It is not a Miami fans problem, it is an ownership problem. I talked to a lot of people at the ballpark and their main complaint was that they feel Loria doesn't give a sh*t about them or about the team.

 

It's both the fans and ownership. FO went out and spent last year, people still didn't show up. They spent in 05, people didn't show up. The casual fan has made excuse after excuse after excuse not to go, they had none last year until mid-June when the team started to tank. It's not just the ownership.

 

 

So it makes you wonder why Loria wanted to stay here ? Didn't he do any research on how it would go ?

 

I still think it's more on ownership than anything else. People here have had negative feelings towards the franchise and this ownership for years and years, and it may just have been broken beyond repair. Now after last year and off-season it is completely broken, and I can safely say no matter what, even with playoffs, there is a great deal of South Fla that just will never care as long as this owner is still here. He completely broke the trust, and has definitely made a lot of enemies in City and County Hall. He will probably never, ever get help from them ever again. I believe they might make a lukewarm show of support if Loria wants an All-Star Game here in the future, but they will do just what they have to do on the surface. That could undermine any chance we have of landing the game.

 

Now because fans will probably never show, he has his built in excuse to never raise the payroll. It's his automatic cash cow of revenue sharing and who knows, maybe that was really what he was after all along. He gets his stadium, gets to screw the fans (who he thinks just won't show up not because of anything he has done), gets to add value (the new stadium) to his team in case someone makes a really stupid big offer to buy. I'm sure some will admire him here as a very smart and savvy businessman. Kudo's to you, he is your hero !

 

But he also leaves a path of destruction behind him, in a wrecked & broken fanbase, political enemies, the screwing other local franchises (the Dolphins). I'm sure he doesn't care, and thinks its all a joke. But you know karma seems to always be a funny lady and seems to strike when you least expect it.

 

For those that think he really cares about the team, then how can he put the product on the field and have the balls to charge what he does for tickets and concessions ? It looks like its more about the money than anything else. Then again for those who think he's a great businessman you have your hero, good deal for you. I'm happy for you.

 

I think eventually other more powerful owners will get tired of subsidizing Loria's team (and growing art collection paid for by the money he makes from the Marlins) and will fight back. He probably has 2 more years and they are looking at him closely to see if he really does want to put together a winner. Now if this is all about selling the team and setting it up for that, then I am sure they might aleady be in the know and are silent on it because of that.

 

It's all speculation I guess, but it would be great if we came here just to talk about baseball and not about an owner. But this team is so bad, what more can be said ? Maybe less is better about that abomination we have on the field.

It is not a Miami fans problem, it is an ownership problem. I talked to a lot of people at the ballpark and their main complaint was that they feel Loria doesn't give a sh*t about them or about the team.

 

It's both the fans and ownership. FO went out and spent last year, people still didn't show up. They spent in 05, people didn't show up. The casual fan has made excuse after excuse after excuse not to go, they had none last year until mid-June when the team started to tank. It's not just the ownership.

 

 

As for the fans, he had to have known, unless he is just totally clueless, that this fanbase was fragile and tenative. They didn't trust him, and it was going to take time to win them back completely. If he and his people around him didn't know this or cared to do research and find out, then its their own stupidity.

 

Personally I don't think he or his people are that stupid, but that this was all pre-meditated. Because the reactions were too swift. I think he had a clue that people wouldn't show, he did what MLB expected him to do, and that is spend some money to make a show (made Selig happy), and if they catch lightning and win & crowds come its all good, if they don't you break it down ASAP and save as much money as you can.

 

Of course no one except Loria really knows, and all we can do is speculate.

This is the sad state of major league baseball in Miami right now. It's so sad, and so unneccessary. Sometimes I really wish Loria had taken the team to Las Vegas or San Antonio.

 

That's such a dumb comment. Within 5 years, Loria will be gone and the Marlins will be here forever. If you can't put up with a few bad seasons, then you aren't much of a baseball fan.

 

 

Not really, because of today's media coverage, I can follow the Marlins whether or not I live in Miami, and there is other baseball played locally if I want to see it. Granted its not MLB but its there if you wish to see live baseball.

 

I also travel extensively at times and get to visit a lot of MLB cities, and can always catch a game when I am in those towns. It would just go back to the way it was before the Marlins.

 

And as for Loria, some here speculate that he'll be the owner for a long time, and that after him, will come Samson, who will probably act the same or worse than Loria, so where is the hope ?

It gets tiring talking about the poor ownership

 

Good. Maybe in the future you'll spare us your fact-free diatribes comprised of nothing but mindless Loria-hatred. The idiotic media has already written all of the debunked, stupid stuff you repeat like a parrot. Years ago. I get it. You don't like him. You can't put your finger on any facts at all, but, by golly, you really, really don't like him.

