Jump to content


Loria and Henry...


FilterXG
 Share

Recommended Posts

Two men who ruin their former franchises, get a presidential pardon by Mr Selig. Henry takes over one of the most valuable franchises in the game after ruining the Marlins. Loria for no reason other than being one of "Selig's Boys" gets the Marlins. Even in our sorry state we were a vast improvement over Montreal.

 

Now both will have World Series rings with their new teams. Hmm...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You basic premise is incorrect.

 

Loria did not "ruin" his previous franchise. The blame squarely falls on the shoulders of the (previous) ownership group who, to a man, ran the team as if it was broken toy, thrown in the back of a kid's closet. And like a child, when they didn't get what they wanted they pouted and blamed everyone but themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You basic premise is incorrect.

 

Loria did not "ruin" his previous franchise. The blame squarely falls on the shoulders of the (previous) ownership group who, to a man, ran the team as if it was broken toy, thrown in the back of a kid's closet. And like a child, when they didn't get what they wanted they pouted and blamed everyone but themselves.

602169[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not critizing what Loria has done here, I think he's the best owner we have ever had (not much competition). But I'll trust the Expos fans that they know when it all went downhill. They blame Loria.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You basic premise is incorrect.

 

Loria did not "ruin" his previous franchise. The blame squarely falls on the shoulders of the (previous) ownership group who, to a man, ran the team as if it was broken toy, thrown in the back of a kid's closet. And like a child, when they didn't get what they wanted they pouted and blamed everyone but themselves.

602169[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not critizing what Loria has done here, I think he's the best owner we have ever had (not much competition). But I'll trust the Expos fans that they know when it all went downhill. They blame Loria.

602289[/snapback]

 

 

And they're wrong. :thumbdown

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

I didnt say all the players, i said many. I think Loria is not wealthy enough to run a team the way it has to be run. The Marlins will always be in the cycle of developing good players than losing them to wealthier teams. It is the system that is screwed up and i dont think Loria himself has done anything spectacular. And yes i do blame his regime for the debacle in Montreal. He mad some bad financial decisions and was never able to recopurate...IMO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple of years ago the Toronto Globe and Mail, the most prestigious newspaper in Canada and one of the world's great newspapers (as opposed to the Montreal Gazette, owned in part by one-time owner of the Expos and currently a minority owner of the Marlins) did an indepth investigative series of pieces on what exactly happened with the team and came to the conclusion that Loria was used (by the local Montreal ownership group) as a "scapegoat" (their word not mine) for Claude Braschu (sic) and the rest.

 

I take the words of the Globe and Mail as fact since I wasn't there. They have no overt axe to grind as they aren't in Quebec and weren't beholding to the local government. It's easy to blame Loria but from what I've read (and I started following this the first day Loria was mentioned as a potential suitor for the Marlins) he seems to have done everything he could to make baseball work in Montreal inspite of the clic-ish behavior of the previous ownership group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Loria is not wealthy enough to run a team the way it has to be run. The Marlins will always be in the cycle of developing good players than losing them to wealthier teams. It is the system that is screwed up and i dont think Loria himself has done anything spectacular.

If only he had the wealth of John Henry, Wayne Huizenga, Carl Pohlad, Peter Angelos, Artie Moreno and Turner/AOL Time Warner... if only. That Loria is actually investing the revenue he receives from this city and us fans to improve the club for the short-term and long-term when so many owners do not is commendable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

Look, Loria had nothing to do with all the on-field talent. We got Pudge because no one else wanted him, and it worked out. We didn't trade for Fox, he was outright released from the Red Sox, again, we got him because no one else wanted him. We overpayed (at the time) for Urbina, but it worked out very well. Dontrelle came to us accidentally because I believe we tried asking for Andy Sisco but were refused. And as far as the Pavano thing goes...we only asked for him because he was the first player that Loria signed to a contract extension in Montreal, and we asked for Justin Wayne because he was the first player to get a signing bonus from Loria.

 

I love the Marlins, but I'm not a big fan of Loria. Looking back, I'd say we got incredibly lucky that we could make oves that could be described as accidents yet they turned up golden. And Loria didn't win with his "own team" as much as you'd think. Off of our World Series roster, our starting 3rd baseman, short stop, second baseman, first baseman, left fielder, as well as our "alternate-closer" and our starters for games 1,3,5,6 were left from the previous GM. That's a pretty big foundation to inherit.

 

 

And Marlins2003, it's no secret you've been a big Loria supporter, you even commended him for the replica rings they gave out :p . I'm not completely against him, he's arguably the best owner we've had, but just by being the lesser of three evils doesn't necessarily make you good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The former owners along with Brochu shared a huge part of the blame (not keeping the 94 team together and constant firesales) but Loria did some truly idiotic/franchise destruction things when he had the whole city laying down at his feet ready to support him:

 

- Entered a new market they did not know and never hired a LOCAL marketing director. They decide to run it the New York way, bad idea !

