Spring Training stats don't mean anything. I wouldn't compare Miller and Willis until the regular season starts.

 

I have been pleased with Willis' velocity, but a little concerned about his lack of control. He doesn't appear to have consistent mechanics. He really has the same problem Miller has - no consistent mechanics. Miller had no control (and weak secondary pitches) when he pitched for the Tigers last year. I don't think his Spring Training stats indicate he has put those problems behind him.

Spring Training stats don't mean anything. I wouldn't compare Miller and Willis until the regular season starts.

 

I have been pleased with Willis' velocity, but a little concerned about his lack of control. He doesn't appear to have consistent mechanics. He really has the same problem Miller has - no consistent mechanics. Miller had no control (and weak secondary pitches) when he pitched for the Tigers last year. I don't think his Spring Training stats indicate he has put those problems behind him.

 

I would think Millers mechanics are easier to correct.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

 

7 WALKS > A few.

 

Jeez, that's a gross mischaracterization of his performance.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

 

He walked a career high 7 batters and barely threw half his pitches for strikes. The two guys he left on base also scored after he got pulled.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

 

He walked a career high 7 batters and barely through half his pitches for strikes. The two guys he left on base also scored after he got pulled.

And sadly, that still makes it a better outing than Miller had. 3ER on 1H and 7BB in 5IP vs 5ER on 8H and 2BB in 4.1IP including 1 HR.

I'll take Miller over Willis this year and for the next decade, thanks.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

 

He walked a career high 7 batters and barely through half his pitches for strikes. The two guys he left on base also scored after he got pulled.

And sadly, that still makes it a better outing than Miller had. 3ER on 1H and 7BB in 5IP vs 5ER on 8H and 2BB in 4.1IP including 1 HR.

 

Yes but Willis has been pitching in the big leagues for 5 years...he doesn't have an excuse for not throwing strikes. Besides, you can't compare 2 pitchers based on their season debuts. Let alone a rookie who still has to figure things out compared to an established major league pitcher.

At least Miller struck people out.

Strikeouts and walks are the two most important peripheral stats in predicting pitcher performance.

While I think this whole topic was silly to discuss when brought up in this thread as it still now just an update:

 

Miller gave up 5 ER on 8 H in 4.1 IP in his first start.

 

Dontrelle was pulled from his first start a few minutes ago, after having thrown 5 IP of no hit baseball. Was pulled in the 6th with no outs after giving up 2 BB and then 1 run on the the first hit, and RBI double by Thome. He did have some walks earlier in the game as well though.

 

He walked a career high 7 batters and barely through half his pitches for strikes. The two guys he left on base also scored after he got pulled.

And sadly, that still makes it a better outing than Miller had. 3ER on 1H and 7BB in 5IP vs 5ER on 8H and 2BB in 4.1IP including 1 HR.

 

Yes but Willis has been pitching in the big leagues for 5 years...he doesn't have an excuse for not throwing strikes. Besides, you can't compare 2 pitchers based on their season debuts. Let alone a rookie who still has to figure things out compared to an established major league pitcher.

Again, let me restate what I thought I clearly stated when I brought this up, I THINK IT IS SILLY TO MAKE ANYTHING OF COMPARISONS AT THIS POINT. I am NOT SAYING unequivocally that Dontrelle is an infinitely better pitcher who will always be better and that Detroit won this trade hands down. I only think it is silly to have ever even suggested, as this thread initially did, that Dontrelle is so far gone and Miller is so well prepared to go that not only did we win in terms of money, commitment, and future performance, but that Miller will with a certainty be a better pitcher - nay, he is already a better pitcher.

 

I'll agree that Dontrelle didn't have a good performance, and you can say about excuses or indicators about future performance, and that's all well and fine. BUT, I don't think people are being realistic if they think Miller is going to come out and outperform a guy who has won 10 games or more every year for the last 5 and has a 22-win season behind him. Yes, he struggled last year. So did the whole team. But I don't 2007 was any more indicative of Dontrelle's pitching abilities than 2005 was indicative of Mike Lowell's hitting ability.

 

Miller may very well turn out to be much better, but being realistic, he currently shouldn't even be pitching at this level, and if a few more of our SP were healthy, he would be in the minors. Dontrelle could legitimately be at least top 3 SP on most teams' rotation if not a #1 SP in a lot of places. And there are meaningful reasons why.

That was the luckiest I've ever seen someone pitch. D-Train pitched 5 sh*tty innings and managed to luck his way into not giving up a hit. He didn't strike out a single batter, every single batter just hit the ball to the wrong spot. He ended throwing more than 90 pitches, with 50% being balls. He walked SEVEN BATTERS!

