cobaincola

3 years 9 million bucks for Matheny?? I would assume Matheny and his agent were wearing masks and holding guns when this contract was signed and made official..... 634144[/snapback] Durham going to be 34 Matheny going to be 34 Bonds going to be 41 (less in Roid years) Grissom is going to be 38 JT Snow is going to be 37 Vizquel going to be 38 Wow... The Giants are going to suck for a very long time in a couple of years

Just from last year alone, that Braves pen was great more so in depth.

To be fair the trade was presented as: Vazquez+10million+Felix Rodriguez for Burnett...

Maybe Beckett's blister ended the season? I thought it was the Expos doubleheader? How about Ramon Castro's bruised toe? Or maybe we can point to the failure to re-sign Pudge and Lee as when the Marlins' season ended. 633605[/snapback] Stop making sense, our season ended because a 36 year-old career minor leaguer gave up a homerun...that bastard! How could he?

Our season ended long before Manzy stepped foot on the mound, Beinfest waited way too long to get serviceable bullpen help.

Oh, and one more thing:? http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...topic=35422&hl= YOU'RE ALL HYPOCRITES!!!!! 633527[/snapback] It doesn't ask who would you want your opening day starter to be o wise one. If you did that I bet a lot of people would have Unit or Rocket, basically not one of the 4 listed there. And AJ was the #2 when he came back last year so it would make sense from him to go from 2 to 1 I don't see how that makes everyone who voted AJ a hypocrite. And not everyone who wants to trade AJ voted in that I bet, and I doubt everyone who voted posted here. Take a chill pill man. 633530[/snapback] Oh wise one, it asked, out of our projected pitchers for 2005, who would start opening day: essentially, the question was loaded to gauge who people were expecting the most out of from 2005. Would this be Josh's first fully healthy year, or would AJ bust out and get those 18-20 wins we know he's capable of. After all, the man who is the opening day starter is regarded as the staff "ace." By having 25 people (more than half) answer that AJ should start opening day, people not only commented on AJ's ability, but also on the belief that he is OUR best pitcher. Not to mention that the Diamondbacks don't want Javier Vazquez for Randy Johnson, they want AJ Burnett; not to mention they put him in the same category as Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Edwin Jackson, and Ben Sheets (all names that the Diamondbacks said were the only way they'd trade RJ). Says something when a third team (who can have it's pick of the litter) picks one player over the other, doesn't it? 633557[/snapback] They DIDN'T want Vazquez because Vazquez would have probably demanded a trade because with guaranteed money he might as well pitch in a pitcher's park and for a winning team. They are both the same age, Vazquez has more good seasons and hasn't had TJ surgery in the past. I think it's very possible that the Fish would counter the deal with Vazquez and 15 million for Burnett rather than Vaz, 10 and FR for Burnett. It has been said that 10 million is the bottom line number, it could be higher.

I just don't know where I stand on this. I loathe being a pawn in the Yankees dealings just to get the Big Unit. But I suppose swapping AJ for Vazquez, 10+ million, and some prospects/players isn't the worst thing ever. I don't think it would be well received locally, or by the media in general, save those who point to "payroll flexibility". AJ just has Cy Young ceiling in my opinion though, losing him would be really disappointing. I think Javy's a good pitcher but last season does not sit well with me. 633331[/snapback] The Fish really have all the leverage here. The Yanks desperately want Burnett, since the D'Backs don't want Javy. Although with Arizona's newest signings Vazquez might not mind being in Arizona. Vazquez had three good seasons in Montreal, is the same age as Burnett, hasn't had TJ surgery, and he could come cheap, and he'd be guaranteed to play for us for 3 years. Burnett has made it known that he'd love to play for a place like NY, Boston or LA, he would leave Miami price-equal to go almost anywhere else. We would have to outbid alot of higher-market teams to retain his services for the future. Honestly, I can see why people wouldn't want to part with AJ because they are fans of his, but why is there more homerism for AJ than players like Lowell, Castillo, and Pierre just boggles my mind (not implying you are, just saying from alot of the responses).

