Which is around 20% of the season, and they way we've been falling lately it's not going to be pretty when we're finished with those 162 games.

I do, and it has been. It' been one of the worst in Baseball.

 

I think Uggla will eventually snap out of it, but again, he's hitting .193. That's not an indication in any way of being one of the best hitting 2B in the Majors. It may to you, but not to me.

Cody Ross will be decent, but I don't think he's as good as you do.

 

If track records mattered for here and now, I'd agree with you. However they don't, and we're far from fine.

 

Bonifacio can't even get on base. What does his speed matter? I'm sorry, but I'd much rather have Jacobs right now as opposed to Bonifacio.

 

 

 

Players struggle.

 

Dan Uggla has a career 113 OPS+, including a 128 OPS+ last year. That is very good. That's why he is one of the best offensive 2B in baseball. Things even out over the course of the year. Uggla's still getting on base, despite struggles. He has a .310 .OBP which is a great sign, considering he's below the Mendoza line. That will change.

 

Cody Ross is 210 points below his career .OPS this year. 2-1-0! That is a significant dropoff. Why should I expect him to continue struggling (or anyone for that matter?) It seems, as though, people think that Cody Ross is just this guy we got off the street, whom we got lucky with last year, and is nothing, but a 4th OF'er. Not the case. He's actually a solid hitter, who is underrated, defensively. A nice player.

 

Also, consider, that both these guys have been a bit unfortunate this year, and lets face it...just like our offense...BOTH are extremely streaky hitters that can carry a team when they're hot (which explains the reason why Cody's won Fish of the Week twice this year, on this very board, despite having attrocious numbers, in general), I see that as even more of a positive. They've both already been cold...so it's time to get hot.

 

As for Jacobs...please take him. Not only was he horrible at getting on base, but he was BY FAR the worst 1B in baseball. He is an AL player, who should DH, and only DH.

 

Bonifacio(ut) being out there, allowing us to move Cantu to 1B, has improved our defense a lot. We lost some power with Jacobs, but it will be less of a problem once Uggla, Cody, and even Hermida (who is a good 60+ points off his career slugging percentage) get it going.

Oh and BTW, just to refresh peoples memories. In 07, Cabrera lead us in HR's, RBI's, and OBP. he and Hanley together looked like this.

Cabrera: 34 HR, 119 RBI, .320/.401/.565

Hanley: 29 HR, 81 RBI, .335/.386/.562(Hanley also had 51 SB that year)

 

Now, Hanley has virtually no protection in the lineup and all of his stats fell last year with the exception of HR's. Also, this was before was as established as he is now. Again, we should have kept Cabrera.

 

 

Again, we would've lost him for nothing.

 

And his value back then was far greater than it is now.

We got 2 top 10 prospects for him, at the time. Forgive Maybin and Miller for not being automatic studs, as soon as they got to the big leagues. That tends to happen with young players.

 

Which is basically what we've done anyway. Lost him for nothing. Plus, with the approval of the new stadium there's a chance we would have been able to resign him.

 

It is? Explain.

 

Funny, Cabrera is only 4 years older than Maybin and 3 years older than Miller. They're all "young", except one of the "young" players is one of the best in the game and the other two haven't panned out. You don't trade established superstars for potential.

 

 

 

 

 

We received 2 top 10 prospects, at the time, and that's not even mentioning a guy like Dallas Trahern, who still has some potential. And Badenhop who's currently contributing to our big league team, in the pen.

 

As for your last sentence, this just goes to show that you're playing the result, which is a terrible thing to do with young players/prospects.

 

I bet you were saying this same crap when we traded World Series MVP, Josh Beckett, in return for "prospect," Hanley Ramirez, and others (including Anibal Sanchez, if I might add, since he, too, has had his good moments).

 

So we should've kept Beckett too, right?

Oh and BTW, just to refresh peoples memories. In 07, Cabrera lead us in HR's, RBI's, and OBP. he and Hanley together looked like this.

