July 8, 200323 yr I like Conine, I really do. He was one of my favorites, and I remember being really excited when we got him from Kansas City back in our early days - I thought he was going to be a very good ballplayer. But he is 37, and although in very good shape, his offense is somewhat better than Lee's, but I would rather stay with Lee if this is the only deal we can get. Sure, Conine the Barbarian has got better clutch ability, and may help us score more runs consistently, but we have got to get value in return. Conine could also go and get injured and be gone. If we do this trade, I would like to see us get a little more in return, perhaps an young pitcher mid-level prospect. I do like the idea of dealing Lee though, especially for a veteran to play his position. What is the general consensus out there?
July 8, 200323 yr Oh, my! The same topic? again! LACK OF TOPICS TO DISCUSS :chair , NEED BULLPEN HELP :thumbup
July 8, 200323 yr Honestly I don't like the deal straight up. I think Lee's age should be considered in the deal. I love Conine too but come on, straight swap? Give us some bullpen love or a nice Lefty bat too. The only good lefty bat though in the bigs is Gibbons and that ain't happining. I would like to see them throw in Hentgen or Lightenberg. Maybe we could send a low level arm in the mix to smooth it out? Just some thoughts :mischief2
July 8, 200323 yr Kerry Lightenberg YEAR G GS IP H R ER HR BB SO W L Hld Sv BS BAA WHIP ERA 2003 33 0 32.1 35 13 12 3 8 25 0 1 6 1 1 .278 1.33 3.34
July 8, 200323 yr Would the Marlins make this Conine/Lee deal bigger with a starter add to the mix? like a Sidney Ponson? I don't think it could happen just a thought, but I'd prefer if the Marlins were going to trade Lee to the O's then make a three-way and try to get (left-handed power)1B Klesko out SD and have the O's pay part of Klesko salary by adding top prospects.
July 8, 200323 yr i just heard on baseball tonight that the O's are going to make a decision on Ponson and they apparently want to keep him.
July 8, 200323 yr I like Conine, I really do. He was one of my favorites, and I remember being really excited when we got him from Kansas City back in our early days - I thought he was going to be a very good ballplayer. But he is 37, and although in very good shape, his offense is somewhat better than Lee's, but I would rather stay with Lee if this is the only deal we can get. Sure, Conine the Barbarian has got better clutch ability, and may help us score more runs consistently, but we have got to get value in return. Conine could also go and get injured and be gone. If we do this trade, I would like to see us get a little more in return, perhaps an young pitcher mid-level prospect. I do like the idea of dealing Lee though, especially for a veteran to play his position. What is the general consensus out there? Clutch hitting is not an ability...and I would love to have Klesko if his salary is partially paid.
July 8, 200323 yr Would the Marlins make this Conine/Lee deal bigger with a starter add to the mix? like a Sidney Ponson? I don't think it could happen just a thought, but I'd prefer if the Marlins were going to trade Lee to the O's then make a three-way and try to get (left-handed power)1B Klesko out SD and have the O's pay part of Klesko salary by adding top prospects. nice thought but i dont think that would happen.....
July 8, 200323 yr Conine is good with RISP. Thats something Lee isnt good at. This is a good trade For both teams. Maybe Derek Can bust out of it and start hitting good with them. We really need another run producer and conine is perfect. I would of love to have some bullpen help though....
July 9, 200323 yr Author Clutch hitting is not an ability...and I would love to have Klesko if his salary is partially paid. If clutch hitting is not an ability, how exactly would you characterize it? I am curious to hear your answer. As for this being the same topic as other threads, this is not the first time that this has happened, and since I am still in Italy, could I at least catch a break? I didnt want to read 12 pages... :banghead
July 9, 200323 yr If clutch hitting is not an ability, how exactly would you characterize it? I am curious to hear your answer. As for this being the same topic as other threads, this is not the first time that this has happened, and since I am still in Italy, could I at least catch a break? I didnt want to read 12 pages... :banghead Since im not eloquent or smart at all Ill defer to a post downrodeo made. You either accept it or dont so I wont try and argue with you....here it is.... The reason they don't keep stats on "clutch hitting" is because it'd be the most vague and arbitary stat in the world. I mean, where do you draw the line between what's a clutch hit and what's not? A guy knocks in 2 runs in the 8th to put his team ahead by a run, and it's a clutch hit...until the other team scores 6 in the next half-inning. Then the hit didn't really matter, because they lost anyway. Another good example, the series in Boston. In the 2nd game, Encarnacion homers late to make it a 3-run game. The Fish come back and win in the 9th, and now Encarnacion's hit is 'clutch.' The next day, Lee homers late to make it a 4-run game. But the Fish don't come back, so Lee's homer is meaningless. Doesn't really seem fair to Lee does it? Today Lee drew a bases loaded walk that tied the game at 1. But the Marlins went on to score 19 more times, so Lee's walk didn't really matter did it? Of course, if the Marlins won the game 2-1, then it would've been pretty important. But I guess the stat that would best capture "clutch" hitting, if there were such a thing, would be the 'Close and Late' stat, which ESPN so graciously keeps track of. This season, in 'Close and Late' situations, Lee has an OPS of .597 in 43 at-bats. A pretty bad number. But if you COMBINE the 'Close and Late' stat from the 2000 season to the 2002 season, it comes out to a .996 OPS in 274 at-bats. Hmm...so which number is more likely to be an aberration? The .597 OPS compiled from a half season and 43 at-bats? Or the .996 OPS compiled from 3 full seasons and more than SIX times as many at-bats? And welcome back from Italy...missed your insightful posts!
July 9, 200323 yr Author Sham, seems you like you another thread brewing here! I think this would be a very interesting debate, and of course, I have to disagree because I think clutch, in a way, defines who is a great player and who is not. Some guys have a little 'somthing' else that other guys dont. You know, they are 'winners'. To avoid getting off topic, I will stop talking about this for now. But please refer me to this thread so I can read it over when I get back (tomorrow!) and we can discuss this further... :w00t :thumbup
July 9, 200323 yr ...and since I am still in Italy, could I at least catch a break? I didnt want to read 12 pages... :banghead No breaks! You have to suffer the same as the rest of us! :lol
July 9, 200323 yr lol, HC. Well, the best example I can think of is BArry bonds when he was with the Pirates. Bonds arguably the one of the greatest players of all-time hit .100 or so in a bunch of playoff games. Would you say he was going through a natural slump or just shrunk from the big time? And he played awesome in the Giants run to the WS last season. And downrodeo seems to have a better grasp on this topic then me or anyone else Ive seen posting. I'm jsut a new disciple and still learning. Im seem to be hated for my belief like im a heretic or something.
July 9, 200323 yr I like D.Lee... he is an incredible defensive first basemam...and lets not forget that he hasnt missed a game in how long? Conine is a good player but I would rather stay with D.Lee,he's been a big part of the Marlins,.
July 9, 200323 yr I like D.Lee... he is an incredible defensive first basemam...and lets not forget that he hasnt missed a game in how long? Conine is a good player but I would rather stay with D.Lee,he's been a big part of the Marlins,. You're thinking in a nutshell... You need to comprehend all of the intangibles...
July 9, 200323 yr I like D.Lee... he is an incredible defensive first basemam...and lets not forget that he hasnt missed a game in how long? Conine is a good player but I would rather stay with D.Lee,he's been a big part of the Marlins,. Good man! Dont listen to these nay-sayers! And again...im not a big lee fan at all, I just think hes better then you guys give him credit for.
July 9, 200323 yr You're talking to the wrong man... I give D-Lee every ounce of credit when it's due. I am one of very few in the Derrek Lee fan club...
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