This is what i hate. How could the Marlins even Consider touching Burnett. Beckett or Burnett should stay in this organization for a long time. They both have great talent. There will be no Rotation without them two. 633018[/snapback] If only you didn't wear the AJ glasses, you'd see. There is life beyond Burnett, think of the team. I wouldn't like it - but I could adjust to it. BTW: It's supposely 4 years - 39 million for Pavy. 633070[/snapback] Vazquez will be the same. There will be no improvement. 633288[/snapback] He'd probably come cheaper and he'd come guaranteed to pitch 3 seasons for us.

I think the Yanks will throw in another 5 million if we instead choose to pass on Felix, but I really doubt that they would trade Navarro and give up 5 million dollars (Enc) for Stokes... And the freed up money won't help us immensely, we can't offer multi-year deals to anybody that matters offensively and forking over alot for Perez and Clement is overkill when our offense isn't all that great. 633273[/snapback] Why can't you offer anyone a multi-year deal? With Burnett off the team and LoDuca likely to re-sign for 2 years (ugh), there's really no one else to spend that Hampton's millions nexy year. I'm okay with a cheap Bump/Howard/Wayne/Valdez/Darren Oliver-type 5th starter, I'm sure others aren't. I wasn't completly convinced when considering Beckett and Burnett's health, but with one out of the way and Leiter there to train with Beckett and help Willis those 150 innings aren't quite as important as upgrading the offense. 633281[/snapback] Vazquez is going to make 34 million the next three years, even if the Yanks gave us 15 million, that's still 19 million for 3 years, a little over 6 a season not (3.5 - 5) unless you are working under a different hypothetical. We'd come out 2 million on top for next season about if we went along with the deal. But then when you consider we already have Vazuez tied down for the next two seasons, I don't see why you'd be so optimistic we'd go after a big name guy with a multi-year deal. I'd like the deal because Vazquez at 6 - 6.5 a year would be a steal, and we'd be assured that we had a very capable front of the line starter for a decent period of time. Burnett however is a different story. It'd almost seem like we'd have to outbid everyone else to get his services back, I'm sure he'd bolt for NY, Boston, or LA even if the Fish matched the offer. If we sign Dellucci for 2 - 2.5 a season for two years or so, our payroll would be the same. We have Vazquez and Dellucci as oppose to Burnett and Encarnacion. Sure we'd have Vazquez at a cheap price for two more years while Burnett would probably fetch a bit more while having proved less but in no way does Encarnacion need to be included to make that happen. I'm not an Enc fan, but trading him without trading LoDuca doesn't make much difference. It shouldn't make or break this deal. My stance is, yes on the trade and no it shouldn't have be tied to Encarnacion. The money you'll save in the trade won't nearly be enough to get a legit power hitter that will help this team immensely especially because it looks like LoDuca is here for good.

I don't want F-Rod, we've addressed the bullpen and I think it'll be fine as it is. We've already spent too much money on it. 633197[/snapback] Exactly. If the team is going to improve the offense, WHICH IT HAS TOO for us to win, we need Enc's contract and roster spot off the books. Dellucci and Gibbons don't want to come here to compete for a starting job. No one better than Dellucci (who is only slightly-better than Enc anyway) will come here for what's been offered. These are the freaking Yankees, tell them to eat Enc's contract or they can't have Burnett. If that doesn't work, throw in an overrated prospect like Stokes or Miller. Or have them eat the bulk of another offensive player (Giambi?) to send here. 633243[/snapback] So, how exactly does trading Encarnacion and freeing up his whopping $4 million help the offense? As you said, no one we can get at that salary will be better than Encarnacion. 633247[/snapback] Four plus four equals eight, does it not? 633251[/snapback] Yeah, which is what we're going to be on the hook for to Javy. Or, if you want to say that we're just going to give him the money we offered Pavano, we have to pay Odalis somehow, the most we're going to be left with after we reshape the rotation is $4 million. 633253[/snapback] Burnett (4), Encarnacion (4.5) for Vazquez (3.5-5). OK, so you were right. Until you add the current offer to Dellucci (3-4). Making a total of $7-9 to spend elsewhere. Who knows if these numbers are right? After spending over $10 million on Leiter, Jones and Six Fingers I don't know where the Marlins stand payroll-wise. But I don't think they made that offer to Dellucci two weeks ago knowing that the Yankees would come calling after Wright failed his physical, Arizona making an effort to keep Randy, Boston signing Wells and Burnett acted like an ass (OK, maybe that last one). 633271[/snapback] I think the Yanks will throw in another 5 million if we instead choose to pass on Felix, but I really doubt that they would trade Navarro and give up 5 million dollars (Enc) for Stokes... And the freed up money won't help us immensely, we can't offer multi-year deals to anybody that matters offensively and forking over alot for Perez and Clement is overkill when our offense isn't all that great.