 

- Negotiate the TV contracts like a hard-ass. Result? no games on TV for the 2000 season. Simply ridiculous. Any pro team needs TV exposure, especially one with a fragile hold on it's market.

 

- No English radio for the 2000 season.

 

- Made some truly horrible player moves. Westbrook and Lilly for Yankee Irabu :plain giving a 3 year/9 million contract to former Yankee Graeme Lloyd. He sure loves the Yankees. Those idiotic moves ate payroll and when the team really needed help after a rash of pitching injuries in 00(Expos were in contention in early June), they couldn't trade for anyone.

 

- Decided to pull the plug on a stadium deal that was according to some ''that'' close to happening.

 

 

Loria did not ''ruin'' the franchise, he just destroyed any hope of a potential re-birth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again TSwift, an owner's job is to set the golas of the organization and to hire the best front office staff to accomplish those goals. It has been Beinfest and the scouting department that have had spotty success. Now if you want to blame Loria for hiring them that's one thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again TSwift, an owner's job is to set the golas of the organization and to hire the best front office staff to accomplish those goals. It has been Beinfest and the scouting department that have had spotty success. Now if you want to blame Loria for hiring them that's one thing.

602355[/snapback]

 

Again, you misread.

 

I said that Loria deserved little to no credit because all the credit/blame should go to Beinfest and the scouting departmen, as you reinforced with your reply.

 

Loria signs the checks and makes suggestions (like Pavano/Wayne), but Beinfest takes the most active hand in sculpting the team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

Look, Loria had nothing to do with all the on-field talent. We got Pudge because no one else wanted him, and it worked out. We didn't trade for Fox, he was outright released from the Red Sox, again, we got him because no one else wanted him. We overpayed (at the time) for Urbina, but it worked out very well. Dontrelle came to us accidentally because I believe we tried asking for Andy Sisco but were refused. And as far as the Pavano thing goes...we only asked for him because he was the first player that Loria signed to a contract extension in Montreal, and we asked for Justin Wayne because he was the first player to get a signing bonus from Loria.

 

I love the Marlins, but I'm not a big fan of Loria. Looking back, I'd say we got incredibly lucky that we could make oves that could be described as accidents yet they turned up golden. And Loria didn't win with his "own team" as much as you'd think. Off of our World Series roster, our starting 3rd baseman, short stop, second baseman, first baseman, left fielder, as well as our "alternate-closer" and our starters for games 1,3,5,6 were left from the previous GM. That's a pretty big foundation to inherit.

 

 

And Marlins2003, it's no secret you've been a big Loria supporter, you even commended him for the replica rings they gave out :p . I'm not completely against him, he's arguably the best owner we've had, but just by being the lesser of three evils doesn't necessarily make you good.

602349[/snapback]

 

 

Hey, I like those rings! lolol

 

I've been a big supporter because I feel he DESERVES to be supported. To suggest that the success of the Marlins was because of Dave "I was just following orders because I'm a gutless coward and inept to boot" Dombrowski is a fraud. Anytime you want to debate the awful trades, player signings and giveaways (post firesale) that DD made and nearly ruined this franchise I'm game.

 

I don't know how to break this to you Swifty but "we" didn't pay Pudge his $10 million, Loria did. "We" didn't sign Chad Fox, Loria did. "We" didn't overpay for Urbina, Loria did. And "we" didn't lose $15+ million last year and again this season, Loria did. He's the guy writing the checks, digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses, and virtually every news account of major trades and moves suggests that he plays a big role in the final decision on most of them.

 

The guy isn't perfect, but give the guy his due - he saved major league baseball in South Florida and for that I'm eternally greatful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, I like those rings! lolol

 

I've been a big supporter because I feel he DESERVES to be supported. To suggest that the success of the Marlins was because of Dave "I was just following orders because I'm a gutless coward and inept to boot" Dombrowski is a fraud. Anytime you want to debate the awful trades, player signings and giveaways (post firesale) that DD made and nearly ruined this franchise I'm game.

 

I don't know how to break this to you Swifty but "we" didn't pay Pudge his $10 million, Loria did. "We" didn't sign Chad Fox, Loria did. "We" didn't overpay for Urbina, Loria did. And "we" didn't lose $15+ million last year and again this season, Loria did. He's the guy writing the checks, digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses, and virtually every news account of major trades and moves suggests that he plays a big role in the final decision on most of them.

 

The guy isn't perfect, but give the guy his due - he saved major league baseball in South Florida and for that I'm eternally greatful.