 

His line might be better than Miller's, but Miller pitched better than Willis. He was just rediculously lucky.

That was the luckiest I've ever seen someone pitch. D-Train pitched 5 sh*tty innings and managed to luck his way into not giving up a hit. He didn't strike out a single batter, every single batter just hit the ball to the wrong spot. He ended throwing more than 90 pitches, with 50% being balls. He walked SEVEN BATTERS!

 

His line might be better than Miller's, but Miller pitched better than Willis. He was just rediculously lucky.

I'm sure he'll be luckier all season.

That was the luckiest I've ever seen someone pitch. D-Train pitched 5 sh*tty innings and managed to luck his way into not giving up a hit. He didn't strike out a single batter, every single batter just hit the ball to the wrong spot. He ended throwing more than 90 pitches, with 50% being balls. He walked SEVEN BATTERS!

 

His line might be better than Miller's, but Miller pitched better than Willis. He was just rediculously lucky.

I'm sure he'll be luckier all season.

That was the luckiest I've ever seen someone pitch. D-Train pitched 5 sh*tty innings and managed to luck his way into not giving up a hit. He didn't strike out a single batter, every single batter just hit the ball to the wrong spot. He ended throwing more than 90 pitches, with 50% being balls. He walked SEVEN BATTERS!

 

His line might be better than Miller's, but Miller pitched better than Willis. He was just rediculously lucky.

 

I was going to not mention his performance today, but it was ugly for Willis and Detroit has to be banging their collective heads against a wall moaning thirty-million-dollars, thirty-million-dollars..."

 

Just 'cause i love the guy so (and he's in the AL) I really hope he turns it around by if he flames out the Tigers essentially wind up paying $193 million for Cabrera.

Why do people compare Dontrelle to Mike Lowell in their way of predicting how Dontrelle will emerge again?

 

Dontrelle is a pitcher...a pitcher who moved from the NL (in a pitchers park...and he's been mediocre here for not 1, but 2 years) to the AL (where he will now face better lineups, and Left-Center is no longer 434 ft. away).

 

Mike Lowell, on the other hand, (a doubles hitter) gets better pitches to hit (b/c after they pitch around Papi and Manny, he sees better pitches)...not only that, Mike Lowell has that Green Monster in LF, where he feeds off, hitting all the doubles.

 

Lets put it this way...Dontrelle's K/BB ratio has gotten worse every year, and so has his WHIP. And now he's going to a tougher hitting league, and a tougher park to pitch in. So how do you figure that he will automatically do better than Andrew Miller?

 

PERHAPS, Dontrelle was just never really as great as we made him out to be. PERHAPS, people have finally caught on to his delivery. Whatever it is...facts are facts. Dontrelle Willis has gotten WORSE EVERY YEAR since entering the big leagues.

 

So before you say, "Dontrelle will automatically do better than Andrew Miller" this year, why don't we just let this play out and see what happens?

Why do people compare Dontrelle to Mike Lowell in their way of predicting how Dontrelle will emerge again?

 

Dontrelle is a pitcher...a pitcher who moved from the NL (in a pitchers park...and he's been mediocre here for not 1, but 2 years) to the AL (where he will now face better lineups, and Left-Center is no longer 434 ft. away).

 

Mike Lowell, on the other hand, (a doubles hitter) gets better pitches to hit (b/c after they pitch around Papi and Manny, he sees better pitches)...not only that, Mike Lowell has that Green Monster in LF, where he feeds off, hitting all the doubles.

 

Lets put it this way...Dontrelle's K/BB ratio has gotten worse every year, and so has his WHIP. And now he's going to a tougher hitting league, and a tougher park to pitch in. So how do you figure that he will automatically do better than Andrew Miller?

 

PERHAPS, Dontrelle was just never really as great as we made him out to be. PERHAPS, people have finally caught on to his delivery. Whatever it is...facts are facts. Dontrelle Willis has gotten WORSE EVERY YEAR since entering the big leagues.

 

So before you say, "Dontrelle will automatically do better than Andrew Miller" this year, why don't we just let this play out and see what happens?

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's nice that you can break down all the reasons for Lowell's post 2005 success now. But how many of you predicted he would be fine after hitting below 240 that year? I did. I wasn't on the board back then, but I thought he was dumped on way too much for what turned out to only be one year of being off, and I was sure he'd be fine in Boston. Players get hot and go into slumps. Sometimes they last a while.

 

So if it makes you feel better to believe that Dontrelle is a washed up 26 year old with nothing left, bound by destiny to an ERA over 6, go ahead.

