marlins161

Have you heard of Jim Mecir, Antonio Alfonseca, Guillermo Mota, Todd Jones and John Riedling before? I have. They came to the Marlins with good backgrounds. That's why they were signed to large guaranteed major league contracts, unlike some of the spring training invites you named. There was talent this year. Unlike any in the past. And the same results came. Why? If the past reports of Jack's style of handling the bullpen suggest anything, it's that these pitchers faced stress that they rarely encountered before. Did you not see all that action happening in the bullpen from your seat or couch? Did you not pay attention when Dave & Roxy pointed it out? Have you blocked out all the scolding that has gone on through the three years? Jack treated them like disposable commodities. Large guaranteed contracts? Alfonseca $316K plus incentives. Came as damaged goods. Management couldn't see that. The guy failed a physical and broke down in the spring. Jones 1.1 M, enjoyed a great season backed by Jack's confidence in him. You may recall Jack kept him as closer and didn't give the job back to Mota because of injury. Riedling 750K. Released by the Reds, a team in dire need of relief help before being a free agent to sign with the Marlins. Mecir 1.1M was leaning retirement but gave it one more shot. Mota was arbitration and made market value. So where do you get off saying this pen was filled with large contract guys? You think 1.1M is Steinbrenneresque? Mecir was a 1 inning guy who wasn't abused. Mota was the mystery guy. Not a bright guy. Pouted when asked to be used in setup. Sorry to burst your bubble. Jack wasn't the problem with the pen. The pitchers themselves were. Management kept giving Jack slugs like Travis Smith, Crowell. Messenger. Resop. Maybe someday Messenger and Resop will be good. They aren't there yet. You noted it is well documented that 03 won in spite of a pen. I proved you were wrong. Jack brilliantly used the pen in 03. Only after Fox and Urbina arrived.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good. What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters. It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it. I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given. Furthermore, to absolutely blow out of the water your claim that it's been established the 03 team won in spite of the bullpen, chew on this fact. There is no wild card title. There is no playoff without the bullpen. That team won because it added Urbina and Fox giving three solid pitchers on the back end. You saying otherwise means nothing to me.

Agreed. Terrific site. Great info.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good. What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters. It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it. I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given.

Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation. That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

Now we are bashing our best players? Amazing. Lo Duca bashing now is popular. Three players who agreed to long term contracts are on the blocks and some of you feel we should sign Molina. The writing is on the wall people. No big contracts are being offered to quality players. If any free agents of quality sign here it will be one of those 1 yr contracts with someone having something to prove that other teams backed off from. The direction clearly isn't winning in 2006. With that in mind, do the firesale and hope for the best in return. No matter how you slice it the future isn't looking real bright.

The insistence that Jack somehow blew out the pen is so ridiculous. Ever think that maybe the relievers themselves didn't get the job done? The first month everyone was noting how the starters were going deep, getting complete games. Mota didn't get his first save about the 20th game. By May 1 Mota was on the DL, so that is Jack's fault? Alfonseca was throwing 85 in the spring and blew up in late April. That's Jack's fault? Perisho couldn't get any situational lefty out. That was Jack's fault? Riedling was ineffective. Again, Jack? Come on. Be stand up about some things. Players are accountable for their performances. If they are overworked, they can ask for days off. The point I do agree with is Wiley will not return now that it is out in the open. If Girardi wants Key, he will now, unless Key turns it down.

Marlins161, I'm starting to think you're a troll... :ban No I am a season ticket holder not happy with what the club is doing. I'm soon going to be an ex season ticket holder if some direction isn't given.

Sounds the the PR team will be loaded with former Marlins. Pudge. Delgado. Lowell

This is just another example of the media unjustly ripping the Marlins.

yet another example of how this team is headed in the wrong direction. time for the FO to tell season ticket holders what is going on.

Yes the money is guaranteed in the contract. Why would he sign it here and risk being traded to a place he doesn't like rather than ride it out and be a free agent? Also if the team is not committed to winning, and clearly it is looking to get younger, why sign long term with a club that is rebuilding? No way Willis looks to sign long term with a FO so not loyal to its players

The club never won before Jack arrived and we will see if they can win now that he is gone I do recall a certain 1997 trophy. He wasn't born yet. Even if the Marlins trade Delgado...why the f*** would they trade him to a divison-rival in the Mets? I can't see that happening. The reference to the club not winning before Jack was regarding the Loria regime. Whether it was Montreal or Florida, this FO never won before Jack arrived. They won largely because of Jack. Now we will see if they can win without Jack. My prediction is they won't win more than 75 games next year.

