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9/4 Postgame - Outbeefcaked


mrchainsaw
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Coghlan allows almost every other hitter in the order to bat in their natural position. Yelich can hit third, Stanton clean up, etc.

 

 

That's pretty meaningless, especially for this season. On top of that, I'm not quite sure you are correct in assigning those "natural positions." I'm not even sure such a thing exists to be quite honest.

 

In mostly all baseball situations, having Coghlan hit lead-off is completely idiotic but I like Carlos Rodon so I'm cool with it.

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Coghlan allows almost every other hitter in the order to bat in their natural position. Yelich can hit third, Stanton clean up, etc.

 

 

That's pretty meaningless, especially for this season. On top of that, I'm not quite sure you are correct in assigning those "natural positions." I'm not even sure such a thing exists to be quite honest.

 

In mostly all baseball situations, having Coghlan hit lead-off is completely idiotic but I like Carlos Rodon so I'm cool with it.

 

 

Having Chris Coghlan lead off is our best option at this moment. I mean, considering pretty much every person that has led off this year, with the exception of Yelich, can't post an OBP over .300. At least Coghlan can get on base around .320-.350 and has proven it.

 

And you don't think hitters have a natural spot in the batting order? For instance, Stanton has historically been a terrible hitter batting third, whereas he has generally had tons of success batting fourth. Yelich is a natural #3 hitter, capable of hitting for average, power, and spraying the ball to all fields. Basically he is capable of hitting in any situation, and you generally want your most well-rounded hitter batting third. Usually hitters like Solano succeed batting second because he doesn't K often, and has the ability to hit the ball the other way. So he won't strand runners often and can move guys over with the hit and run, etc. LoMo is your prototypical #5-6 hitter, a guy that drives in runs and has pop but isn't the best on your team at either. Same goes for Ruggz. Hech and Mathis are your weakest hitters, therefore they fall into the least important spots in the lineup.

 

To say that guys don't generally fall into a natural spot in the order, based on general baseball situations and their particular talents and skills, is really silly. It's pretty clear Stanton ain't a #3 hitter, it's pretty clear LoMo shouldn't be hitting cleanup, and it's damn certain Solano or Lucas or Polanco etc should NOT be hitting anywhere from 3-6 in the order.

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Coghlan allows almost every other hitter in the order to bat in their natural position. Yelich can hit third, Stanton clean up, etc.

 

That's pretty meaningless, especially for this season. On top of that, I'm not quite sure you are correct in assigning those "natural positions." I'm not even sure such a thing exists to be quite honest.

 

In mostly all baseball situations, having Coghlan hit lead-off is completely idiotic but I like Carlos Rodon so I'm cool with it.

Having Chris Coghlan lead off is our best option at this moment. I mean, considering pretty much every person that has led off this year, with the exception of Yelich, can't post an OBP over .300. At least Coghlan can get on base around .320-.350 and has proven it.

 

And you don't think hitters have a natural spot in the batting order? For instance, Stanton has historically been a terrible hitter batting third, whereas he has generally had tons of success batting fourth. Yelich is a natural #3 hitter, capable of hitting for average, power, and spraying the ball to all fields. Basically he is capable of hitting in any situation, and you generally want your most well-rounded hitter batting third. Usually hitters like Solano succeed batting second because he doesn't K often, and has the ability to hit the ball the other way. So he won't strand runners often and can move guys over with the hit and run, etc. LoMo is your prototypical #5-6 hitter, a guy that drives in runs and has pop but isn't the best on your team at either. Same goes for Ruggz. Hech and Mathis are your weakest hitters, therefore they fall into the least important spots in the lineup.

 

To say that guys don't generally fall into a natural spot in the order, based on general baseball situations and their particular talents and skills, is really silly. It's pretty clear Stanton ain't a #3 hitter, it's pretty clear LoMo shouldn't be hitting cleanup, and it's damn certain Solano or Lucas or Polanco etc should NOT be hitting anywhere from 3-6 in the order.

 

How the hell is Stanton not a #3 hitter?

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So, these stats exist:

 

I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Batting 3rd 132 131 569 478 71 121 30 1 31 64 85 149 .253 .371 .515 .885

Batting 4th 77 77 321 277 43 73 22 1 13 36 38 94 .264 .361 .491 .852

 

These are the splits for Stanton batting third and batting fourth in his career.

His best numbers, actually, are as a #6 hitter, but nobody would put him 6th.

 

I'd have to say as a #3 hitter, he's a better overall hitter. Sample sizes a bit different, but both are good enough.

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Coghlan allows almost every other hitter in the order to bat in their natural position. Yelich can hit third, Stanton clean up, etc.

 

 

That's pretty meaningless, especially for this season. On top of that, I'm not quite sure you are correct in assigning those "natural positions." I'm not even sure such a thing exists to be quite honest.

 

In mostly all baseball situations, having Coghlan hit lead-off is completely idiotic but I like Carlos Rodon so I'm cool with it.

