Posted January 29, 200916 yr Surely the Marlins threw Andino at them for Hill, especially with the Cubs trading away Ronny Cedeno the other day in the Heilman deal. That would give us more starting depth, allowing more flexibility if we do want to trade for a catcher before Spring Training. The Cubs have also been weighing offers for left-handed pitcher Rich Hill. Hill, who has the yips (continually walks batters), tried to correct his problem with a stint in winter ball this season. After a couple of encouraging starts, Hill went back to walking a batter per inning. http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/espnr...mp;post=3866413
January 29, 200916 yr They traded Cedano because he is out of options and has no place on the 25 man roster. Andino is a worse version. They will have 0 interest in Andino. It's the same reason with Hill - out of options, no place on roster. I'd argue he'd have a tough time breaking our 12 man pitching staff. I'd love to have him stashed in AAA, but situationally speaking, we'd have to give something decent for him, and then just pray he doesn't suck. This is a much bigger risk than Kroenke and Meyer acquisitions. We're not a good fit for Hill, even though we could use another SP around.
January 29, 200916 yr They traded Cedano because he is out of options and has no place on the 25 man roster. Andino is a worse version. They will have 0 interest in Andino. It's the same reason with Hill - out of options, no place on roster. I'd argue he'd have a tough time breaking our 12 man pitching staff. I'd love to have him stashed in AAA, but situationally speaking, we'd have to give something decent for him, and then just pray he doesn't suck. This is a much bigger risk than Kroenke and Meyer acquisitions. We're not a good fit for Hill, even though we could use another SP around. I was wondering about Rich Hill's options - given that he has none, I also don't think that he's a good fit, although I like his upside and he would improve our SP depth. But he's not worth trading another prospect for while we'd be forced to put him on the ML roster, no matter how he performs, or else lose him on waivers.
January 29, 200916 yr Author They traded Cedano because he is out of options and has no place on the 25 man roster. Andino is a worse version. They will have 0 interest in Andino. It's the same reason with Hill - out of options, no place on roster. I'd argue he'd have a tough time breaking our 12 man pitching staff. I'd love to have him stashed in AAA, but situationally speaking, we'd have to give something decent for him, and then just pray he doesn't suck. This is a much bigger risk than Kroenke and Meyer acquisitions. We're not a good fit for Hill, even though we could use another SP around. This I did not know. Thank you, Lou.
January 29, 200916 yr Author They traded Cedano because he is out of options and has no place on the 25 man roster. Andino is a worse version. They will have 0 interest in Andino. It's the same reason with Hill - out of options, no place on roster. I'd argue he'd have a tough time breaking our 12 man pitching staff. I'd love to have him stashed in AAA, but situationally speaking, we'd have to give something decent for him, and then just pray he doesn't suck. This is a much bigger risk than Kroenke and Meyer acquisitions. We're not a good fit for Hill, even though we could use another SP around. Just got out of the shower, and was thinking more about this trade. With these out-of-options players, teams are basically just trying to get a warm body in return. Although both Cedeno and Andino were out of options, don't you think it would be easier for the Cubs to sneak Andino through Waivers than it would have been to sneak Cedeno through? As for Hill being a risk for the Marlins, I'm not so sure. If he comes to Spring Training and is terrible, he passes through Waivers because he's terrible. If he pitches well in Spring Training, he likey earns the 5th starter spot or a spot in the pen.
January 29, 200916 yr I really think he cubs should go after hudson hed be a great fit over there. As for Hill I dont think we have any room for him.
January 30, 200916 yr If we still think that Andrew Miller is gonna be our fifth starter, then we have room for Hill. Neither one is a lock to do well next year and in all likelihood, neither will. But Rich Hill has actually had some great stretches in the major leagues while Miller...hasn't. It's really no contest. Miller throws hard but thats it. They both have control/command issues but Hill's curveball is much harder to hit than Miller's fastball, which is rarely ever as good as advertised. Hill's 3.92 ERA two years ago is nothing to be ashamed of and he is actually capable of better than that. Rotoworld is right when they say he could be the next Cliff Lee. I'm a Cubs fan almost as much as I am a Marlins fan and they really have no idea how to treat players in their system (see: Felix Pie, Corey Patterson, Matt Mertun, Sean Marshall, any pitching prospect besides Carlos Zambrano, every guy that they've drafted in the last 5 years). Rich Hill is a head case who must be treated properly but I strongly believe that Mark Wiley could get the best out of him. Rich Hill has a ceiling as a number 2 or 3, and he has actually matched that before. His curveball, when mixed in with the rest of his pitches, is almost entirely unhittable. There's no reason why the Marlins shouldn't offer at least a B level prospect to get Hill.
