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Girardi and Fish at odds over pitching coach


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New manager Joe Girardi and the Marlins' front office are reportedly at odds over who should be the team's pitching coach. Girardi wants to hire Jimmy Key. The Marlins, on the other hand, want to retain incumbent Mark Wiley.

As if the team doesn't have enough problems right now. The Marlins have already missed out of their first choice to become the hitting coach. The job was expected to go to Andres Galarraga, but Galarraga told them he wants another season off before getting back into the game. Nov. 11 - 3:37 am et

 

-- RotoWorld.com

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Gotta let the coach pick his own guys.

 

Keeping Perry Hill is one thing. But the pitching coach is probably the manager's most important guy.

 

I have no problem with Wiley, but if you're trusting the new coach to run the team, he's going to have the best chance of doing that by having the people around him he feels most comfortable with.

 

 

 

 

"Jimmy Key??

Jimmy Key?? What's he, like 45?

Jack d'you see the game? Dinnit suck? I thought it sucked!--"

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I like Wiley. I think if Jack designated more responsibilities to him our bullpen wouldn't have been quite as mishandled/abused/stunk as badly. He was motivate both Willis and Burnett - two players who are polar opposites -, and keep Beckett healthy.

 

But this is Loria's team. Girardi is his man. And Key is Girardi's choice.

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Let Girardi hire Jimmy Key.

 

I don't see where Wiley did that great of a job with the bullpen last year anyways. It won't be a loss if he doesn't return, IMHO.

 

He did a great job with D-Train and Beckett had a career year under him and Wiley did a good job of keeping Beckett's blister problem under control.

 

The bullpen was just horrible, nothing Wiley or any other pitching coach could have done about it. If anyone is to blame for the bullpen disaster last year, it's Jack for mismanaging it on an almost daily basis.

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Guest Moneyball

Let Girardi hire Jimmy Key.

 

I don't see where Wiley did that great of a job with the bullpen last year anyways. It won't be a loss if he doesn't return, IMHO.

 

He did a great job with D-Train and Beckett had a career year under him and Wiley did a good job of keeping Beckett's blister problem under control.

 

Beckett throwing more splitters had more to do with keeping the blister problem under control. Wiley might have told him to throw that pitch more often who knows. But I agree with you I want them to keep Wiley.

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The insistence that Jack somehow blew out the pen is so ridiculous. Ever think that maybe the relievers themselves didn't get the job done? The first month everyone was noting how the starters were going deep, getting complete games. Mota didn't get his first save about the 20th game. By May 1 Mota was on the DL, so that is Jack's fault? Alfonseca was throwing 85 in the spring and blew up in late April. That's Jack's fault? Perisho couldn't get any situational lefty out. That was Jack's fault? Riedling was ineffective. Again, Jack? Come on. Be stand up about some things. Players are accountable for their performances. If they are overworked, they can ask for days off. The point I do agree with is Wiley will not return now that it is out in the open. If Girardi wants Key, he will now, unless Key turns it down.

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Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation.

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Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation.

 

 

That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

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Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation.

 

 

That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters.

 

It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it.

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Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation.

 

 

That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters.

 

It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it.

 

 

I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given.

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Maybe. Relievers are inconsistent from year to year. But it's not difficult to wonder where these players - Mecir, Mota, Alfonseca, Jones, Riedling and others - would have done if they were given consistent roles or weren't asked to warm-up usually once per game and once more if they were going to pitch that night, then thrown in a tight situation and given no motivation aside from the yelling and screaming and the giving a cold shoulder Jack is known for. Ask for a day off and they're in his doghouse. That's not an ideal work situation.

 

 

That's garbage saying if you asked for a day off you were in the dog house. Jack handled the pen the same way 3 straight years. He helped us win a World Series. I'll trust Jack's instincts on relievers more than yours. One title in three years ain't bad. Guys underperform and you blame the manager. Blame the player for once for not living up to his end. Maybe those guys just weren't that good.

What were the stats from 03's pen, exactly? It was The Yellow Dart and whoever the band-aid was that night. The best performers in the pen during the playoffs were starters.

 

It's pretty well established we won in 2003 not because of our pen but in spite of it.

 

 

I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given.

 

Furthermore, to absolutely blow out of the water your claim that it's been established the 03 team won in spite of the bullpen, chew on this fact. There is no wild card title. There is no playoff without the bullpen. That team won because it added Urbina and Fox giving three solid pitchers on the back end. You saying otherwise means nothing to me.

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Have you heard of Jim Mecir, Antonio Alfonseca, Guillermo Mota, Todd Jones and John Riedling before? I have. They came to the Marlins with good backgrounds. That's why they were signed to large guaranteed major league contracts, unlike some of the spring training invites you named. There was talent this year. Unlike any in the past. And the same results came. Why? If the past reports of Jack's style of handling the bullpen suggest anything, it's that these pitchers faced stress that they rarely encountered before. Did you not see all that action happening in the bullpen from your seat or couch? Did you not pay attention when Dave & Roxy pointed it out? Have you blocked out all the scolding that has gone on through the three years? Jack treated them like disposable commodities.