At this point trading Encarnacion shouldn't be a big priority, it's obvious we aren't going to add a bat that matters anyhow. It'd be nice to get rid of his contract but then again it is just for this year and he is a good defensive prescence when he tries. His OBP is horrible, but it's over-rated...the team needs more power. If Beinfest was gunning for Delgado, Drew, Ordonez then it'd make sense to push Encarnacion out the door, but he isn't whether or not we trade him. Willingham/Aguila are no guarantees and if Encarnacion can hit 20 homers and play great D then his value would be close to his contract. It looks like Dellucci is over-valued right now with so many teams having an interest in him. He was attractive at first because he seemed like a player that could potentially be a solid starter for a team but with little name recognition someone that could be had cheap. Not anymore. Regardless of what anyone says, there is noone that would come at 4 million or less that would be a much better option offensively... Bringing in Tino would entail a likely bidding war with the Yanks, Cabs in right, and adding a 37 year old to the team...no guarantees

All you guys saying trade AJ instead of Beckett, you simply don't understand.? AJ is a free agent after this season and once he becomes a free agent, he is as good as gone regardless of how much money we throw in his face.? He has made it very clear over the past year that he does not want to be a Marlin and he'll get his wish when he becomes a free agent after 2005, so we might as well trade him now and get something in return rather than allow him to leave and we get absolutely nothing. 633077[/snapback] Maybe so, but you don't sell him to the Yankees because of his impending free agency. Vazquez had a bad year last season, and is unbelievably overpaid. You play the "trade Burnett" card just like Billy Beane is doing with Hudson. Pitching is at a premium, if you put a 27 year old ace making only 3.5 million on the market you're going to start a bidding war.... If Beinfest trades Burnett for Vazquez, he's a fool...i'm not opposed to dealing Burnett, but we better get full value for him -- and after the season Vazquez had last year and his current contract status, he sure as hell isn't near Burnett's value. 633088[/snapback] We'd be paying 8 million for Vazquez a season, and money aside he is better than Burnett. We'd have a guaranteed number 1 or number 2 for 3 years instead of risking the chance (high at that) that Burnett leaves next season. If Milton, Ortiz, Leiber are getting these contracts we won't be able to get anyone in next year's FA not even Burnett for less than what Vazquez will make. Plus AJ with is a timebomb. The Yanks want to throw in Felix Rodriguez too? Maybe milk them for more money as oppose to bringing in Felix. Our bullpen far from great is solid, if Beinfest can lower Vazquez's 5 - 6 million by not taking Felix then we'd be stupid not to make the deal, even know it's stupid to not take it.

I'm sorry but you people overvalue AJ AJ has had TJ surgery, is the same age as Javy, and only has had one good year and that was pre-TJ surgery. Vasquez had three great seasons consecutively in Montreal, has great stuff, is the same age as AJ and if the Yankees could eat up a good chunk of his contract we could get a big steal. The kid didn't adjust well to the pressure cooker in NY coming from Montreal, but his raw ability is there. Considering AJ doesn't have all that much loyalty to this place, considering what they've done for him,...I'd trade him for Vasquez in a heartbeat.

