"We are demanding that. We don't want a white elephant 10 years from now."

 

here are your options for 10 years from now, champ: potential for White Elephant, or guarantee of no baseball team. You don't want the team here, just keep doing what you're doing.

Don King Stadium Anyone

 

 

How about no?

That new site would rock. We shall see, I believe it when I see it

That is a dream site. Soooo much better than Orange Bowl or Miami Arena.

 

Arriola is some clown.

That new site would rock. We shall see, I believe it when I see it

That is a dream site. Soooo much better than Orange Bowl or Miami Arena.

 

Arriola is some clown. agreed, agreed

That new site would rock. We shall see, I believe it when I see it

That is a dream site. Soooo much better than Orange Bowl or Miami Arena.

 

Arriola is some clown. agreed, agreed Plus that is an up and coming area of Downtown.

 

Just like the Miami Arena and Orange Bowl sites. . .

WOW... seeing as how i live on 14th st, i would have no complaints about this location. it's too far to walk there so i'd probably have to take the bus, but it still beats paying for parking.

 

it's even accessible by metromover for those of you who live on the metrorail line.

 

i guess it's almost as good as bicentennial park. IMO, the closer to the water, the better.

:mischief2 Why does nobody believe the estimate? It was made by people who know what they are talking about. At least we learned the city is considering a new prime site (highlighted in bold).

That figure seems low to me also ....

"We are demanding that. We don't want a white elephant 10 years from now."

 

here are your options for 10 years from now, champ: potential for White Elephant, or guarantee of no baseball team. You don't want the team here, just keep doing what you're doing.

Just because the city builds a stadium doesn't mean the team will be spending money on payroll.Of course the team need it's own stadium in order to survie but what makes you think it will be any different from any other new ball park opening.

 

Do I really think that what Loria will ultimately be doing?Not really but people don't forget what happen in other cities.Don't assume that revenue from new stadium will be actually use on payroll or increase payroll.The city of Miami has to be cautious on this deal and so do the fans.Sure they won a World Series but people don't let World Series tittle make you bias toward owner.I believer in Loria but I want to see what he does in the next four years to really convince me(Of course I'm talking about after new stadium is built.).

One thing is for certain.... If we don't get a new stadium, payroll will not increase.

 

The Marlins need the revenue from the boxes, concessions and parking to get the books to balance.

"We are demanding that. We don't want a white elephant 10 years from now."

 

here are your options for 10 years from now, champ: potential for White Elephant, or guarantee of no baseball team.? You don't want the team here, just keep doing what you're doing.

Just because the city builds a stadium doesn't mean the team will be spending money on payroll.Of course the team need it's own stadium in order to survie but what makes you think it will be any different from any other new ball park opening.

 

Do I really think that what Loria will ultimately be doing?Not really but people don't forget what happen in other city.Don't assume that revenue from new stadium will be actually use on payroll or increase payroll.The city of Miami has to be cautious on this deal and so do the fans.Sure they won a World Series but people don't let World Series tittle make you bias toward owner.I believer in Loria but I want to see what he does in the next four years to really convince me(Of course I'm talking about after new stadium is built.). I understand your concern minus, but why then are the Marlins trying to tie players signing on the stadium..ie Mike Lowell and Vlad. That right there should tell you these guys ARE going to spend that money they get for the stadium. I and very few other on this board were the only ones that back Loria then and now. Do you know Loria history in Montreal??? No of course not those down here in the press left it out of his proceed resume. O he's from Montreal he's cheap, he won't spend. Well WRONG on all counts. During the three years as majority owner he keep his arbitration players and sign free agents. Those trade away Urbina and Rondell White were thought to be AT THE TIME fragile. All this ownership has done is prove everybody wrong, and WE STILL HAVE DOUBT??? unbelievable HELLO what other owner in this town would you have?? Wanny? don't get me started on that shar..Mickey? Ok I'll give you him. If this city don't act now, the way it is right now won't change. It might get worst...WHY should we wait haven't we suffer enough? A new stadium hasn't help those in Pittsburgh and Milwaukee? Are those big cities with big revenues? NO how's about Seattle or Phillie? hmmm. Yea we always like to bring up the worst and never the other side. I can't believe this conversation is even being bought up

Anyone else notice how the local media seem to be only broadcasting the negative about a new ballpark? Same with the papers. I don't understand it. I don't remember seeing anything like that when the Panthers and Heat were building theirs....

they drink haterade daily

ed, he's not the only one with doubts.

 

i'm really waiting to see our final payroll before i make an opinion on loria, but if our payroll next season is only $50-55 million, i will not be pleased.

 

i don't think he's up to anything sinister, but there is always that risk that he'll slash payroll after a stadium is built in order to recoup his losses and turn an eventual profit. if it means anything, i personally don't think we'll be screwed...