January 30, 200916 yr They wouldn't do it, and I'd be more against it than for it, but Miller could always start the year in AAA.
January 30, 200916 yr If we still think that Andrew Miller is gonna be our fifth starter, then we have room for Hill. Neither one is a lock to do well next year and in all likelihood, neither will. But Rich Hill has actually had some great stretches in the major leagues while Miller...hasn't. It's really no contest. Miller throws hard but thats it. They both have control/command issues but Hill's curveball is much harder to hit than Miller's fastball, which is rarely ever as good as advertised. Hill's 3.92 ERA two years ago is nothing to be ashamed of and he is actually capable of better than that. Rotoworld is right when they say he could be the next Cliff Lee. I'm a Cubs fan almost as much as I am a Marlins fan and they really have no idea how to treat players in their system (see: Felix Pie, Corey Patterson, Matt Mertun, Sean Marshall, any pitching prospect besides Carlos Zambrano, every guy that they've drafted in the last 5 years). Rich Hill is a head case who must be treated properly but I strongly believe that Mark Wiley could get the best out of him. Rich Hill has a ceiling as a number 2 or 3, and he has actually matched that before. His curveball, when mixed in with the rest of his pitches, is almost entirely unhittable. There's no reason why the Marlins shouldn't offer at least a B level prospect to get Hill. If healthy, Miller is absolutely in the starting rotation to being the year. I cannot see any way in which they start Rich Hill over a healthy Miller. Miller's only 23. And as for the great stretches, in May 2008 Miller pitched 29.2 innings, with 22 hits, 28 Ks and 10 walks, and a 2.43 ERA. Rich Hill has had some excellent months, as well, but he'll be 29 on opening day, and I can't him getting first crack after the bigtime troubles he had last year.
January 30, 200916 yr If we still think that Andrew Miller is gonna be our fifth starter, then we have room for Hill. Neither one is a lock to do well next year and in all likelihood, neither will. But Rich Hill has actually had some great stretches in the major leagues while Miller...hasn't. It's really no contest. Miller throws hard but thats it. They both have control/command issues but Hill's curveball is much harder to hit than Miller's fastball, which is rarely ever as good as advertised. Hill's 3.92 ERA two years ago is nothing to be ashamed of and he is actually capable of better than that. Rotoworld is right when they say he could be the next Cliff Lee. I'm a Cubs fan almost as much as I am a Marlins fan and they really have no idea how to treat players in their system (see: Felix Pie, Corey Patterson, Matt Mertun, Sean Marshall, any pitching prospect besides Carlos Zambrano, every guy that they've drafted in the last 5 years). Rich Hill is a head case who must be treated properly but I strongly believe that Mark Wiley could get the best out of him. Rich Hill has a ceiling as a number 2 or 3, and he has actually matched that before. His curveball, when mixed in with the rest of his pitches, is almost entirely unhittable. There's no reason why the Marlins shouldn't offer at least a B level prospect to get Hill. If healthy, Miller is absolutely in the starting rotation to being the year. I cannot see any way in which they start Rich Hill over a healthy Miller. Miller's only 23. And as for the great stretches, in May 2008 Miller pitched 29.2 innings, with 22 hits, 28 Ks and 10 walks, and a 2.43 ERA. Rich Hill has had some excellent months, as well, but he'll be 29 on opening day, and I can't him getting first crack after the bigtime troubles he had last year. There can be more chances for Miller down the road. The reality is that he is likely to miss significant ST time and be late to start the year- why not have him get some AAA work which he badly needs anyway. He has failed to develop at all as a pitcher when organizations have tried the have him learn at the major league level approach; why not try something different. I realize that you said if healthy, but the reality is that he is likely not going to be. At any rate, Hill has had more than just one month's worth of good starts and if you had watched him when he was on you would realize how absolutely dominating and dynamic he can be. Hill had a year and a half worth of good starts with some dominant stretches, while Miller has one month while he never pitched at any other time like a guy who belonged in the majors. There's a tremendous difference in there. Let's look at it this way- Rich Hill has a career ERA of 4.37 while Miller's is 5.80. Sure, Miller is 23 and can develop, but putting him in AAA this year does not prevent him from further developing when he has less than 15 career minor league starts. At the same time, having him pitch in the majors again despite his struggles the last two years there does not mean he is going to magically develop this year. It's simply good organizational management to start some of your younger players in the minors while guys with arguably less talent (which I don't even think Hill is, FTR) start the year in the majors. The reason is that it allows the team to have reinforcements waiting in the form of the younger players. When guys get injured, they can be called up at no loss to the franchise. Starting the young player in the majors while waiving the guy with no options likely gives you very little fallback options. This is why year after year, smarter teams start their top prospects in AAA rather than pushing them up to the majors. Even the Rays started Evan Longoria in the minors last year in order to avoid having to DFA Willy Aybar, who ended up playing an important supporting role in the Rays season.