 

And if you'd bother to read my entire post(s) you might actually realize that I have been saying we should let it play out and see what happens. I simply think that the opposite assumption made initially in this thread, that Miller will outperform Dontrelle from the get-go here in 2008, was not only insanely premature being based on ST games, but it's very unlikely.

 

Now sure, I'd love for Miller to perform well, throw a few no hitters and so forth and so on doing amazing wonderful things. I cheer for everyone on the Marlins but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that the trade we made with the Tigers makes us a better team this year in ANY aspect, except for MAYBE in CF defense, and that'll only be if/when Maybin is called up.

 

And the reason I (or any one else would) bring up Lowell is simple - people around here have tendency to think that if a player who has been good before has a bad year that their career is over. Lowell had a bad year in 05, and Dontrelle had a bad year in 07. And as well thought out as you may think it is, your logic explaining Lowell's performance doesn't add up. If playing at Fenway vs Dolphin Stadium made that much a difference then he would've never put up the numbers he did here in 03 & 04, and it would also mean everyone on the Red Soxs avg should be about 50pts higher than it would otherwise be, assuming they have enough pop to hit the walls. As much as you may want to analyze parks and personnel, it is as simple as this: He played poorly in 05, and played well before and since. And people do that a lot to varying degrees. Lowell is a nice and extreme example of it.

Dontrelle would be a killer LOOGY.

Why do people compare Dontrelle to Mike Lowell in their way of predicting how Dontrelle will emerge again?

 

Dontrelle is a pitcher...a pitcher who moved from the NL (in a pitchers park...and he's been mediocre here for not 1, but 2 years) to the AL (where he will now face better lineups, and Left-Center is no longer 434 ft. away).

 

Mike Lowell, on the other hand, (a doubles hitter) gets better pitches to hit (b/c after they pitch around Papi and Manny, he sees better pitches)...not only that, Mike Lowell has that Green Monster in LF, where he feeds off, hitting all the doubles.

 

Lets put it this way...Dontrelle's K/BB ratio has gotten worse every year, and so has his WHIP. And now he's going to a tougher hitting league, and a tougher park to pitch in. So how do you figure that he will automatically do better than Andrew Miller?

 

PERHAPS, Dontrelle was just never really as great as we made him out to be. PERHAPS, people have finally caught on to his delivery. Whatever it is...facts are facts. Dontrelle Willis has gotten WORSE EVERY YEAR since entering the big leagues.

 

So before you say, "Dontrelle will automatically do better than Andrew Miller" this year, why don't we just let this play out and see what happens?

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's nice that you can break down all the reasons for Lowell's post 2005 success now. But how many of you predicted he would be fine after hitting below 240 that year? I did. I wasn't on the board back then, but I thought he was dumped on way too much for what turned out to only be one year of being off, and I was sure he'd be fine in Boston. Players get hot and go into slumps. Sometimes they last a while.

 

So if it makes you feel better to believe that Dontrelle is a washed up 26 year old with nothing left, bound by destiny to an ERA over 6, go ahead.

 

And if you'd bother to read my entire post(s) you might actually realize that I have been saying we should let it play out and see what happens. I simply think that the opposite assumption made initially in this thread, that Miller will outperform Dontrelle from the get-go here in 2008, was not only insanely premature being based on ST games, but it's very unlikely.

 

Now sure, I'd love for Miller to perform well, throw a few no hitters and so forth and so on doing amazing wonderful things. I cheer for everyone on the Marlins but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that the trade we made with the Tigers makes us a better team this year in ANY aspect, except for MAYBE in CF defense, and that'll only be if/when Maybin is called up.

 

And the reason I (or any one else would) bring up Lowell is simple - people around here have tendency to think that if a player who has been good before has a bad year that their career is over. Lowell had a bad year in 05, and Dontrelle had a bad year in 07. And as well thought out as you may think it is, your logic explaining Lowell's performance doesn't add up. If playing at Fenway vs Dolphin Stadium made that much a difference then he would've never put up the numbers he did here in 03 & 04, and it would also mean everyone on the Red Soxs avg should be about 50pts higher than it would otherwise be, assuming they have enough pop to hit the walls. As much as you may want to analyze parks and personnel, it is as simple as this: He played poorly in 05, and played well before and since. And people do that a lot to varying degrees. Lowell is a nice and extreme example of it.

 

 

True, I didn't think Mike Lowell would do THAT well, but I thought he'd be a bit better, around a better lineup.

 

On the other hand, I don't think Dontrelle will do that, for the reasons I mentioned.

...WITH THAT SAID, I totally agree with you. I don't think this trade can be judged this year, and we can't forget that the main reason the Tigers made this trade was not for Dontrelle, but for Miguel Cabrera (who's hitting like .150, and no, I don't see that lasting too long).