And yet here is Carpenter who had more strikeouts, a better whip, better baa.. less hits allowed in 5 more innings, less walks. What everyone wants to say is Carp had a bad September and he did but you also have to remember he had a great great year up til then. Dontrelle had a better ERA and more wins, the most important stats. Strikeouts? Who cares. Why do you have to be a strikeout pitcher to win it? Tell that to Greg Maddux. WHIP and BAA? Neat, Dontrelle had a better ERA. "A great year up til than"?? LOL! So you want to play that game? Take away Dontrelle's 3 straight starts in July and he has an ERA of 1.85 on the year!! So don't even try playing that game. Starts giving up 0 ER: DTrain 10, Carp 7 Starts giving up 1 ER: DTrain 8, Carp 7 Starts giving up 2 ER: DTrain 6, Carp 5 Starts giving up 3 ER: DTrain 4, Carp 8 Starts giving up 4+: DTrain 6, Carp 6 Dontrelle's 3 bad starts in July mattered...Carpenter's 3 bad starts in September didn't...they were basically exhibition games Carp deserved it. Congrats on the positive side, less money to shell out for Dontrelle. And I want the D-Train on this team for a long time if the Marlins FO is smart, they'll take the Billy Beane approach and sign him to a long term deal now, before he's eligible for arbitration...sign him to a 5 year deal, and not only are you guaranteed to have him for two extra years, you'll be paying him less than you would if you waited (except for the first year) Why would Willis sign long term when he knows his contract will mean nothing. The way the FO has treated Delgado will have no one looking to sign a contract more than one year.

I want Spike to tell me we're not sellers this offseason after all these articles.... It's just your usage of the word "sellers"...you consider losing free agents that we are better off not keeping(Encarnacion, Burnett), makes us sellers...when it doesn't. Getting Rid of Delgado for no reason makes us Sellers!!!!!! Umm Delgado has not been dealt. Go back to reading about your precious Phillies, we all know your the biggest Phillie homer on this board. This Marlins are sellers. Shopping Delgado and Lowell is proof positive.

Also, even if a minor leaguer is called up, arent they guranteed MLB league minimum money even if they are demoted? I might be wrong. Just like marlins161 is wrong about Olsen not showing anything, except that he pitched really well until he got to Philadelphia. anyone on the 40 will be making the minimum at least. Untrue. The active 25 man roster makes MLB money. Not everyone on the 40 man. So my point, which is absolutely correct, that Olsen wouldn't volunteer to be demoted to the minors to be a starter. Guys like Riedling, who had a big league contract, still made his big league money even though he was sent to the minors. But guys like Olsen, who didn't have a big league contract when the season started, made big league money when he was called up. Like I said Olsen would never say send me down so I can start and turn away a daily breakdown of the MLB minimum of $316,000. That didn't happen. I am 1-zillon percent right about this I realize newbies always think they can't be wrong but there were numerous published stories, quoting Jack and others, that Olsen couldn't be used ot of the pen. They asked him to go to the pen to make room for Valdez and he declined, leaving the Marlins with the only option left to them, which was to option him to Carolina. If Olsen was so LIGHTS OUT as Spike claims, then why would one poor start in Philly cost him his spot in the rotation to Valdez. We're talking Izzy Valdez not Roger Clemens. You guys want to insist that Olsen is a stud, go ahead. You want to insist that Olsen said I want to go to the minors because I can't relieve, go ahead. As it turned out, Vargas immidately went into the rotation. ONCE AGAIN, because you guys seem to have a comprehnsion problem, why didn't Olsen reclaim a rotation spot over Vargas when Vargas immediately went into the rotation? 2003, aren't you the one who said NO WAY Delgado was even going to be shopped. That it was all made up by the media. Guess you were right on that too buddy FYI, Olsen got crushed by the Phils on July 16. Vargas was in the rotation, starting July 18. Olsen in the meantime never pitched again after July 16. Somehow he got hurt. Did he punch a wall in Carolina when he was demoted? Um Olsen had one bad start. Besides that, he was excellent. More K than IP, and a low ERA. You've been shown stats that show he was very good except one start, and told that he was sent down because of inability to pitch out of the pen. Yet you continue to argue, once again showing your a troll. Olsen wasn't excellent. That's the bottom line. He was OK. Was lit up like a X Mas tree in Philly and was demoted because Vargas was better. Olsen didn't say he didn't want to relieve. The club may have felt he was a better starter and not a reliever, so he should be sent down, but that wasn't Olsen saying it. Bottom line Olsen wasn't better than Valdez or Vargas and he some how hurt his elbow. Now he is a medical risk and he remains a good prospect not a great one. Vargas is better, more durable, better worker and clearly the guy the Marlins liked. Otherwise, Olsen would have stayed. It's that simple

