear when you consider this will be the Yankees 13th consecutive year in the playoffs.

what about the 80s when the Yankees were outspending everybody and didn't win crap!!! agreed the Yanks have a sick advantage in TV revenue and their own network but thats the breaks and Steingrabber shrewdly made all that happen, its not what you spend but how u spend it....remember when he bought the Yanks they weren't worth a bucket of balls and i bet the O's could be plenty competitive when a compentant front office (look at the Marlins and the A's,,,and Twins)