I think you could buy two good pitchers with Mark Buehrle's contract. Or do things like maybe acquire a real 3B.

 

Either way, one player does not mean that much to a team especially one who was worth a 2.1 WAR in 2012.

 

He's an overpaid, middle of the rotation guy. For what it's worth, saying he's the most consistent pitcher in baseball is the equivalent to saying we should keep Ricky Nolasco beyond 2012 because he consistently provides innings and consistently puts up a double-digit win total every year.

 

Consistent in the context it's being used in this thread is not incredibly valuable to say the least.

I pointed out his durability already.

 

So, fair enough.

 

Buehrle is a career 3.82 ERA guy, good for 30+ starts every year and 200+ innings.

Consistent? Yes. I never said no.

 

THE MOST consistent?

 

 

Name one pitcher in baseball over the past decade whose numbers are as similar as Buerhle's YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Consistency has jack sh*t to do with talent, like Piazza said you can be consistently bad or consistently good. Buerhle is consistently RELIABLE. You know just about every year he'll have an ERA under 4, that he will throw 200 innings, make 30+ starts, and win more games than he loses. He's not an ace by any means, but having that kind of consistency in your rotation is invaluable, and it's worth money. Buerhle is not going to be worth the $18 Mill a year he gets at the end of his deal, but he's also worth more than the $7 Million he made this year... It's just a backloaded deal, in the end it all evens out.

'Can buy two good pitchers' doesn't mean 'will buy two good pitchers' though.

 

That's hypothetical. It wont happen. You need to have mutual interest both ways. Plus you've got to factor in the idea that trading Buehrle is an utter scare for Free Agents. No contracts are guaranteed in Miami... can't have that message sent out.

 

Buehrle is a 2/3, sure. 3 on a good team, 2 on a bad team. I'd say that. But we're better off being littered with 3's than no 2 and 3 4/5's, you know?

Buerhle's paid what he's paid because the market last offseason dictated what he will be paid.

 

He is not overpaid, he is paid what the market determined he is worth.

 

Hanley could be considered overpaid, he signed an extension prior to his free agency. The market never dictated his worth.

 

For Buerhle to be overpaid, he would need to regress to the point where he is a consistant liability- much like Zito was and Pavano before him.

 

Then you are not getting what you paid for, which is a sub 4 ERA innings eater with double digit wins each year.

 

When he lasts 100 innings and has an era of 5 then you can argue he's overpaid.

 

He's paid what he was determined to be worth in other words.

I pointed out his durability already.

 

So, fair enough.

 

Buehrle is a career 3.82 ERA guy, good for 30+ starts every year and 200+ innings.

Consistent? Yes. I never said no.

 

THE MOST consistent?

 

 

Name one pitcher in baseball over the past decade whose numbers are as similar as Buerhle's YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Consistency has jack sh*t to do with talent, like Piazza said you can be consistently bad or consistently good. Buerhle is consistently RELIABLE. You know just about every year he'll have an ERA under 4, that he will throw 200 innings, make 30+ starts, and win more games than he loses. He's not an ace by any means, but having that kind of consistency in your rotation is invaluable, and it's worth money. Buerhle is not going to be worth the $18 Mill a year he gets at the end of his deal, but he's also worth more than the $7 Million he made this year... It's just a backloaded deal, in the end it all evens out.

 

Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia.

A lot of the best pitchers in baseball haven't been around long enough to pitch for a decade yet, but that doesn't make them less reliable.

 

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

 

Now your just being foolish. A backloaded deal involves working with numbers. He was paid x million in 2012 because the money he's missing is spread out in 20?? And 20??.

 

Aka,

2012 is X-y= salary.

2013 and beyond is

X+y= salary.

Buerhle's paid what he's paid because the market last offseason dictated what he will be paid.

 

He is not overpaid, he is paid what the market determined he is worth.

 

Hanley could be considered overpaid, he signed an extension prior to his free agency. The market never dictated his worth.

 

For Buerhle to be overpaid, he would need to regress to the point where he is a consistant liability- much like Zito was and Pavano before him.

 

Then you are not getting what you paid for, which is a sub 4 ERA innings eater with double digit wins each year.

