Especially since the same thing is happening in Sudan right now.

That doesnt negate the fact that war has had positive results. I see no one responded to my post about General Dallaire in Rwanda. Its very easy to regurgitate what you hear on the news about Iraq, but its too hard to read up on the actual events that occured in Rwanda. watching the movie isnt enough. So someone please answer this question, in rwanda, violence by daalire would have saved lives. Would it have been justified, or should we always manage a peaceful solution even at the expense of lives? I will not argue any longer if you feel that those 800,000 lives were worth the sacrifice b/c the western world did not resort to violence. Whats better 500 dead Hutu extremists and 100 Europeans or 800,000 innocent rwandans? Thats an easy choice for me to make, war would have been the best solution.

842687[/snapback]

 

It's a dilemma, hindsight is 20/20, and like I responded earlier the problem is not as one-dimensional as you describe it.

 

Let's hypothetically say that they do attack the weapons cache - who's to say that ends the rebellion? The rebels would more than likely just have gone out and gotten more weapons and probably hidden them better. If the U.N. was to take action right then and there, they would have not only had to face the rebels at their base, but face retaliation in a larger scale from the rest of the Hutu forces. Something they thought they were not prepared to do at the time.

 

Had they captured the cache it would have probably delayed the genocide, but who's to say it would have stopped it? In order to have stopped the genocide it would have involved a long term engagement in Rwanda - something the U.N. and the U.S. were not willing to do at the time.

 

However they were willing to do it in Kosovo, a couple years later. Interesting...

 

As to your question whether war would have saved lives in this case, I suppose it would have. For a little while at least...

The truth is, the problem should have never reached that point. It was negligency that let it escalate and reach that point.

I'll probably get called a communist hippie again, but instead of giving all our foreign aid money away to Israel so they can create more war, we should invest that money and try to get Africa out of the Middle Ages. But that's just me.

842884[/snapback]

 

 

And just who would you give the money to? The UN so they will rip it off like they did in the oil for food deal or to the dictators in the African countries so they will rip it off and build more power while the people starve?

 

Let me tell you someting, I DO know Felo Ramirez and he would be ashamed of someone like you using his name and image. You sir are a moron and a communist bum. but then again reading your profile I see that nobody should take your opinions seriously, Mr. Death and Metal....

Let me tell you someting, I DO know Felo Ramirez and he would be ashamed of someone like you using his name and image. You sir are a moron and a communist bum. but then again reading your profile I see that nobody should take your opinions seriously, Mr. Death and Metal....

842911[/snapback]

 

I do know Felo, and out of respect for him I will take his likeness off my sig and avatar, just because I don't want any of this to be associated with him. This is my opinion and my opinion only.

 

And just because someone doesn't agree with your world-view does not mean they are a communist, but feel free to belittle me it makes you feel bigger I really couldn't give a crap.

 

And just who would you give the money to? The UN so they will rip it off like they did in the oil for food deal or to the dictators in the African countries so they will rip it off and build more power while the people starve?842911[/snapback]

 

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

Let me tell you someting, I DO know Felo Ramirez and he would be ashamed of someone like you using his name and image. You sir are a moron and a communist bum. but then again reading your profile I see that nobody should take your opinions seriously, Mr. Death and Metal....

842911[/snapback]

 

I do know Felo, and out of respect for him I will take his likeness off my sig and avatar, just because I don't want any of this to be associated with him. This is my opinion and my opinion only.

 

And just because someone doesn't agree with your world-view does not mean they are a communist, but feel free to belittle me it makes you feel bigger I really couldn't give a crap.

 

And just who would you give the money to? The UN so they will rip it off like they did in the oil for food deal or to the dictators in the African countries so they will rip it off and build more power while the people starve?842911[/snapback]

 

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

 

 

See Oil for food.. rest my case...you are a moron.

This man was a hero-

 

He saved the lives of many men under his command, and possibly some that weren't. The men that he killed, members of Saddam's Republican Guard, were the worst of the worst when it came to ruthless killers and murderers. Those men were basically the Gestapo of Iraq in their day. The majority of them likely deserved to die.

 

On the other hand, I agree that if I were that man's son, I would want him alive, rather than receive a medal in his place. However, when in combat, lives can be lost in the blink of an eye.

 

In conclusion....the war was wrong, yes, but this man was a hero for what he did, being just one man in a large army.

842852[/snapback]

great post

echoes my sentiments exactly

regardless of whether the war is right or wrong, this man is a hero and gave his life to save others.

Sigh, Maroone, you sound like a typical disgruntled Cuban who thinks everyone outside of the right is communist. Im Cuban, I have respect for both Cubans and Republicans, but not for bigots like you going around giving titles to people.

I didn't know anyone could disagree with a war on terrorism. Liberals are more stupid than I thought. I kind of figured everyone thought terrorism was a bad thing.

...And to show no respect for the US military... Tsk tsk. Some people don't deserve their freedom at all.