Wow...incredible move by the Braves They replace Wright and Ortiz who will make a combined 15 million + each season for the next few years... With Kolb. He made a whole 1.5 million last season, I doubt his salary for next season would eclipse that much. Their rotation is going to welcome back Ramirez and now Smoltz and Kolb will be able to dominate in the pen as Smoltz did... That is some smart economic baseball...the Fish should take some lessons.

Great move by the Braves. They're replaced Wright with Smoltz and now Smoltz's closer role is filled with Kolb. Brilliant move, they save millions by replacing Wright with Kolb and if Smoltz can cut it as a starter they more than likely have a guy that will replace his stats from last season as well. Their bullpen will still probably be one of the best in the league, and if Ramirez can come back strong their rotation should be pretty good. They might surprise yet again.

Probably for a bit longer until the team changes, rooting for whatever players survive the move to Las Vegas, after that I'd probably start watching basketball...wouldn't look forward to that at all.

Question, who exactly is gonna be pitching for the Braves next season? No Ortiz, Millwood or Wright so who do they have? Logan Kensing? 632288[/snapback] Ramirez was out last season, and they are thinking of moving Smoltz to the rotation. With the subtraction of Smoltz and AA from the pen and some of the career years of their bullpen...that bullpen won't drop off the face of the earth, but it won't be nearly as good as it was last year, it was head and shoulders better than that of anyone in the league. They'll have Byrd, Thomson and Hampton to fill out the other spots. Ramirez missed the entire season with god know's what, he didn't have great stuff before he got injured who knows how it is know. They could have a decent rotation, and with their luck and pitching coach they probably will, but I wouldn't bank on it. Smoltz has been a starter, but is he ready to make the transition back there again after this long lay-off? How's Ramirez going to do? Is Thomson going to match his career best from last season? Byrd has been nothing more than serviceable number 4 or 5 guy...

That's good news, any solid pitcher would go for atleast 5 million, I'd hope Beinfest would atleast look into trading away Enc and his contract even if that meant packaging in a B or C prospect and use the combined resources to sign a great hitter and place Valdez or someone that would come that cheap in the number 5 hole.

Good news

Self-loathing is pathetic, the guy needs attention, needs a story to sell and this will grab more eyes than woud any other type of reaction to the Las Vegas possibility. He's no different than any other sportswriter out there..

That doesnt make it right....There's a reason that people don't resign these players....BECAUSE THEY SUCK. Todd Jones has been on 800 teams for a reason....because he's not good....why can't we sign someone worthy? I want Bradford or Christiansen...these guys at least have been good at some point in their career. 631455[/snapback] You have no idea what you are talking about. He has a career 4.07 ERA, despite having pitched in Colorado and Boston for a combined two seasons, and Philly last season. He'll do well in PPS. He's about 3 times cheaper than Cormier, oh and Christiansen is 34/35 years old and has a career ERA of 4.20, Bradford is probably getting a mutli-year deal.

The Yankees profit more than any other team in baseball IN SPITE OF THEIR PAYROLL, one of only two teams that generate a profit consistently year in and year out the other being the Sox and even so their profits dwarf that of the Sox.