602411[/snapback]

Dombrowski had much more to do with the 2003 championship than Beinfest did. Only 10 players with any type of significant role on the 2003 championship were brought in by Beinfest. The rest were brought in by Dombrowski. Hell, even Cabrera was signed by scouts while Dombrowski was still GM.

 

I'm not gonna say Loria has done a bad job because he most certainly hasn't, but it's not like he went out and made any significant increases in payroll since he got here. I know the first response I get for saying that will be, "oh but he went out and got Pudge." You have to remember that money was freed up by the CJ and Wilson deal.

 

Like I mentioned in the other thread where we discussed this, Loria has benefited from the young-talented players brought in by Dombrowski, and a couple of good cost cutting moves by Beinfest. Our problem is now, that our young players are starting to get their big contracts and Loria's lack of spending is going to start to really hurt this team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

Look, Loria had nothing to do with all the on-field talent. We got Pudge because no one else wanted him, and it worked out. We didn't trade for Fox, he was outright released from the Red Sox, again, we got him because no one else wanted him. We overpayed (at the time) for Urbina, but it worked out very well. Dontrelle came to us accidentally because I believe we tried asking for Andy Sisco but were refused. And as far as the Pavano thing goes...we only asked for him because he was the first player that Loria signed to a contract extension in Montreal, and we asked for Justin Wayne because he was the first player to get a signing bonus from Loria.

 

I love the Marlins, but I'm not a big fan of Loria. Looking back, I'd say we got incredibly lucky that we could make oves that could be described as accidents yet they turned up golden. And Loria didn't win with his "own team" as much as you'd think. Off of our World Series roster, our starting 3rd baseman, short stop, second baseman, first baseman, left fielder, as well as our "alternate-closer" and our starters for games 1,3,5,6 were left from the previous GM. That's a pretty big foundation to inherit.

 

 

And Marlins2003, it's no secret you've been a big Loria supporter, you even commended him for the replica rings they gave out :p . I'm not completely against him, he's arguably the best owner we've had, but just by being the lesser of three evils doesn't necessarily make you good.

602349[/snapback]

 

 

Hey, I like those rings! lolol

 

I've been a big supporter because I feel he DESERVES to be supported. To suggest that the success of the Marlins was because of Dave "I was just following orders because I'm a gutless coward and inept to boot" Dombrowski is a fraud. Anytime you want to debate the awful trades, player signings and giveaways (post firesale) that DD made and nearly ruined this franchise I'm game.

 

I don't know how to break this to you Swifty but "we" didn't pay Pudge his $10 million, Loria did. "We" didn't sign Chad Fox, Loria did. "We" didn't overpay for Urbina, Loria did. And "we" didn't lose $15+ million last year and again this season, Loria did. He's the guy writing the checks, digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses, and virtually every news account of major trades and moves suggests that he plays a big role in the final decision on most of them.

 

The guy isn't perfect, but give the guy his due - he saved major league baseball in South Florida and for that I'm eternally greatful.

602411[/snapback]

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wow, where to start?

 

1) Dombrowski deserves a hell of a lot of credit: here are the players he left behind that we had on the team last year: Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Alex Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera, Brian Banks, Mike Redmond, Andy Fox, Ramon Castro, Brad Penny, Josh Beckett, Michael Tejera, Tommy Phelps, AJ Burnett, Allen Levrault, Braden Looper. To put it in perspective, the new regime only had four acquisitions that made a serious consequence for us last year, Juan Pierre, Ugeth Urbina, Pudge, and Pavano/Redman (because when one stunk, the other played well). I really don't see how you can see Dombrowski as a "gutless coward." He was able to build a serious contendor from the ashes of the '97 team. When he absolutely had to dump payroll, he was able to get a lot in return. We had a "fire sale" to a lesser extent this past offseason, and Hee Sucks Choi, Travis Ezi, Bill Murphy and Mike Nannini isn't that great of a bounty compared to Derrek Lee, AJ Burnett, and Preston Wilson, and let's not forget that we got (at the time, arguably) more for Matt Mantei than the Mariners got for Griffey. I'm not saying that's the case, but you can find articles from '99 that'll say that. Was the Bautista for Andy Fox trade dumb? Yes, but money played just as much of a role in dumping Bautista as dumping Floyd and we don't bitch about it because we got an overrated Pavano (there I said it) and an underachieving and overrated Justin Wayne for Floyd (Mordecai and Lloyd don't count). Beinfest was either shrewd or lucky with the Dempster trade, depending on whether or not you want to believe we knew about Dempster's serious arm issues.