 

I recommend that you start an anti-Loria boycott board and take a half-dozen of your fellow believers with you.

Horsefeathers.

 

There has never been any significant base of paying Marlins fans and there still isn't to this day. About 5,000 before and after the stadium. Pitiful.

 

And who was "pilfered"? Tourists? If you want to make the argument that someone was "pilfered" the logical objects of that are people who work in the local hotel industry -- they are the ones who suffer from lower employment than would otherwise be the case in the absence of the 6% hotel-bed tax (1% of ) which pays for the stadium. But, that tax was enacted long ago and the stadium didn't raise it one iota, unlike what the Dolphins want to do.

 

Loria will spend money only as revenue justifies it, as they have repeatedly said. When they get optimistic and stick their necks out and then get them chopped off to the tune of 47 mill when the fans don't show up they have to cut back drastically. '12 was a total financial disaster. Until fans figure this simple equation out, it will continue to be the case, no matter who owns the team.

 

This ain't New York and Loria ain't Steinbrenner. And there are at least 10 MLB owners with equally lousy records -- starting with the Cubs. Fans can either show up or watch the cycle repeat ad infinitum, no owner will tolerate large losses.

 

 

Then why build the stadium ? If the fan base never existed then why didn't he abandon the stadium in south Florida and move the team ? It just doesn't make any sense.

Blue Jays are owned by a multi billion dollar corporation. They can take a risk easier.

 

 

Then Loria needs to sell, he can't afford to be an owner.

 

I mean how fun can this be for him if he wants to win. It looks like he has a team that will lose 90+ games and finish last for the 3rd year in a row, with what prospects for the future ? If the pattern continues, he is trading Stanton in the next year or so, then Fernandez by 2015 and Yelich the year after that. There is nothing for fans to cling to, not a shred of a reason to become loyal to the Marlins. Doesn't Loria get that or is it always just going to be about pocketbook issues 1st ? Again if that's the case he needs to get out of MLB and go back to AAA where money is not as much of an issue.

It is not a Miami fans problem, it is an ownership problem. I talked to a lot of people at the ballpark and their main complaint was that they feel Loria doesn't give a sh*t about them or about the team.

 

It's both the fans and ownership. FO went out and spent last year, people still didn't show up. They spent in 05, people didn't show up. The casual fan has made excuse after excuse after excuse not to go, they had none last year until mid-June when the team started to tank. It's not just the ownership.Toronto Blue Jays attendance 2012 2,099,663, avg 25,922

 

Miami Marlins 2012 attendance 2219444, avg 27,401

I'm pretty sure more people ACTUALLY showed up to Toronto's games rather than bought a ticket and said, "f*** it we ain't going" as was the case with the Fish. "Turnstile Clicks"

 

 

 

 

I don't know about that as I have MLB Extra Innings and watch a lot of baseball other than the Marlins games. I saw a number of games last year with the Jays (because my family knows the family of JP Arencibia) and saw that many times there was Sun Life type of crowds unless it was a Yankee or Red Sox game. I remember one game when they played KC it may have been no more than in the hundreds at the game and the weather was perfect and the roof open.

Why build the stadium?

 

Surely, you're not that dense. Loria believed, as did everyone, that a baseball stadium with a roof and a/c would solve the attendance problem. No more rain, no more humidity. The ultimate in fan comfort. Brand new. A baseball palace. And, did you forget that we have been trying to get that done for 20 years?

 

He and everyone else was wrong.

 

He and everyone else only found out that there was a fan problem AFTER the stadium was built. Hard to justify moving before that. But, I'm sure it all makes perfect sense in your world of Loria-hatred where mindless bile rules the day.

A new owner isn't going to accept big monetary losses either. Fans didn't show when Loria made the effort last year, and that's all on the fans.

Everyone keeps saying the fans didn't show last season. They also keep saying the ballpark didn't fix attendance problems. Do you retards truly believe the marlins should have sold out every game last year? Remember, they gave up 3 months into the season. Attendance was fine last season for a team that sucked royal dick. Too bad it won't be as full as it was last season for another decade.

 

 

Well speaking as apparently one of the resident retards, I never said they should've sold out every game but it also shouldn't have been as empty as it was.

 

They didn't suck *expletive* in May. The announced attendance was only decent for some days because of those mini packs people had to buy in order to get opening night tickets. Most of those fans didn't come back after that first game and then those tickets went unsold on reseller sites like StubHub. That's pathetic behavior from a "fanbase" that was given a new ballpark and a high priced roster. Face facts, the majority of the "boycotting" fans are only going to come when it's playoff time and that'll never change.