Cabrera: 34 HR, 119 RBI, .320/.401/.565

Hanley: 29 HR, 81 RBI, .335/.386/.562(Hanley also had 51 SB that year)

 

Now, Hanley has virtually no protection in the lineup and all of his stats fell last year with the exception of HR's. Also, this was before was as established as he is now. Again, we should have kept Cabrera.

 

 

Again, we would've lost him for nothing.

 

And his value back then was far greater than it is now.

We got 2 top 10 prospects for him, at the time. Forgive Maybin and Miller for not being automatic studs, as soon as they got to the big leagues. That tends to happen with young players.

 

Which is basically what we've done anyway. Lost him for nothing. Plus, with the approval of the new stadium there's a chance we would have been able to resign him.

 

It is? Explain.

 

Funny, Cabrera is only 4 years older than Maybin and 3 years older than Miller. They're all "young", except one of the "young" players is one of the best in the game and the other two haven't panned out. You don't trade established superstars for potential.

 

 

 

 

 

We received 2 top 10 prospects, at the time, and that's not even mentioning a guy like Dallas Trahern, who still has some potential. And Badenhop who's currently contributing to our big league team, in the pen.

 

As for your last sentence, this just goes to show that you're playing the result, which is a terrible thing to do with young players/prospects.

 

I bet you were saying this same crap when we traded World Series MVP, Josh Beckett, in return for "prospect," Hanley Ramirez, and others (including Anibal Sanchez, if I might add, since he, too, has had his good moments).

 

So we should've kept Beckett too, right?

 

Hanley Ramirez >>>>>>> Everybody we got in the trade for Cabrera. Everybody wanted Hanley at the time. He was widely accepted as the uncontested #1 prospect at the time. Also, out of all the prospects we got for Cabrera. Who's helped us win?

 

Also, if you wanna be technical. The Bosox got the best out of that deal seeing as how the won the WS and all. Not that I don't love Hanley, just saying.

You can spin it however you want, but the fact remains that Cabrera is a legitimate cleanup hitter, there

as hard to find as an ace pitcher! He makes 14 million a year, thats not A-ROID money... but with him in the

middle of the lineup it would have been devastating... If the stadium deal would have gone down sooner

like it should have, then he never would have been traded period..

 

 

Hanley is a bargain at 5 million a year. Josh Johnson better not get away

 

Exactly. No matter what anyone says, we should have kept Cabrera. Hanley and Cabrera in the same lineup, both only being 25 and 26 respectively? We would be a legit playoff and possibly even world series contender for years to come. Now, with only two legit bats in the lineup, we're stuck being mediocre for the time being.

 

 

Uggla is one of the best offensive 2B in all of baseball.

Cody Ross is an .800 .OPS guy, who's struggling.

Hermida is showing that he can get on base, again.

We have one of the best offensive catching platoons in baseball.

 

And, again, 1 of those 2 legit bats (I'm assuming you're talking about Cantu, since he's having a good year, and you seem like a "what have you done for me, lately?" type of guy?") we never get if Cabrera does not leave.

 

He's currently hitting .193/.301/.345 through 30 games. He had a great season last year, but he's currently nowhere near being one of the best offensive 2B in baseball.

Well it's currently .581, but I get your point. We'll see if he steps up or not.

His bat has still been less than stellar. In fact, it's been below average.

I'll give you that. Baker has done well thus far.

 

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. I couldn't care less about having Cantu if we still had Cabrera. Cabrera is one of the top 10 players in the game. Can you imagine how good we would be having two of the top 1-10 best players in the game? I can.

 

 

Ok first of all Uggla didn't just have a nice year last year. Check his stats. He had three exceptional years in a row. Typically vetran players, unless they are injured or at the end of their carreers, tend to finish the season with similar stats to what they have done in the past. Second of all if you know where they are handing our JorgeCantu's I think you should talk to the Marlins or any other team because I'm sure someone will offer you a big bag of money for the where abouts of easily gotten middle of the line up professional hitters with power that can play multiple positions.

