November 17, 200322 yr All of the sexy numbers go to Lee. Better fielder, can steal bases, better OBP, better OPS, more homers, more RBIs. Not to mention he's younger & his numbers will more than likely increase while Conine's will probably not. Game on the line? Tough to say... My first reaction is to say Conine, he just seems to have a better approach at the plate. Overall, Derrek Lee's a better baseball player right now, but not by a ton. I'd feel just fine with Jeff Conine as the Marlins 1B next season. Especially when you factor in their salaries next year.
November 18, 200322 yr OBP is so overated!!! Conine hands down when the game is on the line or any time you need a hit.Lee is the most inconsistent player in the Marlins roster.He can go 2-25 and next game light it up but he goes back to his usual slump.
November 18, 200322 yr shamrock made his argument for why lee is better than conine because of lee's superior OPS. you countered with: OBP is so overated!!! Conine hands down when the game is on the line or any time you need a hit.Lee is the most inconsistent player in the Marlins roster.He can go 2-25 and next game light it up but he goes back to his usual slump. so i thought perhaps you were responding to shamrock's assertion. personally, i think OBP is extremely important, since it measures a player's ability to get hits and to get walks. some people argue that OPS is overrated (though i've never heard that argument for OBP). personally i don't think OPS is overrated, either. but if you think getting on base is overrated, i'll have to disagree...
November 18, 200322 yr I'll just say one thing... Stats can be deceiving. My favorite saying when Derreck stats are brought up...
November 18, 200322 yr the real question is whether those #s are worthy of being a 1b? :whistle Have you seen the numbers of recent first basemen? Of playoff teams even? Hatteberg, Spiezio, Mientkiewicz, Snow, Karros, Fick, Tino, Grace, Helms, Zeile aren't exactly Jim Thome and Todd Helton. It's wrong to compare Lee and Conine. It's better to compare the outfielder that replaces Lee and the impact of Lee's defense at first and Conine's in left against Lee's bat and the defense of Conine at first and Lee's replacement in the outfield.
November 18, 200322 yr I'll just say one thing... Stats can be deceiving. Think for yourselves for once guys...all OBP is is hits + walks! LOL WHAT THE HELL IS SO DEVIOUS ABOUT THAT!?
November 18, 200322 yr If you think OBP or RBI is a stupid stat and shouldn't be used to judge a hitter, you're an idiot. OPS is different, because guys like Luis/Juan are obviously very talented players, but just dont hit for power, bringing that number down dramatically.
November 18, 200322 yr If you think OBP or RBI is a stupid stat and shouldn't be used to judge a hitter, you're an idiot. OPS is different, because guys like Luis/Juan are obviously very talented players, but just dont hit for power, bringing that number down dramatically. RBI is a horrible stat to evaluate a player with because its so team dependent, but I do agree OPS is a only useful if you break it down into its component parts (OBP + SLG) Its not even close to the best measure, but the best lay measure.
November 18, 200322 yr RBI is a horrible stat to evaluate a player with because its so team dependent Well, yes, a clean-up hitter is going to have a lot less RBI in Detroit than he would in Boston. BUT, he should still have over 100 RBI. (see: Brian Giles)
November 18, 200322 yr RBI is not stupid stats and I was wrong about OBP.OPS is the one stats that is really overated.There no reason for having OPS really.
November 18, 200322 yr RBI is a horrible stat to evaluate a player with because its so team dependent Well, yes, a clean-up hitter is going to have a lot less RBI in Detroit than he would in Boston. BUT, he should still have over 100 RBI. (see: Brian Giles) Your journey to being a mediot is well on its way.
November 18, 200322 yr RBI is not stupid stats and I was wrong about OBP.OPS is the one stats that is really overated.There no reason for having OPS really. I wouldn't say its overrated, but its not as acurrate as other stats and needs to be broken down into its components. But just for fun lets analyze what your saying here mathematically: minus likes OBP, but does not like OPS which = OBP + SLG so the statement that minus is really trying to make is that he thinks SLG sucks and OBP is good. hmm.
November 18, 200322 yr Your journey to being a mediot is well on its way. I'm going to take a guess and say that's a medium-idiot? :lol .... :o .... :thumbdown .... :lol
November 18, 200322 yr Think for yourselves for once guys...all OBP is is hits + walks! LOL WHAT THE HELL IS SO DEVIOUS ABOUT THAT!? Depends. OBP pretty much equates hits and walks. But most times even an 1-pitch single has a greater chance of helping a team by moving along the lead-runner than a 7-pitch walk with runners on base.