Further on the comparison between Marlins Park and Target Field, the FO assumed 90% of capacity, not 102%.

 

They probably would have been very happy with 85%. But, they only sold 72% and wound up with a dismal 46% actual butts in seats.

 

That's a total disaster. HALF of what it should have been. And it's a direct reflection of the crummy fan base. Not even a 600 mill brand-new stadium paid for by other people with a roof (no rain - no delays) and a/c (no humidity or discomfort) can get them to show up.

 

And I say all of this as a "total retard."

 

:lol

It is not a Miami fans problem, it is an ownership problem. I talked to a lot of people at the ballpark and their main complaint was that they feel Loria doesn't give a sh*t about them or about the team.

 

It's both the fans and ownership. FO went out and spent last year, people still didn't show up. They spent in 05, people didn't show up. The casual fan has made excuse after excuse after excuse not to go, they had none last year until mid-June when the team started to tank. It's not just the ownership.Toronto Blue Jays attendance 2012 2,099,663, avg 25,922

 

Miami Marlins 2012 attendance 2219444, avg 27,401

I'm pretty sure more people ACTUALLY showed up to Toronto's games rather than bought a ticket and said, "f*** it we ain't going" as was the case with the Fish. "Turnstile Clicks"

Not sure how you can be so sure. If you notice, many games in other places have loads of empty seats, while attendance figures are higher. Toronto is one of those places where the blue seats have been empty in vast quantities. We'll see if this year for them, if they win, will be different. I really do not care because we are stuck with our reality of ownership, regardless of how other owners operate, but most places are not Wrigley, Fenway or St Louis.

 

 

 

 

I have a friend that lives in Washington State and I often call him late at night when there is a Mariners game and we watch together. This is a pic of part of the stadium from the 2nd inning for the game against Houston. It was about 7:30pm local time.

 

 

 

This is more the norm than the exception the last two years, yet this ownership made it a priority to sign King Felix to one of the largest contracts ever. Smart maybe not, but at least they showed some loyalty to their fanbase.

Again, a multi-billionaire owns them too. Sure, if a multi-billionaire buys the Marlins -- he may be willing to take losses for a few years as a risk but why would a multi-billionaire buy the Marlins now? After seeing how the new ballpark didn't make a difference, a good businessman (which is how people become multi-billionaires) won't touch them.

There is no plan dude. There never has been.

 

 

 

Oh I think there's a plan, it's just kept very close to the vest of Jeffrey Loria.

There is no plan dude. There never has been.

 

 

 

Yeah, there was. Revenue was going to match payroll. They said this over and over again.

 

They made the effort, the fans there didn't.

By defending the Marlins in recent weeks, I've been called "ignorant" and a "retard" here. So nice to not be able to have a different opinion than the typical fans.

Not anytime soon as long as Loria owns the team. It's obvious the fans don't trust him. Thus the poor attendance in a new stadium.

 

When he goes, baseball COULD be saved in Miami if things are done right.

 

 

Absolutely, and I think it will rebound, but not as long as Loria is the owner.

 

If he thought people would be so dumb as to trust him that quickly, then he is as clueless and tone-deaf as we have heard he is. They have been burned twice before and one of those was by Loria (or at least they perceive they were burned, we really know it wasn't until 2005), if he doesn't get that by now, even a brick wall falling on him won't make him realize it.

 

But reality is what is perceived sometimes and Loria just was being an idiot if he didn't know enough to gauge that the public was watching him, and many of them were just waiting for him to do what he did, and then they can say, I told you so. He needed to be more patient. These people are customers, and in business even if they are not always right, you need to treat them that way, if you want to get their business again, and again and again. Loria just killed whatever chance that had of ever happening as long as he owns the team.

 

Good luck to Loria, but the odds are really stacked against him in getting not only this team to a championship, but even to the playoffs. I don't think they'll ever make them as long as he is the owner. Hopefully in the next couple of years he gets tired of it all and sells. If not, be happy Loria with revenue sharing because that will be basically the only money you'll have coming in.

Get a beautiful new 600 mill stadium built ...

 

It's amazing that taxpayers aren't more grateful for the $2.4 billion stadium they were forced to build for Loria.

 

 

I know they voted for it didn't they.....oh wait.....

Gave up 3 months into the season?

 

Not really, it was 4 months -- they didn't trade Baby Hanley until July 26th.

 

But, revenue was well into the tank long before that, even after a great May. At 4 months of disappointment they pulled the plug. They're not stupid -- the fans weren't showing up. And the lousy rate through the turnstiles was reflected in food and liquor concessions and merchandise and parking and all the rest of it. They were losing their rear ends and limited it to "only" 47 million.

 

Apparently, that makes the FO and anyone who doesn't trash them "retards."