 

2) "We" absolutely pay those players. Where the hell do you think Loria gets his money, a tree in his backyard? The prices he charges us go towards the players' salaries. Does he have a lot of money from his art dealings? Yes, but don't expect me to be sympathetic towards him because he's "digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses." By professionaly sports ownership standards, Loria's poor, very very poor. He knew the massive costs required to run a franchise, he knew that he was taking on a team without a stadium, in an apathetic market, with a previously negotiated bad lease. I don't feel bad for him at all, if anything, he deserves even less of my respect because he made a bad decision to buy a franchise he couldn't afford to keep financially competitive.

 

3) I don't know if you can say that anything has "saved" baseball in South Florida, we're five days away from essentially D-Day for this franchise. I don't think there's any debate that no stadium on November 1st means that the most important offseason in franchise history could be off to a terrible start that may end with more rumblings of a departure from the market. Do I believe MLB will allow Loria to move? No, but logic doesn't seem to hold much with Selig and his boys. What's more, a World Series victory that was meant to begin "the Golden age" for this franchise, has really started out with more of a whimper than a bang.

 

Let's look at it this way: if Loria being the owner when we won the World Series last year instantly absolves him of all the wrong-doings in Montreal, does John Henry being the owner when the Red Sox win the World Series absolve him of all the wrongdoings here in Florida?

 

I mean, Loria's "greatness" begins and ends with that "2003 World Series Champions" sign in right field, wouldn't Henry being the owner who brought in Schilling, who brought home a world championship to Boston make him great?

 

You're willing to overlook all Loria did wrong in Montreal because of last year, are Montreal fans still overlooking it? Will you find a single Montreal fan who doesn't blame Loria?

 

Well, if Loria's such a "great guy" isn't Henry that much better? I mean, he digs much deeper into his checkbooks to get Schilling and Foulke, to keep Manny, Pedro, Damon and Ortiz, to provide the fans of Boston with the second highest paid team in baseball, and to put a team on the field that looks like it's going to bring a World Series trophy home to Boston, instantly making him the "best owner they've ever had."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

Look, Loria had nothing to do with all the on-field talent. We got Pudge because no one else wanted him, and it worked out. We didn't trade for Fox, he was outright released from the Red Sox, again, we got him because no one else wanted him. We overpayed (at the time) for Urbina, but it worked out very well. Dontrelle came to us accidentally because I believe we tried asking for Andy Sisco but were refused. And as far as the Pavano thing goes...we only asked for him because he was the first player that Loria signed to a contract extension in Montreal, and we asked for Justin Wayne because he was the first player to get a signing bonus from Loria.

 

I love the Marlins, but I'm not a big fan of Loria. Looking back, I'd say we got incredibly lucky that we could make oves that could be described as accidents yet they turned up golden. And Loria didn't win with his "own team" as much as you'd think. Off of our World Series roster, our starting 3rd baseman, short stop, second baseman, first baseman, left fielder, as well as our "alternate-closer" and our starters for games 1,3,5,6 were left from the previous GM. That's a pretty big foundation to inherit.

 

 

And Marlins2003, it's no secret you've been a big Loria supporter, you even commended him for the replica rings they gave out :p . I'm not completely against him, he's arguably the best owner we've had, but just by being the lesser of three evils doesn't necessarily make you good.

602349[/snapback]

 

 

Hey, I like those rings! lolol

 

I've been a big supporter because I feel he DESERVES to be supported. To suggest that the success of the Marlins was because of Dave "I was just following orders because I'm a gutless coward and inept to boot" Dombrowski is a fraud. Anytime you want to debate the awful trades, player signings and giveaways (post firesale) that DD made and nearly ruined this franchise I'm game.

 

I don't know how to break this to you Swifty but "we" didn't pay Pudge his $10 million, Loria did. "We" didn't sign Chad Fox, Loria did. "We" didn't overpay for Urbina, Loria did. And "we" didn't lose $15+ million last year and again this season, Loria did. He's the guy writing the checks, digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses, and virtually every news account of major trades and moves suggests that he plays a big role in the final decision on most of them.

 

The guy isn't perfect, but give the guy his due - he saved major league baseball in South Florida and for that I'm eternally greatful.

602411[/snapback]

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wow, where to start?