And about Cabrera still being on the team well, if we are going to make a fantasy team of could have and should haves, we could make some team. And since your so smart that you know how to aquire all our young talent and keep all our superstars without cracking $50mil in payroll, again, I recomend you offer your services to the Marlins because clearly Beinfest is a fool and you could do a much better job.

You know sometimes in video games I just create superstar players so that I can fit all the Marlins under the payroll. Maybe the Marlins should try that.

Oh and BTW, just to refresh peoples memories. In 07, Cabrera lead us in HR's, RBI's, and OBP. he and Hanley together looked like this.

Cabrera: 34 HR, 119 RBI, .320/.401/.565

Hanley: 29 HR, 81 RBI, .335/.386/.562(Hanley also had 51 SB that year)

 

Now, Hanley has virtually no protection in the lineup and all of his stats fell last year with the exception of HR's. Also, this was before was as established as he is now. Again, we should have kept Cabrera.

 

 

Again, we would've lost him for nothing.

 

And his value back then was far greater than it is now.

We got 2 top 10 prospects for him, at the time. Forgive Maybin and Miller for not being automatic studs, as soon as they got to the big leagues. That tends to happen with young players.

 

Which is basically what we've done anyway. Lost him for nothing. Plus, with the approval of the new stadium there's a chance we would have been able to resign him.

 

It is? Explain.

 

Funny, Cabrera is only 4 years older than Maybin and 3 years older than Miller. They're all "young", except one of the "young" players is one of the best in the game and the other two haven't panned out. You don't trade established superstars for potential.

 

 

 

 

 

We received 2 top 10 prospects, at the time, and that's not even mentioning a guy like Dallas Trahern, who still has some potential. And Badenhop who's currently contributing to our big league team, in the pen.

 

As for your last sentence, this just goes to show that you're playing the result, which is a terrible thing to do with young players/prospects.

 

I bet you were saying this same crap when we traded World Series MVP, Josh Beckett, in return for "prospect," Hanley Ramirez, and others (including Anibal Sanchez, if I might add, since he, too, has had his good moments).

 

So we should've kept Beckett too, right?

 

Hanley Ramirez >>>>>>> Everybody we got in the trade for Cabrera. Everybody wanted Hanley at the time. He was widely accepted as the uncontested #1 prospect at the time. Also, out of all the prospects we got for Cabrera. Who's helped us win?

 

Also, if you wanna be technical. The Bosox got the best out of that deal seeing as how the won the WS and all. Not that I don't love Hanley, just saying.

 

 

 

That's the biggest bulls*** I've heard, considering that in that prospect class, Jeremy Hermida was rated a much better prospect (30+ spots ahead better according to Baseball America, if I remember, correctly) than Hanley Ramirez.

 

Get a clue. Maybin was, and still is, rated a 5 tool prospect, and Andrew Miller was, and still is rated as a lefty who has ace stuff, in the future.

 

Your next sentence after the bolded one just proves my point on how you're playing the result with these trades, which is a terrible thing to do, considering both Maybin and Miller are still young, and still have plenty of years left with the Marlins to prove themselves.

 

And "if you wanna be technical," Andrew Miller was great for about a month and a half last year helping us win games, and Cameron Maybin helped us win games in September after he was called up (I'm sure you thought much more highly of him, then. ) It's ok, though. I understand. Giving up on 22 year olds is always smart.

Oh and BTW, just to refresh peoples memories. In 07, Cabrera lead us in HR's, RBI's, and OBP. he and Hanley together looked like this.

Cabrera: 34 HR, 119 RBI, .320/.401/.565

Hanley: 29 HR, 81 RBI, .335/.386/.562(Hanley also had 51 SB that year)

 

Now, Hanley has virtually no protection in the lineup and all of his stats fell last year with the exception of HR's. Also, this was before was as established as he is now. Again, we should have kept Cabrera.

 

 

Again, we would've lost him for nothing.

 

And his value back then was far greater than it is now.