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Have you heard of Jim Mecir, Antonio Alfonseca, Guillermo Mota, Todd Jones and John Riedling before? I have. They came to the Marlins with good backgrounds. That's why they were signed to large guaranteed major league contracts, unlike some of the spring training invites you named. There was talent this year. Unlike any in the past. And the same results came. Why? If the past reports of Jack's style of handling the bullpen suggest anything, it's that these pitchers faced stress that they rarely encountered before. Did you not see all that action happening in the bullpen from your seat or couch? Did you not pay attention when Dave & Roxy pointed it out? Have you blocked out all the scolding that has gone on through the three years? Jack treated them like disposable commodities.

 

 

Large guaranteed contracts? Alfonseca $316K plus incentives. Came as damaged goods. Management couldn't see that. The guy failed a physical and broke down in the spring. Jones 1.1 M, enjoyed a great season backed by Jack's confidence in him. You may recall Jack kept him as closer and didn't give the job back to Mota because of injury. Riedling 750K. Released by the Reds, a team in dire need of relief help before being a free agent to sign with the Marlins. Mecir 1.1M was leaning retirement but gave it one more shot. Mota was arbitration and made market value. So where do you get off saying this pen was filled with large contract guys? You think 1.1M is Steinbrenneresque? Mecir was a 1 inning guy who wasn't abused. Mota was the mystery guy. Not a bright guy. Pouted when asked to be used in setup.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble. Jack wasn't the problem with the pen. The pitchers themselves were. Management kept giving Jack slugs like Travis Smith, Crowell. Messenger. Resop. Maybe someday Messenger and Resop will be good. They aren't there yet.

 

You noted it is well documented that 03 won in spite of a pen. I proved you were wrong. Jack brilliantly used the pen in 03. Only after Fox and Urbina arrived.

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I seem to remember in Game 4 of the WS Looper getting out of a little difficulty in extra innings. Seems Looper got a key strikeout, with the bases loaded, I believe, and then a key pop out to third. Bottom half of that inning, if memory serves me correctly, Alex Gonzalez may have hit a walk off HR. Seem to remember in the fifth game, Urbina getting Matsui to ground out to Lee at first base. Marlins won that contest too. I seem to remember a certain manager named McKeon who had the guts and instincts to put Pavano in the pen vs the Giants. It was the instincts of the manager to use Pavano to get 2 big pop outs with the bases loaded in the second game of that series. When McKeon had good relievers in 2003, Fox, Urbina, Looper that is when the pen became consistent. Jack got the most out of his relievers. It wasn't his fault many of what he was handed wasn't that good since 2003. Messenger. Resop. Travis Smith. Jim Crowell. The list went on and on. Management supplied these players. The manager just used what he was given.

So, like I said, only the starters did anything in the pen in playoffs in 2003.

 

Bullpen Stats, 2003 playoffs:

Urbina- 1-0, 4 Sv, 13.0 IP, 3.46 ERA, 0.92 WHIP, 14 K, 4 BB

Fox- 1-0, 1 Hold, 11.1 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.85 WHIP, 9 K, 9 BB

Looper- 2-0, 1 Sv, 1 Hold, 7.0 IP, 5.14 ERA, 1.57 WHIP, 5 K, 3 BB

Bump- 0-0, 3.0 IP, 6.00 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 3 K, 0 BB

Tejera- 0-1, 1.1 IP, 6.75 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, 1 K, 0 BB

Helling- 0-0, 8.2 IP, 7.27 ERA, 1.96 WHIP, 7 K, 6 BB

Willis- 0-1, 1 Hold, 12.2 IP, 8.53 ERA, 1.97 WHIP, 10 K, 10 BB

 

In 57 IP, the pen allowed 59 hits and walked 32 batters. That's a collective WHIP of 1.60. Teams that have bullpens with WHIPs of 1.60 win for other reasons. Furthermore, look at the individual stats. WHIPs of 1.97, 1.96, 1.50, 1.57, and 1.85. ERAs of 8.53, 7.27, 6.75, so on. Just need to look at the stats instead of being blinded by memory that changes as your attachment from the incident in question increases. The lowest ERA in the pen was 3.46 for God's sakes! That's a good ERA for a starter, not for a reliever.

 

If you're going to respond back, actually do so with an argument. If you give me another crappy counter I won't bother responding.

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Stats don't mean sh** in the playoffs. Livan Hernandez won the 1997 W.S MVP with a sh**y ERA. Doesn't mean he didn't pitch his heart out.

 

I have to agree with marlins161 here. The bullpen's woes were not Jack's fault last year. The only reason he ended up shuffling the bullpen the entire season is because guys kept underperforming. Riedling was crap with Cincinnati. The Marlins had hoped he would make a comeback, but that didn't happen... Mecir had a decent season. He did what he was expected to do. Jones was friggin unbelievable... Alfonseca has never been great. He had a good year under Mazzone, so everyone thought he would repeat it down here... didn't happen..

 

And in 2003, the big three in the pen were Looper, Fox, and Urbina. Jack knew exactly how to use those guys... Even last season, Jack knew how to use his bullpen when he had talent (Seanez, Mota, Benitez, etc..)... It's amazing how much criticism a manager gets when players underachieve.

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