January 30, 200916 yr If we still think that Andrew Miller is gonna be our fifth starter, then we have room for Hill. Neither one is a lock to do well next year and in all likelihood, neither will. But Rich Hill has actually had some great stretches in the major leagues while Miller...hasn't. It's really no contest. Miller throws hard but thats it. They both have control/command issues but Hill's curveball is much harder to hit than Miller's fastball, which is rarely ever as good as advertised. Hill's 3.92 ERA two years ago is nothing to be ashamed of and he is actually capable of better than that. Rotoworld is right when they say he could be the next Cliff Lee. I'm a Cubs fan almost as much as I am a Marlins fan and they really have no idea how to treat players in their system (see: Felix Pie, Corey Patterson, Matt Mertun, Sean Marshall, any pitching prospect besides Carlos Zambrano, every guy that they've drafted in the last 5 years). Rich Hill is a head case who must be treated properly but I strongly believe that Mark Wiley could get the best out of him. Rich Hill has a ceiling as a number 2 or 3, and he has actually matched that before. His curveball, when mixed in with the rest of his pitches, is almost entirely unhittable. There's no reason why the Marlins shouldn't offer at least a B level prospect to get Hill. If healthy, Miller is absolutely in the starting rotation to being the year. I cannot see any way in which they start Rich Hill over a healthy Miller. Miller's only 23. And as for the great stretches, in May 2008 Miller pitched 29.2 innings, with 22 hits, 28 Ks and 10 walks, and a 2.43 ERA. Rich Hill has had some excellent months, as well, but he'll be 29 on opening day, and I can't him getting first crack after the bigtime troubles he had last year. There can be more chances for Miller down the road. The reality is that he is likely to miss significant ST time and be late to start the year- why not have him get some AAA work which he badly needs anyway. He has failed to develop at all as a pitcher when organizations have tried the have him learn at the major league level approach; why not try something different. I realize that you said if healthy, but the reality is that he is likely not going to be. At any rate, Hill has had more than just one month's worth of good starts and if you had watched him when he was on you would realize how absolutely dominating and dynamic he can be. Hill had a year and a half worth of good starts with some dominant stretches, while Miller has one month while he never pitched at any other time like a guy who belonged in the majors. There's a tremendous difference in there. Let's look at it this way- Rich Hill has a career ERA of 4.37 while Miller's is 5.80. Sure, Miller is 23 and can develop, but putting him in AAA this year does not prevent him from further developing when he has less than 15 career minor league starts. At the same time, having him pitch in the majors again despite his struggles the last two years there does not mean he is going to magically develop this year. It's simply good organizational management to start some of your younger players in the minors while guys with arguably less talent (which I don't even think Hill is, FTR) start the year in the majors. The reason is that it allows the team to have reinforcements waiting in the form of the younger players. When guys get injured, they can be called up at no loss to the franchise. Starting the young player in the majors while waiving the guy with no options likely gives you very little fallback options. This is why year after year, smarter teams start their top prospects in AAA rather than pushing them up to the majors. Even the Rays started Evan Longoria in the minors last year in order to avoid having to DFA Willy Aybar, who ended up playing an important supporting role in the Rays season. You make many good points. It would still surprise to see the Marlins put a healthy Miller in AAA in favor of another guy, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea. It looks, oddly enough, like the Orioles are the frontrunners to get Rich Hill. Those 2 teams making another trade is weird.
January 30, 200916 yr Surely the Marlins threw Andino at them for Hill And then the Cubs surely laughed.