 

1) Dombrowski deserves a hell of a lot of credit: here are the players he left behind that we had on the team last year: Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Alex Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera, Brian Banks, Mike Redmond, Andy Fox, Ramon Castro, Brad Penny, Josh Beckett, Michael Tejera, Tommy Phelps, AJ Burnett, Allen Levrault, Braden Looper. To put it in perspective, the new regime only had four acquisitions that made a serious consequence for us last year, Juan Pierre, Ugeth Urbina, Pudge, and Pavano/Redman (because when one stunk, the other played well). I really don't see how you can see Dombrowski as a "gutless coward." He was able to build a serious contendor from the ashes of the '97 team. When he absolutely had to dump payroll, he was able to get a lot in return. We had a "fire sale" to a lesser extent this past offseason, and Hee Sucks Choi, Travis Ezi, Bill Murphy and Mike Nannini isn't that great of a bounty compared to Derrek Lee, AJ Burnett, and Preston Wilson, and let's not forget that we got (at the time, arguably) more for Matt Mantei than the Mariners got for Griffey. I'm not saying that's the case, but you can find articles from '99 that'll say that. Was the Bautista for Andy Fox trade dumb? Yes, but money played just as much of a role in dumping Bautista as dumping Floyd and we don't bitch about it because we got an overrated Pavano (there I said it) and an underachieving and overrated Justin Wayne for Floyd (Mordecai and Lloyd don't count). Beinfest was either shrewd or lucky with the Dempster trade, depending on whether or not you want to believe we knew about Dempster's serious arm issues.

 

2) "We" absolutely pay those players. Where the hell do you think Loria gets his money, a tree in his backyard? The prices he charges us go towards the players' salaries. Does he have a lot of money from his art dealings? Yes, but don't expect me to be sympathetic towards him because he's "digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses." By professionaly sports ownership standards, Loria's poor, very very poor. He knew the massive costs required to run a franchise, he knew that he was taking on a team without a stadium, in an apathetic market, with a previously negotiated bad lease. I don't feel bad for him at all, if anything, he deserves even less of my respect because he made a bad decision to buy a franchise he couldn't afford to keep financially competitive.

 

3) I don't know if you can say that anything has "saved" baseball in South Florida, we're five days away from essentially D-Day for this franchise. I don't think there's any debate that no stadium on November 1st means that the most important offseason in franchise history could be off to a terrible start that may end with more rumblings of a departure from the market. Do I believe MLB will allow Loria to move? No, but logic doesn't seem to hold much with Selig and his boys. What's more, a World Series victory that was meant to begin "the Golden age" for this franchise, has really started out with more of a whimper than a bang.

 

Let's look at it this way: if Loria being the owner when we won the World Series last year instantly absolves him of all the wrong-doings in Montreal, does John Henry being the owner when the Red Sox win the World Series absolve him of all the wrongdoings here in Florida?

 

I mean, Loria's "greatness" begins and ends with that "2003 World Series Champions" sign in right field, wouldn't Henry being the owner who brought in Schilling, who brought home a world championship to Boston make him great?

 

You're willing to overlook all Loria did wrong in Montreal because of last year, are Montreal fans still overlooking it? Will you find a single Montreal fan who doesn't blame Loria?

 

Well, if Loria's such a "great guy" isn't Henry that much better? I mean, he digs much deeper into his checkbooks to get Schilling and Foulke, to keep Manny, Pedro, Damon and Ortiz, to provide the fans of Boston with the second highest paid team in baseball, and to put a team on the field that looks like it's going to bring a World Series trophy home to Boston, instantly making him the "best owner they've ever had."

602458[/snapback]

 

Wow, what bullcrap!

 

"We" don't even come close to paying player's salaries, never mind the rest of the organization's costs. He, Loria, by every account loses money operating this franchises, which means HE pays, not us. I don't see us (season ticketholders and those in attendence) being assessed to make up the difference at the end of the year, HE writes a check to make up the shortfall. This isn't communism, this isn't "Animal Farm" ala Goerge Orwell, at the end of the day, he's the guy writing checks to keep baseball alive in South Florida, not the fans.

 

Dave Dombrowski was and will continue to be wrong on player personnel decisions more than he's been right. For every player that worked out there's another (and maybe two) that failed to make the grade or were traded off (and again I'm talking post '97 firesale) to become MLB bonafide players elsewhere. Dave Dombrowski is a living example of the axiom that "even a broken clock is right twice a day". Take him down from the pedestal you've got him on and realize he was a failure here.

 

As for Loria in Montreal I'll stick by the analysis of the Globe and Mail, that Loria was scapegoated by the locals to cover their sins. The example of no radio in Montreal is a great example. Guess why? Because he would have been forced into producing two broadcasts (one in english and one in french) to fulfill the government mandated bi-lingualism law that controls all media in Quebec while receiving only on revenue stream. He chose to produce neither. I don't blame him. I blame the system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People in Florida are such fairweather EVERYTHING, Loria is a below average owner who basically destoyed Montreal. The Marlins while they have won a championship under his regime have done so using many of the players that where brought in during prior regime's i.e. Lowell, Beckett, & Penny...jsut to name a few. I neither hate nor like Loria but based on his prior ownership of the Expos I'd say he is a below average owner...