Just because the city builds a stadium doesn't mean the team will be spending money on payroll.Of course the team need it's own stadium in order to survie but what makes you think it will be any different from any other new ball park opening.

 

Do I really think that what Loria will ultimately be doing?Not really but people don't forget what happen in other city.Don't assume that revenue from new stadium will be actually use on payroll or increase payroll.The city of Miami has to be cautious on this deal and so do the fans.Sure they won a World Series but people don't let World Series tittle make you bias toward owner.I believer in Loria but I want to see what he does in the next four years to really convince me(Of course I'm talking about after new stadium is built.).

 

I'm not saying that giving the Marlins a new stadium will guarantee a higher payroll or on-the-field success. But if these guys want to take the hard line on this stadium, they'd better understand that the repercussion will be that this team is gone. We've seen what Loria is capable of when his town won't help him make his team profitable. His last years in Montreal were atrocious - they hated him, and he hated them right back, and all because he knew Olympic Stadium was an impossible place to field a profitable baseball team, but the city wouldn't do anything to help him out (sound familiar?). I think his time here in Miami has shown that he's not an evil person, however. He seems to legitimately want to field a winning team. The decision to get Pudge, not trade Lowell, trade for Urbina - the buck stopped with him on those decisions. But I don't think he's gonna sit like a schmuck if Miami doesn't give him a stadium this time around. Because really, if it doesn't happen now - with everything that's happened over the past year, and all the good-faith signings we've seen - it's never gonna happen.

ed, he's not the only one with doubts.

 

i'm really waiting to see our final payroll before i make an opinion on loria, but if our payroll next season is only $50-55 million, i will not be pleased.

 

i don't think he's up to anything sinister, but there is always that risk that he'll slash payroll after a stadium is built in order to recoup his losses and turn an eventual profit. if it means anything, i personally don't think we'll be screwed...

Of course...of course BUT the other side is, have we seen season-tickets go up from the 3,000 or so they were last season? I haven't seen a number, remember alot of the team's payroll is base on seasontix. It can't be base on the parking, stadium foods/drinks, or even skyboxes...can it?? O that's right Wayne owns all that... Hey I'm sorry about being smarta$$ but I sick of answering questions like this...the numbers don't lie(people that attend the games) Why would he cut back? regain loses? maybe...don't you the think the PR hit would be greater? Let say this thing goes through and Cabrera is up to get paid at the time they open the stadium, do you think the public we stand for this guy being traded or not being signed? This town only follows a winner and a winner is what's going to pay for those luxury sky boxes. Do you think a smart businessman would pissoff his customers? I believe Loria is a both a smart business and winner. Plus he loves these sport too much to do what Wayne did.

I believe Loria is a both a smart business and winner

 

Is it really possible to be both in this market long-term?

 

The size of the payroll after the new stadium will not be predicated upon whether or not Loria is a good guy, honest, a winner, etc.... It will be all about money. Miami has already said that they do not believe the Marlins are financially viable enough to stand alone on their 150mil contribution and want the money guaranteed by a 3rd party. You think that isn't going to hang over ownerships' head when they sit down to discuss payroll in their new offices?

 

Besides, a new stadium doesn't guarantee an infusion of much needed cash. There are plenty of cities where a new stadium didn't do diddly - See Kansas City (Kaufman) Detroit (CoPa) Cleveland (The Jake) and MIlwaukee (Miller).

The clubs who moved into all those stadiums you mentioned have increase revenues. It's just that it was not enough to make up the difference of loan payments that went to build the stadium. The lack of a lucrative television deal did not help either. As well as other forces which are related to market size. And that the owners did not put competitive teams to sustain regular fan attendance.

I would really like to know where is that new site they keep talking about next to the OMNI Mall, which btw it is seldom used and practically empty. I work close to that area and, besides Bicentennial Park (which is still the best site), I don't see where else you can build a stadium close to the OMNI mall. To the south, you have the OMNI bus/metromover station, the new Center for the Performing Arts and the afore mentioned Bicentennial Park. To the East, you have the Miami Herald. To the west there are a lot of small businesses. And to the North of that site there are several tall buildings. Unless they sandwiched a stadium between a couple of these buildings I don't see many options. Besides, why wasn't this site discussed when the first stadium plan was devised? It is not like the place was thriving economically speaking...

 

The best site for a stadium is still Bicentennial Park. I see it everyday I take the Metromover to go to work. It is a huge space of land used for... nothing. Besides, it is owned by the city, so the only thing they have to do is either rent it or sell it to the Marlins, who btw said they will respect the park by building a "park within a park". In other words, they don't need to raise taxes at all, just use this stupid piece of land where nobody goes because it has been closed for a century and is a very dangerous place at night. It even has its own Metromover station, which is closed for the same reasons, but that can be used if there is a stadium. A good amount of people, I am sure, would prefer taking the Metro, then the Metromover instead of paying 10 to 15 bucks in parking. And with the proposed extension to the Metrorail it would be even easier for more people to start using the Metro to go to a baseball game.