Not anytime soon as long as Loria owns the team. It's obvious the fans don't trust him. Thus the poor attendance in a new stadium.

 

When he goes, baseball COULD be saved in Miami if things are done right.

 

 

Absolutely, and I think it will rebound, but not as long as Loria is the owner.

 

 

There's always a new excuse why people aren't showing and there will be another if he sells and it happens again to the new owner (which it will).

By defending the Marlins in recent weeks, I've been called "ignorant" and a "retard" here. So nice to not be able to have a different opinion than the typical fans.

 

 

While I disagree with your overall good view of Loria, I also get offended whenever differences turn in to personal attacks.

 

I just can't grasp why we have an owner who seemingly is the one who must force fiscal sanity as an excuse (or reason) because I as a fan have a hard time around the fact that 3 teams just above us last year in attendance, Cincy, 28,900, Atlanta 29800 and Washington 30,000 can have the lineups and long term deals (ones that they actually keep players more than one year without using the backloaded scheme as a way to pretend that "we tried"). Also, Atlanta has what is well known as a terrible TV contract, as bad as ours. Yet, somehow, I do not see a difference of 1500-2600 fans per game as the reason for a discrepancy of $50 million and more in payroll-which equals a crap team.

 

Either we are just more sane or they are doing something different-or maybe we are using the Wayne method. Baseball activity only instead of putting all the revenue(in different entities) from all sources against the costs. If we are losing $47 mill, then I should look up the losses being generated by the huge contracts the Nationals have.

The actual butts in seat attendance was fine from start-1997, and growing. Even from the start in 1993 it took time for folks to get used to the comings/goings/parking. It's how it is in this market and any front office that failed to take that into account in projecting butts in seats in a new stadium was or would be incompetent. Whether the team performed under-over or woefully under expectations. In retrospect, a better plan might have been less spent upfront on talent and more spent in promoting alternate transport(buses for $10) to get those butts initially in the seats. After all, once they saw how quick the trip was and how beautiful the new stadium is they'd come back on their own gas and parking dollar.

 

Attendance was only "fine" in '93-'97 to the extent that it about equaled average NL attendance over those 5 years. Per game, it declined in years 2 through 4.

 

And, in fact, '97 was the last time attendance was above the NL average at all -- by a whopping 87K. In a WS year. It then continued to shrink all the way through 2002 to 813K. Before Loria even arrived here. Thanks, Wayne.

 

What are you saying with "it took time for folks to get used to the comings/goings/parking" and suggesting "alternate transport (buses for $10) to get those butts initially in the seats"? That Marlins fans as a group are too stupid to figure out how to get to a new stadium or figure out how to park?

 

I don't think the FO did anything other than underestimate just how bad the fan base is here. Look at the last new stadium to open, Target Field in another mid-sized market. Granted, the Twins had a 50 year history in MN, much longer than the Marlins' 20 years here, but 20 years ain't nuthin'.

 

The Twins had sold as few as 1 million tickets are recently as 2000, 10 years before Target opened, just as the Marlins sold only 813K 10 years before Marlins Park opened. Yet, the Twins sold 102% of capacity the first TWO years (SRO was the excess) and Target was a million ABOVE the AL average in 2010. We were 400K BELOW the NL average in 2012. Two new stadiums, two similar-sized markets, completely different results.

 

Maybe the average Marlins fan is too stupid to figure out how to get to a new stadium and park. Or maybe they just don't care.

 

 

The Twins also were in the playoffs the last season at Humphrey Dome and 1st year of Target Field. Think that might have helped a bit ?

Get a beautiful new 600 mill stadium built ...

 

It's amazing that taxpayers aren't more grateful for the $2.4 billion stadium they were forced to build for Loria.

 

 

I know they voted for it didn't they.....oh wait.....

 

 

 

Surely, both of you have heard of interest, right? Do you state the price of a house you just bought based on the total of all of your future mortgage payments? I didn't think so.

 

This has been discussed and debunked. To summarize, it wasn't Loria who decided how the county would structure their bonds. The cost of the stadium and parking garages is about 600 mill. Period.

 

And yes, the voters here did vote on it. They did that when they elected the clowns who then voted on their behalf to allocate part of an existing tax on TOURISTS, not locals to pay for the stadium.

 

When will the Loria-haters stop embarrassing themselves with bogus arguments?

When will the Loria-haters stop embarrassing themselves with bogus arguments?

 

 

Never, we're "retards" remember. They are right, nothing we say matters even if it's a fact.

The Twins also were in the playoffs the last season at Humphrey Dome and 1st year of Target Field. Think that might have helped a bit ?

 

 

Yeah, that explains a million-fan discrepancy.

 

:lol