Money may have hit the nail right on the head. The club is last in the NL in attendance. It is losing loads of money, regardless of what some of you say, and it has the third lowest attendance in the league. If you believe Forbes, the Marlins have the fourth of fifth lowest value of any MLB team so it isn't exactly a great piece of property to invest in. The stadium push is all but dead. The hurricane had drained disposable income for a while. Maybe relocation is the next step. Makes perfect sense.

I realize newbies always think they can't be wrong but there were numerous published stories, quoting Jack and others, that Olsen couldn't be used ot of the pen. They asked him to go to the pen to make room for Valdez and he declined, leaving the Marlins with the only option left to them, which was to option him to Carolina. If Olsen was so LIGHTS OUT as Spike claims, then why would one poor start in Philly cost him his spot in the rotation to Valdez. We're talking Izzy Valdez not Roger Clemens. You guys want to insist that Olsen is a stud, go ahead. You want to insist that Olsen said I want to go to the minors because I can't relieve, go ahead. As it turned out, Vargas immidately went into the rotation. ONCE AGAIN, because you guys seem to have a comprehnsion problem, why didn't Olsen reclaim a rotation spot over Vargas when Vargas immediately went into the rotation? 2003, aren't you the one who said NO WAY Delgado was even going to be shopped. That it was all made up by the media. Guess you were right on that too buddy FYI, Olsen got crushed by the Phils on July 16. Vargas was in the rotation, starting July 18. Olsen in the meantime never pitched again after July 16. Somehow he got hurt. Did he punch a wall in Carolina when he was demoted?

who cares they are six year FAs. We are talking Admin Barnes and Mark Little type players.

On Vargas vs. Olsen, Olsen was demoted because of performance. He got shelled by the Phillies. He threw terribly and that was the clincher that he needed to go. Players who are called up get paid MLB money, even if it is for a week or two or a day or two. This is fact. They get a prorated portion of the minimum, in Olsen's case. That was a portion of $316,000. So you are saying Olsen preferred to be demoted, and not collect MLB money, is really ridiculous. Facts are facts. The Marlins indeed liked Vargas better than Olsen, that is why he stayed. Vargas was called up on July 14 and Olsen was already in the rotation. Olsen didn't get the job done. You claim that Vargas was willing to relieve and that's why he stayed up. Well it didn't take long for Vargas to get into the rotation. If the Marlins felt Olsen was the better starter, he would have stayed. As it turned out, Olsen was frail and immediately had an elbow problem and didn't pitch the rest of the year. Hardly the No. 3 starter and future franchise player Spike feels he is. Look for the Marlins to package Olsen to help move a contract like Lowell. http://www.forbes.com/2005/04/06/05mlbland.html Look at the statistics how you wish. But Forbes says the Marlins made 3M (in 2004) before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. Yep, you really proved a point. You don't even know what any of these numbers mean. Your smoking gun info of proof says the Yankees are LOSING 37 mil and the Marlins are WAY up there with 3 mil. By your logic Tampa Bay is one of the richest teams in the league, with 27 mil in profits. Wow, why would Namoli sell off this cash cow? Thanks for this valuable piece of indisputable evidence. It is so clear how you absolutely proved your point. The Brewers are yet another high revenue team by your calculations. Red Sox are drowning in money. Great post. LOL The D Rays are profitable? HAHAHA. 13,000 fans a game and 24 mil in profits. Why would Namoli sell this cash cow? The Marlins claimed they lost 20 mil in 2004 and about 12 mil in their World Series year of 2003. You don't believe them when they talk. I bet they lost about 20 mil more this year. It is all adding up. Pudge was paid "special money" meaning it was money Loria took from other business interests that were not part of his operating budget. If he had this surplas you experts profess, then he wouldn't have to take it from somewhere else. Anyone with a half a brain and eye for business would see that. Go ahead and keep believing all is well. I never claimed it was a smoking gun you asshat. I just provided the damn link. I was posting what I saw. Read and comprehend. As prinmemito said before it was no secret the DRays were one of the more profitable teams in the league. :thumbup