November 18, 200322 yr I'll just say one thing... Stats can be deceiving. Think for yourselves for once guys...all OBP is is hits + walks! LOL WHAT THE HELL IS SO DEVIOUS ABOUT THAT!?Shammy, stats can be deceiving and you can't argue with that. Here's a great example... By SituationABRH2B3BHRRBIBBHBPSOSBCSAVGOBPSLGOPS Scoring Position1606043818624143751.269.417.481.898 Scoring Posn, 2 out782817414251811610.218.371.449.820 Those are Derrek Lee's stats with RISP/RISP w/ 2 outs, not impressive. But if you look at other stats like: By SituationABRH2B3BHRRBIBBHBPSOSBCSAVGOBPSLGOPS On Second641320403151531621.313.463.516.979 On Third1882000660500.111.320.111.431 Second and Third99410313100200.444.7001.5562.256 That's pretty good right... but.. By SituationABRH2B3BHRRBIBBHBPSOSBCSAVGOBPSLGOPS Bases Loaded1281000610400.083.125.083.208 Men On, 2 out1093428617322112693.257.382.523.905 Man on 3rd,
November 18, 200322 yr Think for yourselves for once guys...all OBP is is hits + walks! LOL WHAT THE HELL IS SO DEVIOUS ABOUT THAT!? Depends. OBP pretty much equates hits and walks. But most times even an 1-pitch single has a greater chance of helping a team by moving along the lead-runner than a 7-pitch walk with runners on base. Thats why it rates walks lower than hits. I agree 100% stats can be misleading (RBI, certain players OPS, etc.) and I think you are almost proving to yourself the uselessness of the RBI stat and the lack of such a skill as "clutch" hitting. As you can see by the stats you listed, Derrek Lee seems to hit a lot of homers with men on and 2 outs, and with men on 2nd he's incredible, and with men on 3rd he's lights out. But for some strange reason in other types of the same RISP situations (just on different bases, less outs, playing on the moon) he doesn't do so well. I encourage you to look up D Lee's or any players RISP splits from year to year and ask yourself why some years he hits with a higher than his normal average with RISP and some years doesn't. Is it because they possess or do not possess the skill of "clutch" hitting or is it just chance that a hitter gets a hit when runners happen to be on base? Discover truth for yourselves my young padewons! :lol
November 18, 200322 yr Your journey to being a mediot is well on its way. I'm going to take a guess and say that's a medium-idiot? :lol .... :o .... :thumbdown .... :lol Someone who lets others do all their thinking for them and works in the media. I can't really blame you though as your young and have a ways to go. I didn't TRULY start thinking for myself until 2nd year of college, so I'd be a hypocrite if I gave you too much crap. It means media-idiot.
November 19, 200322 yr It makes me sad to know how much some of you rely on your subjective observations rather than taking a look at the objective data when you make your conclusions. I don't believe in clutch hitting as a skill, but let's take a look at the numbers and see if Lee really is as bad as most of you think: Lee ranked 4th on our team in OPS (.900) with RISP behind (Pudge, Cabs, and Lowell in that order) while Conine in only 26 ABs had an OPS of .611 and in Baltimore he had 149ABs with RISP with a .789 OPS. But I'm sure most of you will brush this off and still go with Conine as the superior offensive player...whatever. The times you've seen Derrek fail with runners on supercedes the actual data which showed him to have a higher OPS with runners in scoring position than without. Ignorance is bliss.\ And for those who think OPS is taboo...again its the raw total measure of a players offensive output (walks, weighted hits) but doesn't include things like SB which Derrek obviously wins at. Sham, since you seem to be objective here, why dont you do a comparison of Lee and Conine in the playoffs? Or even while both were on the same team - at the end of the season? I am curious what those stats would look like...
November 19, 200322 yr I'm tired of trying to prove Derrek Lee's worth to you people. If some of you want to think Conine is the better ball player then continue in ignorance. I don't care. Just for laughs though I'll do the month of September where Lee basically carried us: Lee Sept. OPS: 1.076, (highest on team by 201 points) 20RBI (tied with Cabs for month lead), t-Conine w/ 5 homers, t-Conine w/ 13 BBs, highest batting average (.341), highest OBP and SLG. Limited sample size I know.
November 20, 200322 yr Thats why it rates walks lower than hits. I agree 100% stats can be misleading (RBI, certain players OPS, etc.) and I think you are almost proving to yourself the uselessness of the RBI stat and the lack of such a skill as "clutch" hitting. As you can see by the stats you listed Going by the second paragraph I think you have the wrong person. But anyhow the formula for OBP is walks + hits + hbp divided by plate appearances (or really at bats, walks, hbp, sac flies) so it does give equal value to a hit and walk and hbp. And OPS (OBP + SLG) basically equates singles and doubles by giving a 2 multiplier to singles (counted once in batting average, and counted again as a total base) and doubles (emty and meaningless one-multipler for doubles and all extra base hits in OBP, and two for total bases.) Too much better stats are isolated power (SLG-BA) and something I like to call isolated patience (OBP-BA) to give the true value of a player's ability to slug/stretch for the extra base or take pitches for walks.
November 20, 200322 yr I'm tired of trying to prove Derrek Lee's worth to you people. If some of you want to think Conine is the better ball player then continue in ignorance. I don't care. It's not that. It's that there are available outfielders that could replace Lee's offense at a cheaper price than it would be to resign Derrek. It's not a knock on Lee, but on every baseball sandlot, each draft and throughout the major leagues there are probably more options in outfielders than anything but righthanded pitchers.
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