 

 

Having Chris Coghlan lead off is our best option at this moment. I mean, considering pretty much every person that has led off this year, with the exception of Yelich, can't post an OBP over .300. At least Coghlan can get on base around .320-.350 and has proven it.

 

And you don't think hitters have a natural spot in the batting order? For instance, Stanton has historically been a terrible hitter batting third, whereas he has generally had tons of success batting fourth. Yelich is a natural #3 hitter, capable of hitting for average, power, and spraying the ball to all fields. Basically he is capable of hitting in any situation, and you generally want your most well-rounded hitter batting third. Usually hitters like Solano succeed batting second because he doesn't K often, and has the ability to hit the ball the other way. So he won't strand runners often and can move guys over with the hit and run, etc. LoMo is your prototypical #5-6 hitter, a guy that drives in runs and has pop but isn't the best on your team at either. Same goes for Ruggz. Hech and Mathis are your weakest hitters, therefore they fall into the least important spots in the lineup.

 

To say that guys don't generally fall into a natural spot in the order, based on general baseball situations and their particular talents and skills, is really silly. It's pretty clear Stanton ain't a #3 hitter, it's pretty clear LoMo shouldn't be hitting cleanup, and it's damn certain Solano or Lucas or Polanco etc should NOT be hitting anywhere from 3-6 in the order.

 

 

 

 

I don't know why you continue to overrate Coghlan. He had a flukey year in 2009 owed to a high BABIP in the second half. Since then he's been terrible. Unless he proves himself otherwise, he's easily one of the worst hitters that could be plugged into the lineup on a daily basis. He's posted a .305 OBP from 2010 to the present and a .284 OBP over the last three seasons. That's pretty shitty. To say that he's likely to get on base really isn't true. There's no reason to put one of your worst hitters in the position where he would likely get the most ABs.

 

And you are completely wrong about Stanton's numbers as Mike's shown above. Did you even bother to look that up?

 

Quite simply, we don't even know what kinds of hitters we even have yet in some of the younger players (like Yelich). Approaches can sometimes change when making the transition from the minors to the majors. Since he's been getting on base at a decent clip and not hitting with tremendous power, I think right now he's better suited for 1 or 2 in the lineup.

 

And, yes, guys like Morrison probably shouldn't be number 4 hitters but that has nothing to do with Chris Coghlan being in or out of the lineup. That has more to do with the fact that most of the hitters are either really shitty and shouldn't be in a major league lineup on a daily basis.

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So, these stats exist:

 

I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Batting 3rd 132 131 569 478 71 121 30 1 31 64 85 149 .253 .371 .515 .885

Batting 4th 77 77 321 277 43 73 22 1 13 36 38 94 .264 .361 .491 .852

 

These are the splits for Stanton batting third and batting fourth in his career.

His best numbers, actually, are as a #6 hitter, but nobody would put him 6th.

 

I'd have to say as a #3 hitter, he's a better overall hitter. Sample sizes a bit different, but both are good enough.

 

 

Both numbers are very similar, and the sample size definitely makes a difference considering how streaky he is.

 

Bottom line is, he doesn't make nearly enough contact to make me want to bat him third in my lineup. He struggles just to put the bat on the ball in way too many situations. Will batting third get him up to bat more often? Sure, he saw 4.2 ab's per game hitting cleanup, and 4.3 ab's per game hitting third... Clearly that is a ridiculously irrelevant difference. He kills wayyyyy too many innings with shitty at-bats, and leaves the "clean-up" for someone like Placido Polanco. Does he do OK now and then, yea, he is Giancarlo. Is he an ideal #3 hitter? No, I'd much rather have a Yelich type guy in that spot that is able to do just about anything in any situation to drive guys in by any means necessary, or at the VERY least, try and put guys in scoring position FOR Giancarlo.

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So, these stats exist:

 

I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Batting 3rd 132 131 569 478 71 121 30 1 31 64 85 149 .253 .371 .515 .885

Batting 4th 77 77 321 277 43 73 22 1 13 36 38 94 .264 .361 .491 .852

 

These are the splits for Stanton batting third and batting fourth in his career.

His best numbers, actually, are as a #6 hitter, but nobody would put him 6th.

 

I'd have to say as a #3 hitter, he's a better overall hitter. Sample sizes a bit different, but both are good enough.

 

 

Both numbers are very similar, and the sample size definitely makes a difference considering how streaky he is.

 

Bottom line is, he doesn't make nearly enough contact to make me want to bat him third in my lineup. He struggles just to put the bat on the ball in way too many situations. Will batting third get him up to bat more often? Sure, he saw 4.2 ab's per game hitting cleanup, and 4.3 ab's per game hitting third... Clearly that is a ridiculously irrelevant difference. He kills wayyyyy too many innings with sh*tty at-bats, and leaves the "clean-up" for someone like Placido Polanco. Does he do OK now and then, yea, he is Giancarlo. Is he an ideal #3 hitter? No, I'd much rather have a Yelich type guy in that spot that is able to do just about anything in any situation to drive guys in by any means necessary, or at the VERY least, try and put guys in scoring position FOR Giancarlo.