 

When he lasts 100 innings and has an era of 5 then you can argue he's overpaid.

 

He's paid what he was determined to be worth in other words.

 

 

Buehrle's average salary is probably not an overpayment, but the setup of the contract makes the latter years an overpayment. The last two years are significantly worse than the first two years.

 

It is not overly difficult to find a pitcher who consistently gives you ERA's in the high 3's. There are a bunch of them this offseason. You could sign them. You could trade for that type of pitcher. etc., etc., etc. and they wouldn't cost nearly as much.

 

This is probably not a big deal to you because you think this team is going to spend like they did last year, but they're likely not going to do that.

 

In 2014, say we have a reasonable $90 million dollar payroll, 20% of that will be paid to Mark Buehrle. That is simply a lot of money for a guy who's not even an ace.

 

Remember that we signed all those guys because the team was expected to win. In 2012, our payroll was, I believe, 7th highest in all of baseball. It's fine if you're doing that.

 

With a limited budget, you're going to have holes if you spend a significant portion of it on certain players; as has been mentioned already, Buehrle isn't even an elite guy to pay it to.

 

Not to mention that some day, we're going to have to pay our RF'er. I hear that guy Giancarlo is pretty good. I'd hate to not be able to extend him because we're paying a guy like Mark Buehrle 37 million dollars for the last two years of his contract.

I pointed out his durability already.

 

So, fair enough.

 

Buehrle is a career 3.82 ERA guy, good for 30+ starts every year and 200+ innings.

Consistent? Yes. I never said no.

 

THE MOST consistent?

 

 

Name one pitcher in baseball over the past decade whose numbers are as similar as Buerhle's YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Consistency has jack sh*t to do with talent, like Piazza said you can be consistently bad or consistently good. Buerhle is consistently RELIABLE. You know just about every year he'll have an ERA under 4, that he will throw 200 innings, make 30+ starts, and win more games than he loses. He's not an ace by any means, but having that kind of consistency in your rotation is invaluable, and it's worth money. Buerhle is not going to be worth the $18 Mill a year he gets at the end of his deal, but he's also worth more than the $7 Million he made this year... It's just a backloaded deal, in the end it all evens out.

 

Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia.

A lot of the best pitchers in baseball haven't been around long enough to pitch for a decade yet, but that doesn't make them less reliable.

 

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

Roy Halladay? What about those two years in '04 and '05 where he only threw 133 and 141 innings, almost half what he normally throws? Or the 4.20 ERA in '04 that was MUCH higher than the ERA's before or after that. But these two inconsistent years could be flukes... Except he just had another year exactly like '04 with 156 innings pitcher and a 4.45 ERA in 2012. And he got paid $20 MILLION TO DO THAT!?!?!? Buerhle is more consistent.

 

CC Sabathia, on the other hand, is far more consistent that Halladay. He is probably the only pitcher that can claim the kind of consistency that Buerhle has. So, you successfully named ONE guy over the past 10 years that can even come close to him in terms of consistency. Well, I guess that means my arguement as THE most consistent starter in the game is 50% in jeopardy! But I can still make a damn good arguement...

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

 

Now your just being foolish. A backloaded deal involves working with numbers. He was paid x million in 2012 because the money he's missing is spread out in 20?? And 20??.

 

Aka,

2012 is X-y= salary.

2013 and beyond is

X+y= salary.

 

2012 already happened. Thank you, Mark Buehrle, for what you did in 2012. It was nice.

 

What matters now is 2013, 2014 and 2015. That's the way business works. In 2014, the team will have to pay Mark Buehrle 18 million dollars. In 2015, 19 million dollars. That amount of money going to one guy on a team that does not spend much. It makes it an overpayment.

 

That does not even out. It just is what it is. It makes the first two years nice and the last two years terrible. This is the last offseason to try and trade him and get some value in return because his salary for '13 is still nice.

 

Furthermore, the ultimate question is, can this team win this way? Do you believe we can win with contracts like that on the team? I don't believe we can. We're coming off a 69-win season and need to use that money (or at least a significant amount of that money since no team is going to take that entire contract off our hands) on other areas of the team. We have a lot of holes on this team.