The bench is awful and the bullpen is so-so, but have you looked at the NL East lately? Sad thing is, right now, this team would probably be the favorite for the division. The Phillies rotation is pretty much set at: Lieber, Wolf, Padilla, Lidle, Myers...that's awful, not an ace in the entire bunch, plus, they play in a bam-box, so they're going to have to score 5 runs a night to even think about winning. The Braves will start 2005 without their most productive bat (Drew) or their top-two pitchers from this year (Ortiz, Wright), and they'll likely do a Kevin Brown for Andruw Jones trade (if you believe the rumors). I'm still at a loss to understand exactly how this team won the division this year. The Nationals have the foundation for a good team, but still far too many offensive holes...not to mention their pitching is underwhelming at best. And the Mets...well, they're the Mets. They'll get Sexon (whose shoulder will give out by June) and over-pay for Pedro, but even with Pedro, they'd still have an overpriced fragile rotation (Zambrano, Pedro, Benson). I'm usually one of the most pessimistic posters, but barring Tim Hudson coming to a NL East team (other than the Marlins) I really like our chances. Are we the run away favorites? No, but we're certainly going into this coming season in the right direction. Even if we make no other moves and just keep Valdez, I'd say we had a better offseason than I was expecting. 630707[/snapback] With Wright, Ortiz, and Drew leaving you can rest assure that the Braves aren't going to be the team to beat next season but they'll still be competitive. They just don't want to spend the money now. I don't think Drew gets the credit he deserves, he had an over 1.000 OPS last season, losing him is going to hurt big time. If Chipper rebounds, and Giles remains healthy they'll have a solid but nothing more than that offense. They are losing two of their 3 best starting pitchers. Thomson had an incredible season for them last year, counting on more of the same is being kinda of optimistic. I think the Braves think they can replace Wright and Ortiz with Smoltz and Ramirez (since he missed almost all of last season) and not miss a beat. Also very optimistic. Could Smoltz make the transition back? What exactly was wrong with Ramirez? Is he ok now? He didn't exactly have great stuff before he went down...the bullpen is going to have a big hole in AA and a bigger one in Smoltz. The reason they did so well last season was in part because they had the best bullpen in the league. Some of these guys are no names though like Gryboski, and some are iffy like Cruz who excelled last season but has been notorious for being very inconsistent. If they win the division again, I'd have to regard them as the best organization of the year without considering anyone else. So many pieces that need to fit just right, it's possible but incredibly unlikely...but they weren't suppose to compete this year either. I have to disagree on the Phillies though, their rotation is above average. Padillla, Wolf, Lieber are all above average. Padilla and Wolf both missed significant time last season, but Padilla is only 26 and the two seasons before last he was definitely Ace material even despite his age. Wolf has great stuff and has shown that he can be dominant but the last two seasons he was about average, he's only 27 though. He's a solid number 2 or number 3 guy. Leiber I think is above average as well, based on last year's performance he should have a good year this year. Myers still hasn't tapped into his potential and Lidle is a good guy to have as your 4th or 5th. Remember they did lose Millwood and Milton, but both svcked royally last year. Their rotation really disappointed last year, but to expect more of the same is a bit optimistic in my eyes. Their bullpen if they resign Cormier will probably be the best in the NL East even without him they might still have the best. Their offense is probably the best in the NL East next season as well. I still think they are the team to beat because their starting pitching just has to do better than they did last season...they can't do any worse with all that potential. With the expected roster and another added bullpen arm, I expect the Fish to win about 86 games, it might be a little more if some players like Enc and LoDuca do considerably better than expected and whoever the 5th starter is. I am seeing the division winner winning 90 - 92 games next season. Atleast we should be in competition to the end. Oh yeah a blurb on the Mets:...... (every injury-riddled player on their team is going to have to remain healthy....there is just no way: Benson, Floyd, Piazza, Reyes, Cameron, or even Glavine are all going to stay healthy.) The Nationals have a solid team, that might compete for third but they're still not all that close to challenging.

I don't know how much I would read into this. All the teams are going out west for the Winter Meetings, and i'm sure that the Marlins are not the only team meeting with Las Vegas. Most likely this was a negotiating ploy to move things alog with Miami. 630671[/snapback] That's how I'm reading it...also I'm sure if there was just a 2 percent chance this stadium proposal will fold it would still be worth it on Loria's side to put himself in a situation where he can rebound successfully from that. I wouldn't read too much into. Obviously, Miami is where Loria wants the Fish, it would take alot for a fall out, you can't blame Loria for being shrewd enough to make sure he can recover even if the probability of stadium not working is near zero.

i guess the only question here is ... why? wasnt this organization crying poverty about 3 weeks ago? see this would just be one more example of this organization not having a clue about what they want. 630700[/snapback] Maybe they want to compete with the Mets as the worst run organization in baseball... I still have to ask 'why' because it's just way too lofty a goal, although admirable...