 

The only thing I see as a reason for this not happening is a bunch of corrupted politicans (and I love redundancy...) who are trying to introduce a tax measure to see how much money they can pocket for themselves. Welcome to the Banana Republic of Miami, where nothing gets done when politicians are allowed to speak and think... You can kiss godbye yet another baseball stadium plan for the Marlins... :banghead :banghead :banghead

"We are demanding that. We don't want a white elephant 10 years from now."

 

here are your options for 10 years from now, champ: potential for White Elephant, or guarantee of no baseball team.? You don't want the team here, just keep doing what you're doing.

Just because the city builds a stadium doesn't mean the team will be spending money on payroll.Of course the team need it's own stadium in order to survie but what makes you think it will be any different from any other new ball park opening.

 

Do I really think that what Loria will ultimately be doing?Not really but people don't forget what happen in other cities.Don't assume that revenue from new stadium will be actually use on payroll or increase payroll.The city of Miami has to be cautious on this deal and so do the fans.Sure they won a World Series but people don't let World Series tittle make you bias toward owner.I believer in Loria but I want to see what he does in the next four years to really convince me(Of course I'm talking about after new stadium is built.). I understand your positiom, but we and the city should start seeing this team as OUR team. Ownership may/will change at some point in time, we may get a bad owner or a good owner who knows the future.

 

The stadium is a big step to guarantee that baseball will stay here in South Florida. For me that's the number one priority, no matter is they would put a good product, spent money on the team or whatever. For me a winning team is important, but not the top priority. Step 1 is to keep this team here, and a new Stadium is the answer.

I believe Loria is a both a smart business and winner

 

Is it really possible to be both in this market long-term?

 

The size of the payroll after the new stadium will not be predicated upon whether or not Loria is a good guy, honest, a winner, etc.... It will be all about money. Miami has already said that they do not believe the Marlins are financially viable enough to stand alone on their 150mil contribution and want the money guaranteed by a 3rd party. You think that isn't going to hang over ownerships' head when they sit down to discuss payroll in their new offices?

 

Besides, a new stadium doesn't guarantee an infusion of much needed cash. There are plenty of cities where a new stadium didn't do diddly - See Kansas City (Kaufman) Detroit (CoPa) Cleveland (The Jake) and MIlwaukee (Miller). Kaufman is almost 30 years old. Check your info. The reasons stadiums in those cities didn't help is because they are too small and don't have the corporate partners to do it with. In Miami you already have an existing base that can be attracted to the stadium.

My bad on Kaufmann..... but it rings true for the rest of them...

 

As for being "too small and not having the corporate partners to do it with"... What????

 

Is Miller Brewing not a large enough corporate partner? Or how about Comerica Bank in Detroit -

 

And what exactly is an "existing base" here in Miami?? There isn't an existing base in the other cities????

 

The only point I'm trying to make is that the short-lived era of guranteed increases in payroll expensitures via new stadiums is no longer a guarantee at all.

My bad on Kaufmann..... but it rings true for the rest of them...

 

As for being "too small and not having the corporate partners to do it with"... What????

 

Is Miller Brewing not a large enough corporate partner? Or how about Comerica Bank in Detroit -

 

And what exactly is an "existing base" here in Miami?? There isn't an existing base in the other cities????

 

The only point I'm trying to make is that the short-lived era of guranteed increases in payroll expensitures via new stadiums is no longer a guarantee at all.

You got love these guy, he appears only on cloudy days, to "TRY" and rain on our parade. Mr. Negative aka Brain Fillet, your right about guranteed increases in payroll expensitures via new stadiums is no longer a guarantee at all. It's true if you see only team that own there own TV deal are the ones with bottomless pits of money. Does that mean not have a new stadium doesn't help? Of course not...You need revenue from stadium deals, it help you KEEP your own players. Now of course your not going to go out there and do what Boston, NY, and Chicago are doing. Those teams are playing in there own world, but does that mean we can't compete? again of course not....It also helps the public go to game more often knowing there's a roof on that thing...NO RAIN OUTS! Hey we know what will happen if the Marlins don't secure a ballpark. It not a threat but a FACT they won't be around.

