marlins161

Have you heard of Jim Mecir, Antonio Alfonseca, Guillermo Mota, Todd Jones and John Riedling before? I have. They came to the Marlins with good backgrounds. That's why they were signed to large guaranteed major league contracts, unlike some of the spring training invites you named. There was talent this year. Unlike any in the past. And the same results came. Why? If the past reports of Jack's style of handling the bullpen suggest anything, it's that these pitchers faced stress that they rarely encountered before. Did you not see all that action happening in the bullpen from your seat or couch? Did you not pay attention when Dave & Roxy pointed it out? Have you blocked out all the scolding that has gone on through the three years? Jack treated them like disposable commodities. Large guaranteed contracts? Alfonseca $316K plus incentives. Came as damaged goods. Management couldn't see that. The guy failed a physical and broke down in the spring. Jones 1.1 M, enjoyed a great season backed by Jack's confidence in him. You may recall Jack kept him as closer and didn't give the job back to Mota because of injury. Riedling 750K. Released by the Reds, a team in dire need of relief help before being a free agent to sign with the Marlins. Mecir 1.1M was leaning retirement but gave it one more shot. Mota was arbitration and made market value. So where do you get off saying this pen was filled with large contract guys? You think 1.1M is Steinbrenneresque? Mecir was a 1 inning guy who wasn't abused. Mota was the mystery guy. Not a bright guy. Pouted when asked to be used in setup. Sorry to burst your bubble. Jack wasn't the problem with the pen. The pitchers themselves were. Management kept giving Jack slugs like Travis Smith, Crowell. Messenger. Resop. Maybe someday Messenger and Resop will be good. They aren't there yet. You noted it is well documented that 03 won in spite of a pen. I proved you were wrong. Jack brilliantly used the pen in 03. Only after Fox and Urbina arrived.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good. What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters. It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it. I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given. Furthermore, to absolutely blow out of the water your claim that it's been established the 03 team won in spite of the bullpen, chew on this fact. There is no wild card title. There is no playoff without the bullpen. That team won because it added Urbina and Fox giving three solid pitchers on the back end. You saying otherwise means nothing to me.

Agreed. Terrific site. Great info.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good. What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters. It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it. I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

Now we are bashing our best players? Amazing. Lo Duca bashing now is popular. Three players who agreed to long term contracts are on the blocks and some of you feel we should sign Molina. The writing is on the wall people. No big contracts are being offered to quality players. If any free agents of quality sign here it will be one of those 1 yr contracts with someone having something to prove that other teams backed off from. The direction clearly isn't winning in 2006. With that in mind, do the firesale and hope for the best in return. No matter how you slice it the future isn't looking real bright.

The insistence that Jack somehow blew out the pen is so ridiculous. Ever think that maybe the relievers themselves didn't get the job done? The first month everyone was noting how the starters were going deep, getting complete games. Mota didn't get his first save about the 20th game. By May 1 Mota was on the DL, so that is Jack's fault? Alfonseca was throwing 85 in the spring and blew up in late April. That's Jack's fault? Perisho couldn't get any situational lefty out. That was Jack's fault? Riedling was ineffective. Again, Jack? Come on. Be stand up about some things. Players are accountable for their performances. If they are overworked, they can ask for days off. The point I do agree with is Wiley will not return now that it is out in the open. If Girardi wants Key, he will now, unless Key turns it down.

Marlins161, I'm starting to think you're a troll... :ban No I am a season ticket holder not happy with what the club is doing. I'm soon going to be an ex season ticket holder if some direction isn't given.

Sounds the the PR team will be loaded with former Marlins. Pudge. Delgado. Lowell

This is just another example of the media unjustly ripping the Marlins.

yet another example of how this team is headed in the wrong direction. time for the FO to tell season ticket holders what is going on.

Yes the money is guaranteed in the contract. Why would he sign it here and risk being traded to a place he doesn't like rather than ride it out and be a free agent? Also if the team is not committed to winning, and clearly it is looking to get younger, why sign long term with a club that is rebuilding? No way Willis looks to sign long term with a FO so not loyal to its players

The club never won before Jack arrived and we will see if they can win now that he is gone I do recall a certain 1997 trophy. He wasn't born yet. Even if the Marlins trade Delgado...why the f*** would they trade him to a divison-rival in the Mets? I can't see that happening. The reference to the club not winning before Jack was regarding the Loria regime. Whether it was Montreal or Florida, this FO never won before Jack arrived. They won largely because of Jack. Now we will see if they can win without Jack. My prediction is they won't win more than 75 games next year.

And yet here is Carpenter who had more strikeouts, a better whip, better baa.. less hits allowed in 5 more innings, less walks. What everyone wants to say is Carp had a bad September and he did but you also have to remember he had a great great year up til then. Dontrelle had a better ERA and more wins, the most important stats. Strikeouts? Who cares. Why do you have to be a strikeout pitcher to win it? Tell that to Greg Maddux. WHIP and BAA? Neat, Dontrelle had a better ERA. "A great year up til than"?? LOL! So you want to play that game? Take away Dontrelle's 3 straight starts in July and he has an ERA of 1.85 on the year!! So don't even try playing that game. Starts giving up 0 ER: DTrain 10, Carp 7 Starts giving up 1 ER: DTrain 8, Carp 7 Starts giving up 2 ER: DTrain 6, Carp 5 Starts giving up 3 ER: DTrain 4, Carp 8 Starts giving up 4+: DTrain 6, Carp 6 Dontrelle's 3 bad starts in July mattered...Carpenter's 3 bad starts in September didn't...they were basically exhibition games Carp deserved it. Congrats on the positive side, less money to shell out for Dontrelle. And I want the D-Train on this team for a long time if the Marlins FO is smart, they'll take the Billy Beane approach and sign him to a long term deal now, before he's eligible for arbitration...sign him to a 5 year deal, and not only are you guaranteed to have him for two extra years, you'll be paying him less than you would if you waited (except for the first year) Why would Willis sign long term when he knows his contract will mean nothing. The way the FO has treated Delgado will have no one looking to sign a contract more than one year.

I want Spike to tell me we're not sellers this offseason after all these articles.... It's just your usage of the word "sellers"...you consider losing free agents that we are better off not keeping(Encarnacion, Burnett), makes us sellers...when it doesn't. Getting Rid of Delgado for no reason makes us Sellers!!!!!! Umm Delgado has not been dealt. Go back to reading about your precious Phillies, we all know your the biggest Phillie homer on this board. This Marlins are sellers. Shopping Delgado and Lowell is proof positive.