This kind of trash talk about our country makes me regret ever enlisting in the Army. To think that I have put my life on the line against terrorism to defend some of these morons literally makes me sick to my stomach at times. I try so hard to understand liberals, but in the end I have reached the decision that the far left is nothing more than sick in the head. It is exactly why I have to call myself a moderate because the further you go in either direction, the crazier they get.

 

The U.S. needs another 9/11. But then again, everyone would probably just blame Bush and say he wasn't ready for it or something and then next thing you know Bush was the highjacker or something. I'm no big fan of Bush, but I am a fan of common sense.

 

And yes, I voted for Kerry.

This kind of trash talk about our country makes me regret ever enlisting in the Army. To think that I have put my life on the line against terrorism to defend some of these morons literally makes me sick to my stomach at times. I try so hard to understand liberals, but in the end I have reached the decision that the far left is nothing more than sick in the head. It is exactly why I have to call myself a moderate because the further you go in either direction, the crazier they get.

 

The U.S. needs another 9/11. But then again, everyone would probably just blame Bush and say he wasn't ready for it or something and then next thing you know Bush was the highjacker or something. I'm no big fan of Bush, but I am a fan of common sense.

 

And yes, I voted for Kerry.

843880[/snapback]

 

Who said they opposed the war on terrorism? Besides what felo originally said, which he obviouslly retracted, what was said that disrespected the military or makes you think people were sick in the head by all the liberals here?

That doesnt negate the fact that war has had positive results. I see no one responded to my post about General Dallaire in Rwanda. Its very easy to regurgitate what you hear on the news about Iraq, but its too hard to read up on the actual events that occured in Rwanda. watching the movie isnt enough. So someone please answer this question, in rwanda, violence by daalire would have saved lives. Would it have been justified, or should we always manage a peaceful solution even at the expense of lives? I will not argue any longer if you feel that those 800,000 lives were worth the sacrifice b/c the western world did not resort to violence. Whats better 500 dead Hutu extremists and 100? Europeans or 800,000 innocent rwandans? Thats an easy choice for me to make, war would have been the best solution.

842687[/snapback]

 

It's a dilemma, hindsight is 20/20, and like I responded earlier the problem is not as one-dimensional as you describe it.

 

Let's hypothetically say that they do attack the weapons cache - who's to say that ends the rebellion? The rebels would more than likely just have gone out and gotten more weapons and probably hidden them better. If the U.N. was to take action right then and there, they would have not only had to face the rebels at their base, but face retaliation in a larger scale from the rest of the Hutu forces. Something they thought they were not prepared to do at the time.

 

Had they captured the cache it would have probably delayed the genocide, but who's to say it would have stopped it? In order to have stopped the genocide it would have involved a long term engagement in Rwanda - something the U.N. and the U.S. were not willing to do at the time.

 

However they were willing to do it in Kosovo, a couple years later. Interesting...

 

As to your question whether war would have saved lives in this case, I suppose it would have. For a little while at least...

The truth is, the problem should have never reached that point. It was negligency that let it escalate and reach that point.

I'll probably get called a communist hippie again, but instead of giving all our foreign aid money away to Israel so they can create more war, we should invest that money and try to get Africa out of the Middle Ages. But that's just me.

842884[/snapback]

 

 

I've posted earlier what I feel my solution should be, and part of it IS NOT the US sending more money to Africa. In terms of genocidal activities it has nothing to do with poverty or the economic conditions. In fact it has to do with the colonization after WWI of those nations. The hatred among ethnic groups would exist regardless of economic conditions. What does need to happen in Rwanda for example is that the Dutch clean up their own mess or give the UN some muscle. A standing UN force would alleviate the pressure on individual nation-states to put in their own troops and funds to alleviate ethnic violence and the like. Now I'm not saying that alleviating the economic crisis in african nations and helpign to put an end to corrupt regimes would be negative, but it wont do much in terms of genocide. As many people on the board know, I took it upon myself to research genocide intensely a few months back, so Sudan is something I'm defintely looking at as well. However, if you recall IKFR, it wasnt a huge hutu force that initiated the genocide and assassination, it was a very small group of extremists who controlled the radio broadcasts and planned the assassination. Once that group took control, other hutus joined in, but wihtout the radical upsurgence the genocide would not have happened at that scale. It would have been more like what happened in Burundi after their president was assassinated.

 

Sudan is a complicated issue. Its a genocide being run by the dictatorship of the region. However, it isnt a rwanda style genocide in which the abrasive govt takes over, quickly initiates at an extreme scale, and is then ousted. Sudan is more of an Iraq style genocide, in which the extermination of all blacks is not the goal, but the containment of them is the goal. To isolate them all to the east side of the nation not just through murder but through coercion and fear.

This kind of trash talk about our country makes me regret ever enlisting in the Army.? To think that I have put my life on the line against terrorism to defend some of these morons literally makes me sick to my stomach at times.? I try so hard to understand liberals, but in the end I have reached the decision that the far left is nothing more than sick in the head.? It is exactly why I have to call myself a moderate because the further you go in either direction, the crazier they get.