602300[/snapback]

 

And what about Fudge Rodriquez? Who signed him? What about trading for Fox and Urbina? D-Train's trade? Trading for Pavano?

 

I think you severly understate the level of involvement of Loria on the one hand (as with the Marlins' example) and grossly overstate the involvement on the other (as with the Expos' example). The Expos were damaged goods BEFORE '94 and even though they had the best record in baseball at that time, they were still not drawing well and the cancellation of that season didnt help. These are things you cant rationally blame on Loria.

 

And I dont think everyone here is giving Loria carte blanche here. The current group has made some stupid moves too. But winning a World Series in your second season of ownership SHOULD buy you a little benefit of doubt.

602316[/snapback]

 

Look, Loria had nothing to do with all the on-field talent. We got Pudge because no one else wanted him, and it worked out. We didn't trade for Fox, he was outright released from the Red Sox, again, we got him because no one else wanted him. We overpayed (at the time) for Urbina, but it worked out very well. Dontrelle came to us accidentally because I believe we tried asking for Andy Sisco but were refused. And as far as the Pavano thing goes...we only asked for him because he was the first player that Loria signed to a contract extension in Montreal, and we asked for Justin Wayne because he was the first player to get a signing bonus from Loria.

 

I love the Marlins, but I'm not a big fan of Loria. Looking back, I'd say we got incredibly lucky that we could make oves that could be described as accidents yet they turned up golden. And Loria didn't win with his "own team" as much as you'd think. Off of our World Series roster, our starting 3rd baseman, short stop, second baseman, first baseman, left fielder, as well as our "alternate-closer" and our starters for games 1,3,5,6 were left from the previous GM. That's a pretty big foundation to inherit.

 

 

And Marlins2003, it's no secret you've been a big Loria supporter, you even commended him for the replica rings they gave out :p . I'm not completely against him, he's arguably the best owner we've had, but just by being the lesser of three evils doesn't necessarily make you good.

602349[/snapback]

 

 

Hey, I like those rings! lolol

 

I've been a big supporter because I feel he DESERVES to be supported. To suggest that the success of the Marlins was because of Dave "I was just following orders because I'm a gutless coward and inept to boot" Dombrowski is a fraud. Anytime you want to debate the awful trades, player signings and giveaways (post firesale) that DD made and nearly ruined this franchise I'm game.

 

I don't know how to break this to you Swifty but "we" didn't pay Pudge his $10 million, Loria did. "We" didn't sign Chad Fox, Loria did. "We" didn't overpay for Urbina, Loria did. And "we" didn't lose $15+ million last year and again this season, Loria did. He's the guy writing the checks, digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses, and virtually every news account of major trades and moves suggests that he plays a big role in the final decision on most of them.

 

The guy isn't perfect, but give the guy his due - he saved major league baseball in South Florida and for that I'm eternally greatful.

602411[/snapback]

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wow, where to start?

 

1) Dombrowski deserves a hell of a lot of credit: here are the players he left behind that we had on the team last year: Derrek Lee, Luis Castillo, Mike Lowell, Alex Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera, Brian Banks, Mike Redmond, Andy Fox, Ramon Castro, Brad Penny, Josh Beckett, Michael Tejera, Tommy Phelps, AJ Burnett, Allen Levrault, Braden Looper. To put it in perspective, the new regime only had four acquisitions that made a serious consequence for us last year, Juan Pierre, Ugeth Urbina, Pudge, and Pavano/Redman (because when one stunk, the other played well). I really don't see how you can see Dombrowski as a "gutless coward." He was able to build a serious contendor from the ashes of the '97 team. When he absolutely had to dump payroll, he was able to get a lot in return. We had a "fire sale" to a lesser extent this past offseason, and Hee Sucks Choi, Travis Ezi, Bill Murphy and Mike Nannini isn't that great of a bounty compared to Derrek Lee, AJ Burnett, and Preston Wilson, and let's not forget that we got (at the time, arguably) more for Matt Mantei than the Mariners got for Griffey. I'm not saying that's the case, but you can find articles from '99 that'll say that. Was the Bautista for Andy Fox trade dumb? Yes, but money played just as much of a role in dumping Bautista as dumping Floyd and we don't bitch about it because we got an overrated Pavano (there I said it) and an underachieving and overrated Justin Wayne for Floyd (Mordecai and Lloyd don't count). Beinfest was either shrewd or lucky with the Dempster trade, depending on whether or not you want to believe we knew about Dempster's serious arm issues.