 

 

Assuming we still have Giancarlo come 2015/2016, he'll be batting fourth, so don't worry. We have Yelich and [hopefully!] Moran who can bat third. Also assuming we don't make any trades of bigger named guys, this could be a 2015 lineup:

 

LF Yelich

C Barnes*

3B Moran

RF Stanton

1B Morrison

CF Ozuna/Marisnick

2B Dietrich*

SS Hechavarria*

P Pitchers and stuff

 

*Subject to change.

 

Nothing set in stone. Penguino and Erick (and a couple others), I know your opinion on Barnes. I'm high on him, personally. Yes, walk rate is a big reason, but the fact is he gets on base and makes a lot of contact. Minor league career OBP of .386 and OPS of .800. That's pretty good from a catcher. Even if he OPSed .750, let's say his OBP is still around .350, .360 as a big leaguer. That'd be good to have up at the top, no?

 

Also - Wild Card, whenever Stanton gets a runner in scoring position, he's just ... not that good. He has little ability to adjust and learn how to just get an RBI rather than flailing wildly trying to drive in half the team. I love Stanton, but it's true. 119 Ks in 490 PA in his career with RISP.

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So, these stats exist:

 

I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS

Batting 3rd 132 131 569 478 71 121 30 1 31 64 85 149 .253 .371 .515 .885

Batting 4th 77 77 321 277 43 73 22 1 13 36 38 94 .264 .361 .491 .852

 

These are the splits for Stanton batting third and batting fourth in his career.

His best numbers, actually, are as a #6 hitter, but nobody would put him 6th.

 

I'd have to say as a #3 hitter, he's a better overall hitter. Sample sizes a bit different, but both are good enough.

 

 

Both numbers are very similar, and the sample size definitely makes a difference considering how streaky he is.

 

Bottom line is, he doesn't make nearly enough contact to make me want to bat him third in my lineup. He struggles just to put the bat on the ball in way too many situations. Will batting third get him up to bat more often? Sure, he saw 4.2 ab's per game hitting cleanup, and 4.3 ab's per game hitting third... Clearly that is a ridiculously irrelevant difference. He kills wayyyyy too many innings with sh*tty at-bats, and leaves the "clean-up" for someone like Placido Polanco. Does he do OK now and then, yea, he is Giancarlo. Is he an ideal #3 hitter? No, I'd much rather have a Yelich type guy in that spot that is able to do just about anything in any situation to drive guys in by any means necessary, or at the VERY least, try and put guys in scoring position FOR Giancarlo.

 

 

A few posts ago you said that Stanton was terrible at hitting third and needs to hit fourth. Nothing in the statistics says this. In fact, the "similarity" you allude to for both lines pretty much says that Stanton hits just as well in either spot. So basically he doesn't benefit at all from hitting 4th.

 

Contact generally isn't that important in the number 3 hole, because there are downsides to putting the ball in play, such as GIDP. What does matter though is basically to have some of the best OBP guys hitting in the 1 and 2 spots (not Coghlan) followed by the more balanced hitters. Frankly it probably makes little difference as to whether or not Stanton hits 3rd or 4th. It's best to acquire the best hitters they can and go from there. I mean, Polanco probably won't be with the team next season so I don't know why you mention him.

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Even if he OPSed .750, let's say his OBP is still around .350, .360 as a big leaguer. That'd be good to have up at the top, no?

 

 

It depends on who else is on the roster, but if he OBPed .360 then, yes, it'd be fine for the top of the order. However, he's not going to OBP that in a million years, so it's rather pointless to even consider how that might affect the lineup.

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Even if he OPSed .750, let's say his OBP is still around .350, .360 as a big leaguer. That'd be good to have up at the top, no?

 

 

It depends on who else is on the roster, but if he OBPed .360 then, yes, it'd be fine for the top of the order. However, he's not going to OBP that in a million years, so it's rather pointless to even consider how that might affect the lineup.

 

 

Besides the fact that the pitching gets better the higher up you go, why do you think that? His OBP has been consistent throughout, and he's got a 148/152 BB/K rate. Is it the lack of power that makes you say that, as well? [Meaning, he'll get pitched around less]

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Even if he OPSed .750, let's say his OBP is still around .350, .360 as a big leaguer. That'd be good to have up at the top, no?

 

 

It depends on who else is on the roster, but if he OBPed .360 then, yes, it'd be fine for the top of the order. However, he's not going to OBP that in a million years, so it's rather pointless to even consider how that might affect the lineup.

 

 

Besides the fact that the pitching gets better the higher up you go, why do you think that? His OBP has been consistent throughout, and he's got a 148/152 BB/K rate. Is it the lack of power that makes you say that, as well? [Meaning, he'll get pitched around less]

 

 

 

 

The quality of the pitching he's seen is most of it and not something to be pushed aside. He spent most of his season in Jupiter and OBPed around .367.

 

Don't forget that walks aren't the only thing contributing to OBP. He OPSed .710 this season. He's not projected to hit his weight in the major leagues.

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