Marlins Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 All of the 30+ law schools below are being sued by their own graduates for publishing overinflated job placement and salary statistics. According to the plaintiffs law schools have misled prospective students by including part-time work, temporary work and work unrelated to a law license when calculating the percentage of graduates who are employed. They also argue that the salary numbers are flawed because school's salary questionnaires often only receive responses from a small portion of students-potentially skewing the numbers higher if only the best-paid graduates feel comfortable sharing that information. The plaintiffs seek to give both prospective students as well as current students a more accurate picture of their post graduate financial situation by requiring that law schools give critical material disclosures (as opposed to the status quo-where schools are incentivized to engage in all sorts of legerdemain when tabulating employment statistics). One lawyer involved in the lawsuit said back in February that their goal is to sue "20 to 25 more schools every few months." Looks like this is going to get really intense... American University Washington College of Law[/background] Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Chapman University School of Law Columbus School of Law, The Catholic University of America Loyola Marymount University Law School Loyola University Chicago School of Law New England School of Law Pace University School of Law Pepperdine University School of Law Roger Williams University School of Law Seattle University School of Law St. John’s University School of Law St. Louis University School of Law Stetson University College of Law Syracuse University College of Law University of Miami School of Law University of St. Thomas School of Law Valparaiso University School of Law Western New England University School of Law Whittier Law School Albany Law School Brooklyn Law School California Western School of Law Chicago-Kent College of Law DePaul University College of Law Florida Coastal School of Law Golden Gate University School of Law Hofstra Law School John Marshall School of Law (Chicago) Southwestern Law School University of San Francisco School of Law Widener University School of Law http://abovethelaw.c...chool-lawsuits/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbethan Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Lawyers suing. Shocker. We need Mystikol in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 that's hilarious. good luck with that ya morons. how about you get a job, instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlins Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 that's hilarious. good luck with that ya morons. how about you get a job, instead. Agreed. The plaintiffs should focus their energies on their job searches rather than blaming others. However, they do have a good point IMO. Law schools shouldn't be allowed to deceive prospective students into paying their demanding tuition through publishing false statistics. The issue isn't just employment after graduation-but law schools have gained undeserved prestige in the official law school rankings by the U.S. News & World Report magazine through these skewed stats (which leads to more $). Anyway, the ABA (American Bar Association) has already announced that they are on the cusp of demanding greater disclosure from their law schools, with a proposal under consideration that would require the law schools to publicize their graduates' full-time, long-term employment rate. By the way, the University of St. Thomas (Minnesota) has already been stripped of their ranking (119) on the U.S. News & World Report list of "Best Law Schools" due to this case of fraud. The Dean of the University promptly wrote an open letter to the magazine stating that the erroneous statistics were an "honest mistake"-but the magazine replied that whether the mistake was intentional or unintentional the university received a rank it should not have received and therefore could not gain it back. The Dean then wrote an email to the alumni saying that he is deeply sorry for the discrepancy in the statistics and that "it would never happen again." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? Seriously. This is big stuff. Lots of schools inflate these numbers a lot, and it does play significantly into many people's decision-making about whether and which school to attend. It's obviously a non-traditional case, but they have emotional, if not legal merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Notice that none of those schools are really big names. I've always held the belief that it's not worth it to take out more student loan debt to finance trade schools (medical, law, business, etc.) unless you can get into a good one. That's part of the reason why there is something like $1 trillion+ of student loan debt in this country.  People take out massive loans for mediocre schools and think that they are going to automatically get jobs and the government subsidizes the loans. On a separate note, I also don't think that PhD programs are worth the time if you can't get into a reputable program. I definitely agree with this. I have some friends who are applying for Law School and getting into places like Miami and Penn State, for example. I want to tell them that it's probably not worth it, but I risk being (even more of a?) complete asshole. I'm still not sure what to do in those situations...I'm at a T14 school, as they call it, and while many students are doing fine re: jobs, it hasn't been a cakewalk for a large number of my classmates, even people who are above median. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotcorner Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 WHERE IS THE IMMEDIATE 6-FIGURE SALARY RIGHT OUT OF SCHOOL THAT I WAS PROMISED??? no, no, I know it's rough out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? I'd assume if these assholes went to law school they have cars and homes and nice clothes and decent resumes. yeah, just get a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Ehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? I'd assume if these assholes went to law school they have cars and homes and nice clothes and decent resumes. yeah, just get a job. Here's a chance for you to take it back if you want, since you sound clueless. People who pay full price at a private law school may have around $200k in debt. It's difficult to get hired when you're overqualified (for example, they don't want to train you because you could leave any time for a "better" job), and the legal market is already heavily saturated. And most of the non-large-firm jobs pay ~$40-60k. That's very little when you're paying $1k+/month toward your loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 In a nation with upwards of 8% unemployment, the issue is that people with cars and nice shirts simply don't want jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? I'd assume if these assholes went to law school they have cars and homes and nice clothes and decent resumes. yeah, just get a job. Here's a chance for you to take it back if you want, since you sound like a clueless. People who pay full price at a private law school may have around $200k in debt. It's difficult to get hired when you're overqualified (for example, they don't want to train you because you could leave any time for a "better" job), and the legal market is already heavily saturated. And most of the non-large-firm jobs pay ~$40-60k. That's very little when you're paying $1k+/month toward your loans. ok, so they should have planned their future better. good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 So you changed your point almost entirely. Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't have any specific feelings about this case, but I always find it amusing when people say "Just get a job!" Oh, really? Just get a job? Just like that, huh? I'd assume if these assholes went to law school they have cars and homes and nice clothes and decent resumes. yeah, just get a job. Here's a chance for you to take it back if you want, since you sound like a clueless. People who pay full price at a private law school may have around $200k in debt. It's difficult to get hired when you're overqualified (for example, they don't want to train you because you could leave any time for a "better" job), and the legal market is already heavily saturated. And most of the non-large-firm jobs pay ~$40-60k. That's very little when you're paying $1k+/month toward your loans. ok, so they should have planned their future better. good point. I didn't say they planned well. But you intimated they're lazy and could have a job if they wanted. That's largely just not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 these people are all assholes. sue me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Really bringing a lot to the table here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherrealfan Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 This is just one big inter-law school trial game. Otherwise who would believe that very intelligent people entering law school believed that jobs are automatic and salaries guaranteed, just because that is what they "were promised" in the sales hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I've met the types of people going to law schools like "Cardozo School of Law" or "Western New England University" and they seemed anything but "very intelligent."  I don't think it's inacurrate to say that many of them are less than bright and too readily assumed that a law degree from anywhere would result in a cushy job.  I think the students are equally (if not more) at fault here for their poor judgment. I highly doubt that the admissions standards for these schools are that strict, either.  Probably the main criterion is that your money must be green. The government is also at fault for too readily subsidizing these massive loans for mediocre schools that aren't likely to bring steady employment.  People don't talk about it much in this country, but there is a huge student loan bubble forming that is going to burst sooner than we think. I've been thinking about the last part for a few years now. Far too many people go to bad undergraduate colleges, as well. Even if "passing" China/Japan/India/etc. is a goal worthy of pursuit, more Bachelor's Degrees from the Jacksonville University aren't the way to get there.Cardozo is a solid-ranked school, with good LSAT admissions standards, but there are many, many others that fit into your description regardless of whether Cardozo does or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 This is just one big inter-law school trial game.  Otherwise who would believe that very intelligent people entering law school believed that jobs are automatic and salaries guaranteed, just because that is what they "were promised" in the sales hype. As someone who recently went through the process, the literature can be quite persuasive. For example, they start off by telling you that their MEDIAN 1st-year, private-sector employment salary is $120k-$160k, depending on the school and its location. Cardozo, for example, probably says $160k, since that's market rate in NYC.Then, they tell you that 90-something percent of the graduating class was employed at graduation, and 99% within 9 months. Seems pretty great. And if you believe in your ability to work hard and do well, i.e. above median, how could you NOT fall into that $120-$160k group?It's not that there's a blind expectation of making all that money; rather, the school reports compelling statistics, and often the students have a good reason to think they'll fair pretty well at the school and thus have a good shot at that group.There is undoubtedly some responsibility to educate yourself, but you could argue