 

2) "We" absolutely pay those players. Where the hell do you think Loria gets his money, a tree in his backyard? The prices he charges us go towards the players' salaries. Does he have a lot of money from his art dealings? Yes, but don't expect me to be sympathetic towards him because he's "digging into his pockets to come up with the cash to cover the franchise's losses." By professionaly sports ownership standards, Loria's poor, very very poor. He knew the massive costs required to run a franchise, he knew that he was taking on a team without a stadium, in an apathetic market, with a previously negotiated bad lease. I don't feel bad for him at all, if anything, he deserves even less of my respect because he made a bad decision to buy a franchise he couldn't afford to keep financially competitive.

 

3) I don't know if you can say that anything has "saved" baseball in South Florida, we're five days away from essentially D-Day for this franchise. I don't think there's any debate that no stadium on November 1st means that the most important offseason in franchise history could be off to a terrible start that may end with more rumblings of a departure from the market. Do I believe MLB will allow Loria to move? No, but logic doesn't seem to hold much with Selig and his boys. What's more, a World Series victory that was meant to begin "the Golden age" for this franchise, has really started out with more of a whimper than a bang.

 

Let's look at it this way: if Loria being the owner when we won the World Series last year instantly absolves him of all the wrong-doings in Montreal, does John Henry being the owner when the Red Sox win the World Series absolve him of all the wrongdoings here in Florida?

 

I mean, Loria's "greatness" begins and ends with that "2003 World Series Champions" sign in right field, wouldn't Henry being the owner who brought in Schilling, who brought home a world championship to Boston make him great?

 

You're willing to overlook all Loria did wrong in Montreal because of last year, are Montreal fans still overlooking it? Will you find a single Montreal fan who doesn't blame Loria?

 

Well, if Loria's such a "great guy" isn't Henry that much better? I mean, he digs much deeper into his checkbooks to get Schilling and Foulke, to keep Manny, Pedro, Damon and Ortiz, to provide the fans of Boston with the second highest paid team in baseball, and to put a team on the field that looks like it's going to bring a World Series trophy home to Boston, instantly making him the "best owner they've ever had."

602458[/snapback]

 

Wow, what bullcrap!

 

"We" don't even come close to paying player's salaries, never mind the rest of the organization's costs. He, Loria, by every account loses money operating this franchises, which means HE pays, not us. I don't see us (season ticketholders and those in attendence) being assessed to make up the difference at the end of the year, HE writes a check to make up the shortfall. This isn't communism, this isn't "Animal Farm" ala Goerge Orwell, at the end of the day, he's the guy writing checks to keep baseball alive in South Florida, not the fans.

 

Dave Dombrowski was and will continue to be wrong on player personnel decisions more than he's been right. For every player that worked out there's another (and maybe two) that failed to make the grade or were traded off (and again I'm talking post '97 firesale) to become MLB bonafide players elsewhere. Dave Dombrowski is a living example of the axiom that "even a broken clock is right twice a day". Take him down from the pedestal you've got him on and realize he was a failure here.

 

As for Loria in Montreal I'll stick by the analysis of the Globe and Mail, that Loria was scapegoated by the locals to cover their sins. The example of no radio in Montreal is a great example. Guess why? Because he would have been forced into producing two broadcasts (one in english and one in french) to fulfill the government mandated bi-lingualism law that controls all media in Quebec while receiving only on revenue stream. He chose to produce neither. I don't blame him. I blame the system.

602477[/snapback]

 

Bullcrap, right back at ya.

 

I absolutely understand that any money lost comes out of an owner's pocket, but any time a new expensive player is added, or a team fields a competitive payroll (something we don't have) ticket prices are raised accordingly. Look, Red Sox fans don't come close to paying for their $100 million + payroll, but the fact that they're willing to pay so much for their tickets sure as hell ensures that their payroll stays high. "We" the fans are just as important, if not more important than an owner, to the financial solvency of a franchise. An owner could truck out a team of 25 guys making the major league minimum but still lose money if "we" don't pay. And you know what else, give me a freakin' break, every body who is devoted to their team refers to the team as "we." It represents the devotion the fan(s) have with their team, and the fact that as fans who pay for merchandise, tickets and television, they feel as if they are part of a very important financial circle for their franchise. Do my three season tickets amount to a whole lot? Probably not, but I feel as if Loria should be more committed to the fans who are willing to make serious investments of time, money and travel for his franchise.