January 30, 200916 yr If we still think that Andrew Miller is gonna be our fifth starter, then we have room for Hill. Neither one is a lock to do well next year and in all likelihood, neither will. But Rich Hill has actually had some great stretches in the major leagues while Miller...hasn't. It's really no contest. Miller throws hard but thats it. They both have control/command issues but Hill's curveball is much harder to hit than Miller's fastball, which is rarely ever as good as advertised. Hill's 3.92 ERA two years ago is nothing to be ashamed of and he is actually capable of better than that. Rotoworld is right when they say he could be the next Cliff Lee. I'm a Cubs fan almost as much as I am a Marlins fan and they really have no idea how to treat players in their system (see: Felix Pie, Corey Patterson, Matt Mertun, Sean Marshall, any pitching prospect besides Carlos Zambrano, every guy that they've drafted in the last 5 years). Rich Hill is a head case who must be treated properly but I strongly believe that Mark Wiley could get the best out of him. Rich Hill has a ceiling as a number 2 or 3, and he has actually matched that before. His curveball, when mixed in with the rest of his pitches, is almost entirely unhittable. There's no reason why the Marlins shouldn't offer at least a B level prospect to get Hill. If healthy, Miller is absolutely in the starting rotation to being the year. I cannot see any way in which they start Rich Hill over a healthy Miller. Miller's only 23. And as for the great stretches, in May 2008 Miller pitched 29.2 innings, with 22 hits, 28 Ks and 10 walks, and a 2.43 ERA. Rich Hill has had some excellent months, as well, but he'll be 29 on opening day, and I can't him getting first crack after the bigtime troubles he had last year. There can be more chances for Miller down the road. The reality is that he is likely to miss significant ST time and be late to start the year- why not have him get some AAA work which he badly needs anyway. He has failed to develop at all as a pitcher when organizations have tried the have him learn at the major league level approach; why not try something different. I realize that you said if healthy, but the reality is that he is likely not going to be. At any rate, Hill has had more than just one month's worth of good starts and if you had watched him when he was on you would realize how absolutely dominating and dynamic he can be. Hill had a year and a half worth of good starts with some dominant stretches, while Miller has one month while he never pitched at any other time like a guy who belonged in the majors. There's a tremendous difference in there. Let's look at it this way- Rich Hill has a career ERA of 4.37 while Miller's is 5.80. Sure, Miller is 23 and can develop, but putting him in AAA this year does not prevent him from further developing when he has less than 15 career minor league starts. At the same time, having him pitch in the majors again despite his struggles the last two years there does not mean he is going to magically develop this year. It's simply good organizational management to start some of your younger players in the minors while guys with arguably less talent (which I don't even think Hill is, FTR) start the year in the majors. The reason is that it allows the team to have reinforcements waiting in the form of the younger players. When guys get injured, they can be called up at no loss to the franchise. Starting the young player in the majors while waiving the guy with no options likely gives you very little fallback options. This is why year after year, smarter teams start their top prospects in AAA rather than pushing them up to the majors. Even the Rays started Evan Longoria in the minors last year in order to avoid having to DFA Willy Aybar, who ended up playing an important supporting role in the Rays season. You make many good points. It would still surprise to see the Marlins put a healthy Miller in AAA in favor of another guy, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea. It looks, oddly enough, like the Orioles are the frontrunners to get Rich Hill. Those 2 teams making another trade is weird. I do get the feeling that this discussion is moot anyway because the Marlins just don't seem like the type of team to go after Hill. A trade with the Orioles would be weird, only because its almost silly to think that they just completed a deal where they could have thrown in Hill as well for the right price.
January 30, 200916 yr I'd like the idea of Miller starting the year in AAA, for no other reason, than to suppress his major league service time. Why waste his cheap years taking his lumps in the majors. Let him develop at AAA, and force himself into the Marlins rotation. Marlins Front Office is amazing at evaluating talent, though. If they feel he's ready for the major leagues (going purely based on their track record), then he probably is.
January 30, 200916 yr I'd like the idea of Miller starting the year in AAA, for no other reason, than to suppress his major league service time. Why waste his cheap years taking his lumps in the majors. Let him develop at AAA, and force himself into the Marlins rotation. Marlins Front Office is amazing at evaluating talent, though. If they feel he's ready for the major leagues (going purely based on their track record), then he probably is. I believe Miller already has a major league contract because he signed a large deal out of the draft. Service time could still come into play for free agency and stuff, but considering the salary that Miller is already earning this cheap franchise will probably keep him in the majors just because of it, nevermind if the best way to develop their investment is to keep it in the minors. Secondly, while they really didn't have much of a choice due to injuries, it was never once raised that Miller would start next year anywhere but the majors. They seemed to think that last year he was ready but the numbers speak for themselve in regards to his readiness. While I think the front office has an eye for talent, that doesn't mean that they don't pander to them franchise idea of keeping payroll low no matter what. I've seen a couple forced trades that we all know did not get equal value and they cut loose players who played well just becuase they were too cheap to pay arbitration. I do respect the FO, but I don't think they are the end all in being right all the time, and I don't think they are above handing Miller a job just because of his contract and pride at him being the centerpiece of the Cabrera deal.
January 30, 200916 yr There's also the fact that Andrew would have to basically spend the entire year in AAA for there to be an actual difference in service time. And you also let him take his lump in the majors so that he can develop into a major league player. Not everybody is Hanley or Cabs and comes up swinging. Others have to learn, to adjust. Andrew's peripherals last year showed that he was ready for the majors. If he's healthy, he should be perfectly fine.
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