 

It's nice that Buehrle is a reliable mid-rotation guy but it means nothing if we're paying him the amount we're paying him and have a bunch of holes on the team. The bottom line is winning and it's tough to win that way.

I pointed out his durability already.

 

So, fair enough.

 

Buehrle is a career 3.82 ERA guy, good for 30+ starts every year and 200+ innings.

Consistent? Yes. I never said no.

 

THE MOST consistent?

 

 

Name one pitcher in baseball over the past decade whose numbers are as similar as Buerhle's YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Consistency has jack sh*t to do with talent, like Piazza said you can be consistently bad or consistently good. Buerhle is consistently RELIABLE. You know just about every year he'll have an ERA under 4, that he will throw 200 innings, make 30+ starts, and win more games than he loses. He's not an ace by any means, but having that kind of consistency in your rotation is invaluable, and it's worth money. Buerhle is not going to be worth the $18 Mill a year he gets at the end of his deal, but he's also worth more than the $7 Million he made this year... It's just a backloaded deal, in the end it all evens out.

 

Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia.

A lot of the best pitchers in baseball haven't been around long enough to pitch for a decade yet, but that doesn't make them less reliable.

 

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

Roy Halladay? What about those two years in '04 and '05 where he only threw 133 and 141 innings, almost half what he normally throws? Or the 4.20 ERA in '04 that was MUCH higher than the ERA's before or after that. But these two inconsistent years could be flukes... Except he just had another year exactly like '04 with 156 innings pitcher and a 4.45 ERA in 2012. And he got paid $20 MILLION TO DO THAT!?!?!? Buerhle is more consistent.

 

CC Sabathia, on the other hand, is far more consistent that Halladay. He is probably the only pitcher that can claim the kind of consistency that Buerhle has. So, you successfully named ONE guy over the past 10 years that can even come close to him in terms of consistency. Well, I guess that means my arguement as THE most consistent starter in the game is 50% in jeopardy! But I can still make a damn good arguement...

 

What about the year Buehrle had with an ERA of 5? I can play this game too.

 

If you think any GM in baseball would take Buehrle's track record in the last decade over Halladay/Sabathia, you're being foolish.

 

Verlander, Felix, Kershaw, etc., etc., etc.

 

The only thing this is proving is that Buehrle is old. As I said in my last post, I can't mention other guys because they haven't been around for a decade but really, who cares?

 

When you're in a business, you don't pay for the past; you pay for future performance. Mark Buehrle is not one of baseball's most valuable pitchers right now nor does he project to be that in the coming years. He is replaceable and is definitely not worth the money he's going to make starting in 2014. Especially on a team that has a bunch of holes and does not project to win many games in its current state.

 

We should be rebuilding right now, not paying guys with nice careers to retire here.

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

 

Now your just being foolish. A backloaded deal involves working with numbers. He was paid x million in 2012 because the money he's missing is spread out in 20?? And 20??.

 

Aka,

2012 is X-y= salary.

2013 and beyond is

X+y= salary.

 

2012 already happened. Thank you, Mark Buehrle, for what you did in 2012. It was nice.

 

What matters now is 2013, 2014 and 2015. That's the way business works. In 2014, the team will have to pay Mark Buehrle 18 million dollars. In 2015, 19 million dollars. That amount of money going to one guy on a team that does not spend much. It makes it an overpayment.

 

That does not even out. It just is what it is. It makes the first two years nice and the last two years terrible. This is the last offseason to try and trade him and get some value in return because his salary for '13 is still nice.

 

Furthermore, the ultimate question is, can this team win this way? Do you believe we can win with contracts like that on the team? I don't believe we can. We're coming off a 69-win season and need to use that money (or at least a significant amount of that money since no team is going to take that entire contract off our hands) on other areas of the team. We have a lot of holes on this team.

 

It's nice that Buehrle is a reliable mid-rotation guy but it means nothing if we're paying him the amount we're paying him and have a bunch of holes on the team. The bottom line is winning and it's tough to win that way.

 

Erick,

I apologize. I am driving on the turnpike and cannot reply or acknowledge your argument with the attention it deserves.

 

My response is coming shortly.