Edcanes here are the teams 2003 TV partners and rightsholders:

 

NL East

-Florida Marlins: Fox Sports Net Florida, WPXM/WPXP (FSN sells games to them)

-Atlanta Braves: TBS, Turner South, Fox Sports Net South

-New York Mets: MSG, Fox Sports Net New York, WPIX (FSN sells games to them)

-Philadelphia Phillies: Comcast Sports Net Philadelphia (team owns part), WPSG (team shares revenue with station)

-Montreal Expos: RDS

 

NL Central

-Chicago Cubs: WGN (owns team), Fox Sports Net Chicago (to be replaced in 2005 season with Comcast Sportsnet Chicago)

-St. Louis Cardinals: Fox Sports Net Midwest, KPLR (Cards buy time and sell ads)

-Houston Astros: Fox Sports Net Houston (Astros want to join Rockets in new network for 2005), KNWS (FSN sells games to them)

-Cincinatti Reds: Fox Sports Net Ohio

-Milwaukee Brewers: Fox Sports Net North, WCGV (team buys time, sells ads), WISN (team buys time, sells ads)

-Pittsburgh Pirates: Fox Sports Net Pittsburgh

 

NL West

-Arizona Diamondbacks: Fox Sports Net Arizona, KTVK (teams buys time, sells ads)

-Colorado Rockies: Fox Sports Net Rocky Mountain, KTVD (FSN buys time, sells ads)

-Los Angeles Dodgers: Fox Sports Net West 2 (team owned by Fox), KCOP (teams and KCOP owned by Fox)

-San Diego Padres: Cox Channel 4 San Diego (cable only channel owned by Cox and Padres), KUSI (Cox/Pads buy time and sell ads)

-San Francisco Giants: KTVU (owns part of team), Fox Sports Net Bay Area

 

AL East

-Baltimore Orioles: O's TV (owned by team, buys time on WJZ), Comcast Sportsnet Mid-Atlantic

-Boston Red Sox: NESN (BoSox own 80%), WBZ/WSBK (time share agreement)

-New York Yankees: YES Network (owned by team), WCBS (games sold to CBS)

-Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Fox Sports Net Florida (team owns 15% of channel), WXPX (team buys time, sells ads)

-Toronto Blue Jays: TSN, Rogers Sportsnet (team owned by Rogers Cable)

 

AL Central

-Detroit Tigers: Fox Sports Net Detroit, WKBD

-Chicago White Sox: Fox Sports Net Chicago (to be replaced in 2005 by Comcast), WGN

-Cleveland Indians: Fox Sports Net Ohio

-Kansas City Royals: RSTN (owned by team), KMCI (team buys time, sells ads)

-Minnesota Twins: Fox Sports Net North (replaced by Twins Victory Sports Net in 2004), KSTC (games sold to KSTC)

 

AL West

-Anaheim Angels: Fox Sports Net West, KCAL, Telemundo LA

-Oakland A's: Fox Sports Net Bay Area, Action 36 (owned by KTVU)

-Seattle Mariners: Fox Sports Net Northwest, KSTW

-Texas Rangers: Fox Sports Net Southwest, KDFW (Fox owned), kdfi (fox owned)

The Marlins are happy with the $10 million they get from FSN Florida every year because it is guaranteed until 2011.

The Marlins free tv is up again this year, FNS will produce the games, but anyone from PAX35, UPN33/CBS4, WB 39 or WSVN 7 may carry the 55 free tv game sin 2004. (this is where the money could increase)

The Marlins have $2-3 million in radio rights from WQAM in 2004, new deal to be signed for 2005 with anyone form WQAM, WIOD/WRXY, or if team gets creative, WAXY (teams owns rights and runs it's own raido network buying time on flagship and selling ads)

My bad on Kaufmann..... but it rings true for the rest of them...

 

As for being "too small and not having the corporate partners to do it with"... What????

 

Is Miller Brewing not a large enough corporate partner? Or how about Comerica Bank in Detroit -

 

And what exactly is an "existing base" here in Miami?? There isn't an existing base in the other cities????

 

The only point I'm trying to make is that the short-lived era of guranteed increases in payroll expensitures via new stadiums is no longer a guarantee at all.

 

i see where you're going with this, and it's a fair argument. for every new stadium that saved a franchise these days (Baltimore, Cleveland), there's one that was a complete waste of everyone's money (Milwaukee, Detroit).

 

The only defense I can come up with is that those other cities wanted new stadiums for reasons that would only take effect if their team was popular, in other words, luxury boxes. If a team sucks and doesn't draw, then all the luxury boxes in the world won't do them any good.

 

In Miami, they don't want a new stadium b/c they want more luxury boxes. They need a new stadium b/c thanks H. Wayne Huizinga and his ridiculous stadium lease, they could sell out every single game and STILL struggle to stay afloat. Granted, in order for a new stadium to be truly successful, people would have to actually come to the games. But unlike most cities, the Miami stadium situation appears to be a unique case where even if attendance does not rise dramatically with the building of a new stadium, revenue will increase dramatically, simply because more of the income from the games will be going to the team itself as opposed to Huizinga's pockets.

 

Of course, whether the team will spend that on more players is another story....at least it will probably allow them to stick around a while longer....