that it's reasonable to rely on purported factual statistics from the schools, and maybe that reliance can be twisted into a legal claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlins Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 The problem... Nationwide, there are two aspiring lawyers with passing bar-exam scores for every one open job; in New York State, the ratio is even more lopsided, with 9,787 passing the bar in 2009, then competing for roughly 2,100 new positions. Meanwhile, law-school tuition rose 317 percent nationwide during the aughts, compared with a 71 percent spike for undergraduate tuition. http://nymag.com/new...schools-2012-3/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlins Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 Venable partner Michael Volpe, representing New York Law School, offered Schweitzer numerous reasons to dismiss the complaint, including that the plaintiffs have failed to show that the law school's actions caused them harm and that administrators never guaranteed law students a job or a specific salary. "What this case appears to be is that the plaintiffs just didn't get the job they wanted now, a few months or a couple of years after law school," Volpe said. "Success in the law takes time." Volpe pointed to President Obama and former St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa as examples of law graduates who went on to successful careers outside the law. Jesse Strauss, a sole practitioner representing the plaintiffs along with attorneys David Anziska and Frank Raimond, insisted the issue was not the employment outcomes of the nine plaintiffs; some of them have found jobs in the law but at least one was working at Starbucks. "The harm here is that our clients overpaid for a degree that is worth substantially less," he said. If Strauss could prove that the plaintiffs clearly paid more in tuition than their degrees were worth then he may be on to something... Btw, LOL @ the Obama/La Russa references. So I should pay for law school to become the President/Baseball manager? Haha... http://www.law.com/j...tion&slreturn=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 What about Jay Bilas? He makes me proud to go where I go..........unlike Ken Starr and Richard Nixon...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystikol87 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Venable partner Michael Volpe, representing New York Law School, offered Schweitzer numerous reasons to dismiss the complaint, including that the plaintiffs have failed to show that the law school's actions caused them harm and that administrators never guaranteed law students a job or a specific salary. "What this case appears to be is that the plaintiffs just didn't get the job they wanted now, a few months or a couple of years after law school," Volpe said. "Success in the law takes time." Volpe pointed to President Obama and former St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa as examples of law graduates who went on to successful careers outside the law. Jesse Strauss, a sole practitioner representing the plaintiffs along with attorneys David Anziska and Frank Raimond, insisted the issue was not the employment outcomes of the nine plaintiffs; some of them have found jobs in the law but at least one was working at Starbucks. "The harm here is that our clients overpaid for a degree that is worth substantially less," he said. If Strauss could prove that the plaintiffs clearly paid more in tuition than their degrees were worth then he may be on to something... Btw, LOL @ the Obama/La Russa references. So I should pay for law school to become the President/Baseball manager? Haha... http://www.law.com/j...tion&slreturn=1 Along with showing that the school misrepresented that value, too, of course.The schools are the least-cost-provider of that information, so a court could choose to slap them with some liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlins Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 Notice that none of those schools are really big names. I've always held the belief that it's not worth it to take out more student loan debt to finance trade schools (medical, law, business, etc.) unless you can get into a good one. That's part of the reason why there is something like $1 trillion+ of student loan debt in this country. People take out massive loans for mediocre schools and think that they are going to automatically get jobs and the government subsidizes the loans. On a separate note, I also don't think that PhD programs are worth the time if you can't get into a reputable program. I definitely agree with this. I have some friends who are applying for Law School and getting into places like Miami and Penn State, for example. I want to tell them that it's probably not worth it, but I risk being (even more of a?) complete asshole. I'm still not sure what to do in those situations...I'm at a T14 school, as they call it, and while many students are doing fine re: jobs, it hasn't been a cakewalk for a large number of my classmates, even people who are above median. So you're at Duke? I wanna stick in Miami and hope to practice here...What do you think of going to FIU with no/little tuition (full tuition at FIU is cheap as it is anyway-about 15k, around 25k less than UM)? Did a lot of research and toured the school. They're just a TTT right now but they're soaring fast; they jumped 19 spots in the rankings this past year, going from 132 to 113. All indications are that they should be able to crack the top 100 next year (if not the year after) and break into the second tier. The state of Florida has 13 law schools yet FIU has topped them all in terms of bar passing rates since 2007. They've been around just over 10 years and it seems to me like it's only a matter of time before they start receiving a lot of recognition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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