 

Sincerely,

C---s F-------d-z

 

Piazza31

 

 

 

CMF

I pointed out his durability already.

 

So, fair enough.

 

Buehrle is a career 3.82 ERA guy, good for 30+ starts every year and 200+ innings.

Consistent? Yes. I never said no.

 

THE MOST consistent?

 

 

Name one pitcher in baseball over the past decade whose numbers are as similar as Buerhle's YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Consistency has jack sh*t to do with talent, like Piazza said you can be consistently bad or consistently good. Buerhle is consistently RELIABLE. You know just about every year he'll have an ERA under 4, that he will throw 200 innings, make 30+ starts, and win more games than he loses. He's not an ace by any means, but having that kind of consistency in your rotation is invaluable, and it's worth money. Buerhle is not going to be worth the $18 Mill a year he gets at the end of his deal, but he's also worth more than the $7 Million he made this year... It's just a backloaded deal, in the end it all evens out.

 

Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia.

A lot of the best pitchers in baseball haven't been around long enough to pitch for a decade yet, but that doesn't make them less reliable.

 

As for the contract, it does not even out. We're reaching the backloaded portion of the deal; thus, the backloaded part of the deal is the only thing that matters now. What he made in 2012 is rather irrelevant at this point; it already happened.

 

Roy Halladay? What about those two years in '04 and '05 where he only threw 133 and 141 innings, almost half what he normally throws? Or the 4.20 ERA in '04 that was MUCH higher than the ERA's before or after that. But these two inconsistent years could be flukes... Except he just had another year exactly like '04 with 156 innings pitcher and a 4.45 ERA in 2012. And he got paid $20 MILLION TO DO THAT!?!?!? Buerhle is more consistent.

 

CC Sabathia, on the other hand, is far more consistent that Halladay. He is probably the only pitcher that can claim the kind of consistency that Buerhle has. So, you successfully named ONE guy over the past 10 years that can even come close to him in terms of consistency. Well, I guess that means my arguement as THE most consistent starter in the game is 50% in jeopardy! But I can still make a damn good arguement...

 

What about the year Buehrle had with an ERA of 5? I can play this game too.

 

If you think any GM in baseball would take Buehrle's track record in the last decade over Halladay/Sabathia, you're being foolish.

 

I know you're the king of twisting words, but again, I never said I would take Buerhle's track record over Halladay's. I said that Buerhle's career has been more consistent. It's been consistent enough that he's only had ONE year out of the ordinary in comparison to Halladay's three.

 

Halladay is usually a stud and had three years he was ordinary. Buerhle is usually solid and had one year he was bad. Nobody ever said he's better than Doc, just stating a FACT that he is VERY arguably the most consistent starter in baseball over the past 10+ years. Period.

Buehrle has had more than one year with an ERA over 4, himself. It wasn't just the 4.99 ERA year so it seems like you're nitpicking.

 

The thing about Buehrle that makes him consistent is that he's never injured. Halladay has been injured.

I do think Buehrle has had a good career but when people talk really highly about him, they're really not talking about the quality of his pitching; they talk about his durability and the quantity of innings he provides due to his durability.

 

Perhaps I just don't value that as highly as some others do. It's definitely not worth 18.5 million dollars per year on a team with a variety of holes.

Buehrle has had more than one year with an ERA over 4, himself. It wasn't just the 4.99 ERA year so it seems like you're nitpicking.

 

The thing about Buehrle that makes him consistent is that he's never injured. Halladay has been injured.

I do think Buehrle has had a good career but when people talk really highly about him, they're really not talking about the quality of his pitching; they talk about his durability and the quantity of innings he provides due to his durability.

 

Perhaps I just don't value that as highly as some others do. It's definitely not worth 18.5 million dollars per year on a team with a variety of holes.

 

 

I agree, it's not worth $18 Million per year. I get your point, I think we all do.

 

But if he produces identical seasons like 2012 over his 4 year deal, he probably is worth the $14 Million average annual salary he'll receive. Especially considering he could have and should have easily won 15-18 games this year with the performance he had.

 

I get your point that '12 is in the past, but you need to consider his 4-year deal as a whole as long as he's still a part of the organization...

Just a little bumpy bumpy