I find it amusing that over the last week or so, people in here were all happy that the NY media was quoting Sloane as saying Delgado isn't going anywhere based on his September conversation in Houston with Loria. When Sloane made his comments to the NY media, people were all giddy saying Sloane put an end to the rumors. Now, these same people are critical of Sloane for wanting to know what's really going on. Seems here the media is only trustworthy when it writes the spin you want to read. If you see something you don't like, you then spin it to your point of view. Let's let the facts play out. Then decide.

Carpenter did dominate the Marlins. He beat Dontrelle head to head. He deserved it. Dontrelle had a great year. If the team around him played better it may have been a different story. No sour grapes. Carpenter deserved it.

this club will not win more than 75 games next year. Can't wait to watch you eat crow next season. :thumbup I hope they do. I hope I am eating crow. I just am calling it like I see it. Objectively. The team will lose Delgado, trade Lowell and Pierre. By the ASB Lo Duca will be traded if the team is out of it. I hope I am wrong. I sincerely doubt it. If the team wants to rebuild, they should say so and do it. Not keep fooling around.

Unreal that some of you honestly believe this is the media's fault. You are in denial that Delgado is being shopped. The same people who said this was all dug up in September by a Gammons story and that nothing since has any truth to it, we now find out that the media reports are accurate. Delgado is being shopped. The Mets, indeed, as was reported are interested. When Delgado is traded, and it is so clear that he will be, I can't wait to read your responses. The facts are in your faces and you choose to ignore them. The team has botched this badly. No big name free agent will look to sign here after seeing how Delgado is twisting in the wind. Not that the team is in position to sign any big free agents because this club will not win more than 75 games next year. Losing Jack is going to prove to be the biggest loss of the season. The club never won before Jack arrived and we will see if they can win now that he is gone.

To those of you taking a shot at Moneyball's link to Forbes's estimates of the financial health of MLB teams, consider a few things. 1) You offer no alternative estimate whatsoever. 2) The Tampa Bay Devil Rays have been widely known to profit, especially because they get a ton in revenue sharing. 3) The estimate is BEFORE taxes, interest, amortization, and depreciation. This last tidbit is important because a team like the Yankees, who own their own stadium and quite a few other things, would probably get an increase in profits after counting amortization, etc. Basically, anything that the Yankees owned that increased in value or is expected to increase in value affects net profit. It's just a question of what kind of accounting you decide to use. To be honest, I don't believe Loria is losing $20 million per season. He's probably making a slight profit. He can afford to keep the payroll at it's current level, but he wouldn't make any money. To be honest, I do believe Loria is losing 20 mil a season. I don't believe they "made" $3 mil two years ago, or whenever that Forbes report says. If you notice in that ranking system by Forbes, the Marlins ranked 25 or so in terms of worth of clubs. Low to the bottom in that end. Anyone believing this team is well off money wise is fooling themselves. See those quotes today by Selig saying the Marlins need a new stadium to make it work? I guess Selig is lying too. That will be the response by you blind followers who think the payroll is going great and that Loria can't figure out enough ways to spend creatively on players. Marlins161, Olsen wasn't demoted because of that start in Philadelphia, most of the pitchers on our staff would be demoted because we got demoralized at Citizens Bank Park this season, he didn't want to work out of the pen, Vargas was willing to, that is why Olsen was demoted. Are you a relative or friend or the agent of Olsen? You defend everything about him. You say Olsen agreed to go to the minors rather than relieve? Awesome. Turn down big league money to go to the minors. Funny but Vargas seemed to get a lot of starts for a guy who agreed to go to the pen. Again, Olsen was demoted because he wasn't showing much at that point. He was shelled by the Phillies and Vargas simply is better.