 

What the hell is your problem with Dombrowski? He got some serious value during his tenure as our G.M. He added very fine talent when he had money to spend (Alou, Brown, Fernandez) made some very shrewd trades to acquire players that other teams didn't really see as a long term solution (Lowell, Floyd), and got some serious value when he had to rid himself of players he was told could not be kept around (Lee, Burnett, Wilson). Not to mention that he did a fantastic job of signing foreign players who became major league ready talent fairly quickly (Renteria, Gonzalez, Castillo, Cabrera). Read Moneyball there's a very telling quote in there from Billy Beane saying that if you give him 10 "can't miss" prospects, maybe you'll get 3 major league players. This obviously doesn't mean that Dombrowski was alone in making bad player decisions. Hell, Beinfest has screwed up rather notably in the draft these past two seasons, with Hermida and Olsen being the only notable players he has added through the draft who are on the fast track to serious assistance. I fail to see any notable examples of an egregious mistake made by Dombrowski that wouldn't have been made by just about any other GM in his same position. Your monday morning quarterbacking is not fair judgement, and by your track-history with your posting, I bet you were exceedingly optimistic about any trades he made, after all, you were one of the more vocal supporters of the Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee trade. If Johan Santana is the only example you can give me of a serious Dombrowski error becoming a major league superstar, then you lose all credibility to me. Regardless, present me your list of screw-ups by Dombrowski, after all, I believe you said you were "game" if anyone wanted to debate this point.

 

And as for that Globe and Mail story...post a link, until then it's your word against the mass media (not just in Montreal) and Expos fans everywhere in general, and Expos Ranchod on this board who seem to vehemently disagree with your assessment of Loria as an innocent scapegoat, rather chosing to describe him as the man who put the final nail in the coffin of the Montreal Expos.

 

And you still haven't answered my question of "if Loria is good because he won a World Series, doesn't that make Henry better?" By your standards, Henry does for Boston everything that makes Loria good here, but Henry does everything to a greater extent than Loria. You absolve Loria from his Montreal fiasco because he's a good owner here, by that standard, shouldn't you absolve Henry?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave Dombrowski was and will continue to be wrong on player personnel decisions more than he's been right. For every player that worked out there's another (and maybe two) that failed to make the grade or were traded off (and again I'm talking post '97 firesale) to become MLB bonafide players elsewhere. Dave Dombrowski is a living example of the axiom that "even a broken clock is right twice a day". Take him down from the pedestal you've got him on and realize he was a failure here.

 

602477[/snapback]

Considering the situation Dombrowski was put in he did an excellent job. Other GMs knew that he had to get rid of these players, which left him with minimal leverage. Out of the major contributors who had any kind of trade value from the 1997 team only 3 of those players did we trade and not get someone back that did not make it to the majors. Alou, Conine, and Nen. Not to mention he got Lowell for 3 nobodies. I don't know of any GMs who could've done much better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bet you were exceedingly optimistic about any trades he made, after all, you were one of the more vocal supporters of the Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee trade.

602513[/snapback]

It was a great trade. We saved $7.5 million and got a player back that was only a slight downgrade. Too bad he went and screwed that up with the Lo Duca trade which has put us in this position of possibly losing both Lowell and Pavano.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave Dombrowski was and will continue to be wrong on player personnel decisions more than he's been right. For every player that worked out there's another (and maybe two) that failed to make the grade or were traded off (and again I'm talking post '97 firesale) to become MLB bonafide players elsewhere. Dave Dombrowski is a living example of the axiom that "even a broken clock is right twice a day". Take him down from the pedestal you've got him on and realize he was a failure here.

 

602477[/snapback]

Considering the situation Dombrowski was put in he did an excellent job. Other GMs knew that he had to get rid of these players, which left him with minimal leverage. Out of the major contributors who had any kind of trade value from the 1997 team only 3 of those players did we trade and not get someone back that did not make it to the majors. Alou, Conine, and Nen. Not to mention he got Lowell for 3 nobodies. I don't know of any GMs who could've done much better.

602519[/snapback]

 

Fontenot made the majors (and he was the #16 overall pick in the '95) so I guess you could cross Nen off that list...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bet you were exceedingly optimistic about any trades he made, after all, you were one of the more vocal supporters of the Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee trade.?

602513[/snapback]

It was a great trade. We saved $7.5 million and got a player back that was only a slight downgrade. Too bad he went and screwed that up with the Lo Duca trade which has put us in this position of possibly losing both Lowell and Pavano.

602522[/snapback]

 

I really don't want to get into this debate, but if you think that Choi is "slight downgrade" from Lee, then you overvalue OPS to a sickeningly high level. Choi was very mediocre here (that monster April aside), and he was God awful in LA, and for someone whose value was primarily OPS, it takes a lot for a stat-head like DePodesta to give up on you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bet you were exceedingly optimistic about any trades he made, after all, you were one of the more vocal supporters of the Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee trade.?

602513[/snapback]

It was a great trade. We saved $7.5 million and got a player back that was only a slight downgrade. Too bad he went and screwed that up with the Lo Duca trade which has put us in this position of possibly losing both Lowell and Pavano.

602522[/snapback]

 

I really don't want to get into this debate

602525[/snapback]

me neither, we've been down this road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...