We got 2 top 10 prospects for him, at the time. Forgive Maybin and Miller for not being automatic studs, as soon as they got to the big leagues. That tends to happen with young players.

 

Which is basically what we've done anyway. Lost him for nothing. Plus, with the approval of the new stadium there's a chance we would have been able to resign him.

 

It is? Explain.

 

Funny, Cabrera is only 4 years older than Maybin and 3 years older than Miller. They're all "young", except one of the "young" players is one of the best in the game and the other two haven't panned out. You don't trade established superstars for potential.

 

 

 

 

 

We received 2 top 10 prospects, at the time, and that's not even mentioning a guy like Dallas Trahern, who still has some potential. And Badenhop who's currently contributing to our big league team, in the pen.

 

As for your last sentence, this just goes to show that you're playing the result, which is a terrible thing to do with young players/prospects.

 

I bet you were saying this same crap when we traded World Series MVP, Josh Beckett, in return for "prospect," Hanley Ramirez, and others (including Anibal Sanchez, if I might add, since he, too, has had his good moments).

 

So we should've kept Beckett too, right?

 

Hanley Ramirez >>>>>>> Everybody we got in the trade for Cabrera. Everybody wanted Hanley at the time. He was widely accepted as the uncontested #1 prospect at the time. Also, out of all the prospects we got for Cabrera. Who's helped us win?

 

Also, if you wanna be technical. The Bosox got the best out of that deal seeing as how the won the WS and all. Not that I don't love Hanley, just saying.

 

 

 

Just to provide evidence for what Erick was saying about prospect status at the time of the trades.......

 

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/

Maybin was ranked #3 prospect in all of baseball when we made that deal.

 

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/ne...6.jsp?content=3

Hanley Ramirez was ranked #25 prospect in all of baseball when we made that deal. You can also follow the links from that page to see that Hermida was the #2 prospect at that time.

 

To boot, I think Miller was a much more highly touted prospect then any other player in the HanRam deal was at that time.

You can spin it however you want, but the fact remains that Cabrera is a legitimate cleanup hitter, there

as hard to find as an ace pitcher! He makes 14 million a year, thats not A-ROID money... but with him in the

middle of the lineup it would have been devastating... If the stadium deal would have gone down sooner

like it should have, then he never would have been traded period..

 

 

Hanley is a bargain at 5 million a year. Josh Johnson better not get away

 

Exactly. No matter what anyone says, we should have kept Cabrera. Hanley and Cabrera in the same lineup, both only being 25 and 26 respectively? We would be a legit playoff and possibly even world series contender for years to come. Now, with only two legit bats in the lineup, we're stuck being mediocre for the time being.

 

 

Uggla is one of the best offensive 2B in all of baseball.

Cody Ross is an .800 .OPS guy, who's struggling.

Hermida is showing that he can get on base, again.

We have one of the best offensive catching platoons in baseball.

 

And, again, 1 of those 2 legit bats (I'm assuming you're talking about Cantu, since he's having a good year, and you seem like a "what have you done for me, lately?" type of guy?") we never get if Cabrera does not leave.

 

He's currently hitting .193/.301/.345 through 30 games. He had a great season last year, but he's currently nowhere near being one of the best offensive 2B in baseball.

Well it's currently .581, but I get your point. We'll see if he steps up or not.

His bat has still been less than stellar. In fact, it's been below average.

I'll give you that. Baker has done well thus far.

 

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. I couldn't care less about having Cantu if we still had Cabrera. Cabrera is one of the top 10 players in the game. Can you imagine how good we would be having two of the top 1-10 best players in the game? I can.

 

 

Ok first of all Uggla didn't just have a nice year last year. Check his stats. He had three exceptional years in a row. Typically vetran players, unless they are injured or at the end of their carreers, tend to finish the season with similar stats to what they have done in the past. Second of all if you know where they are handing our JorgeCantu's I think you should talk to the Marlins or any other team because I'm sure someone will offer you a big bag of money for the where abouts of easily gotten middle of the line up professional hitters with power that can play multiple positions.

And about Cabrera still being on the team well, if we are going to make a fantasy team of could have and should haves, we could make some team. And since your so smart that you know how to aquire all our young talent and keep all our superstars without cracking $50mil in payroll, again, I recomend you offer your services to the Marlins because clearly Beinfest is a fool and you could do a much better job.

You know sometimes in video games I just create superstar players so that I can fit all the Marlins under the payroll. Maybe the Marlins should try that.

 

I think that is precisely the point, what you mention above is virtually impossible. Beinfest is a great GM, but I'm sure even he would admit as any GM would that trading away talent like Josh Beckett & Miguel Cabrera is not in any way "progressing" towards the goal of winning. Its trying to play the smallball game, if you read that book, Billy Beane admits that its sometimes risk without reward. In theory your suppose to be able to keep your young good players til their atleast 30, then the yankees can give them the bloated 2nd contract. Even the A's have atleast 65 million to play with, the payroll is just too damn low...

 

with that being said, the marlins got lucky with Hanley...but the Cabrera trade will probably never equal out for them

Oh and BTW, just to refresh peoples memories. In 07, Cabrera lead us in HR's, RBI's, and OBP. he and Hanley together looked like this.

Cabrera: 34 HR, 119 RBI, .320/.401/.565

Hanley: 29 HR, 81 RBI, .335/.386/.562(Hanley also had 51 SB that year)

 

Now, Hanley has virtually no protection in the lineup and all of his stats fell last year with the exception of HR's. Also, this was before was as established as he is now. Again, we should have kept Cabrera.

 

 

Again, we would've lost him for nothing.

 

And his value back then was far greater than it is now.

We got 2 top 10 prospects for him, at the time. Forgive Maybin and Miller for not being automatic studs, as soon as they got to the big leagues. That tends to happen with young players.

 

Mind if I quote you on that?

Bonifacio can't even get on base. What does his speed matter? I'm sorry, but I'd much rather have Jacobs right now as opposed to Bonifacio.

 

5 game hitting streak with a BB thrown in and 2 of those games are multi hits, tends to say someone dosen't want to pay attention.

 

Like I keep saying, patience. And it is paying off. Like it or not.

You guys do realize that trading Miggy was more than just payroll. He was a malcontent, lazy fielder with an inconsistent glove. His quotes and actions also show he wasn't exactly good in the club house. In other words, a DH just waiting to happen. Someone that needed to be on a team with enough veterans to control his ego. We dumped him when a good deal came along.

[/quote

 

Just to provide evidence for what Erick was saying about prospect status at the time of the trades.......

 

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/

Maybin was ranked #3 prospect in all of baseball when we made that deal.

 

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/ne...6.jsp?content=3

Hanley Ramirez was ranked #25 prospect in all of baseball when we made that deal. You can also follow the links from that page to see that Hermida was the #2 prospect at that time.

 

To boot, I think Miller was a much more highly touted prospect then any other player in the HanRam deal was at that time.

 

In hindsight its funny to think hermida was ahead of Hanley. Hanley figured something out on his way to the bigs.

[/quote

 

I think that is precisely the point, what you mention above is virtually impossible. Beinfest is a great GM, but I'm sure even he would admit as any GM would that trading away talent like Josh Beckett & Miguel Cabrera is not in any way "progressing" towards the goal of winning. Its trying to play the smallball game, if you read that book, Billy Beane admits that its sometimes risk without reward. In theory your suppose to be able to keep your young good players til their atleast 30, then the yankees can give them the bloated 2nd contract. Even the A's have atleast 65 million to play with, the payroll is just too damn low...

 

with that being said, the marlins got lucky with Hanley...but the Cabrera trade will probably never equal out for them

 

I definently think it could. If MAybin and miller live up to their hype then we basically traded one stud for 2 considering Dtrain has blown since he got to detroit.

Also, Beckett really hasn't been that great since he left, outside that '07 season.