 

The U.S. needs another 9/11.? But then again, everyone would probably just blame Bush and say he wasn't ready for it or something and then next thing you know Bush was the highjacker or something.? I'm no big fan of Bush, but I am a fan of common sense.

 

And yes, I voted for Kerry.

843880[/snapback]

Don't worry dewd. Most of the country supports you guys fighting for our country, it's just a few idiots that are so far left they're no longer liberals, that oppose our troops.

Let me tell you someting, I DO know Felo Ramirez and he would be ashamed of someone like you using his name and image.? You sir are a moron and a communist bum.? but then again reading your profile I see that nobody should take your opinions seriously, Mr. Death and Metal....

842911[/snapback]

 

I do know Felo, and out of respect for him I will take his likeness off my sig and avatar, just because I don't want any of this to be associated with him. This is my opinion and my opinion only.

 

And just because someone doesn't agree with your world-view does not mean they are a communist, but feel free to belittle me it makes you feel bigger I really couldn't give a crap.

 

And just who would you give the money to?? The UN so they will rip it off like they did in the oil for food deal or to the dictators in the African countries so they will rip it off and build more power while the people starve?842911[/snapback]

 

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

 

Studies have been done showing foreign aid does not lead to economic development. In most cases economic development being defined as growth in GDP but other measures were used as well. Throwing money at the nations is not the answer.....one glarring example being Ghana where in the 80's an economic resurgance plan based around the building of a damn failed miserably after an incredible amount of money was supplied to Ghana through foreign aid to cover monetary gap.

 

The idea goes that to reach a certain level of growth countries need to save a specific amount of their income. In this case, savings are equivalent to investment. basically whatever is not consumed is is invested. poor countries have to consume most of their income in order to survive so they cant maintain high savings rate...that's where foreign aid comes in to "fill the gap" of what the country cant save.

 

alas, mostly due to corruption, inexpereience and poor infrastructure, countries waste the foreign aid away.......what poor countries need are honest leaders, educated plannners and incentive for people to want to invest in their country

This kind of trash talk about our country makes me regret ever enlisting in the Army. To think that I have put my life on the line against terrorism to defend some of these morons literally makes me sick to my stomach at times. I try so hard to understand liberals, but in the end I have reached the decision that the far left is nothing more than sick in the head. It is exactly why I have to call myself a moderate because the further you go in either direction, the crazier they get.

 

The U.S. needs another 9/11. But then again, everyone would probably just blame Bush and say he wasn't ready for it or something and then next thing you know Bush was the highjacker or something. I'm no big fan of Bush, but I am a fan of common sense.

 

And yes, I voted for Kerry.

843880[/snapback]

 

Other than the fact that I do not bow down and glorify organized mass slaughter, what makes you think anything that I've said is so sick? What's so sick about trying to prevent war and the death of innocent people?

 

I understand that what I said about heroism may have shocked you and some of the other members of this board. I already explained how I was employing hyperbole and sensationalism in order to get the point across that war is wrong, and violence is never the answer. I was also trying to make the point that suicide bombers are heroes to extreme Islamist fundamentalists and the SS and Nazi soldiers were heroes to the Nazi Germans in much the same way that the Sergeant is a hero to us.

 

I do not doubt this man had courage, conviction and honor. I lament his death, as much as all of you; and I deeply regret his loss, feeling especially bad for his family and his son.

 

 

What has this war in Iraq solved? Absolutely nothing. It has only made things worse. Al-Qaeda is now stronger than ever, since we're recruiting better for them than we are for our own armed forces. The real reasons for us being in Iraq are many and are not discussed openly - but that is a subject for another thread.

 

I understand your frustration though I don't share it, but to say that America needs another 9/11 is foolish and I know you did not really mean it so I'll let it slide.

Let me tell you someting, I DO know Felo Ramirez and he would be ashamed of someone like you using his name and image. You sir are a moron and a communist bum. but then again reading your profile I see that nobody should take your opinions seriously, Mr. Death and Metal....

842911[/snapback]

 

I do know Felo, and out of respect for him I will take his likeness off my sig and avatar, just because I don't want any of this to be associated with him. This is my opinion and my opinion only.

 

And just because someone doesn't agree with your world-view does not mean they are a communist, but feel free to belittle me it makes you feel bigger I really couldn't give a crap.

 

And just who would you give the money to? The UN so they will rip it off like they did in the oil for food deal or to the dictators in the African countries so they will rip it off and build more power while the people starve?842911[/snapback]

 

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

 

Studies have been done showing foreign aid does not lead to economic development. In most cases economic development being defined as growth in GDP but other measures were used as well. Throwing money at the nations is not the answer.....one glarring example being Ghana where in the 80's an economic resurgance plan based around the building of a damn failed miserably after an incredible amount of money was supplied to Ghana through foreign aid to cover monetary gap.

 

The idea goes that to reach a certain level of growth countries need to save a specific amount of their income. In this case, savings are equivalent to investment. basically whatever is not consumed is is invested. poor countries have to consume most of their income in order to survive so they cant maintain high savings rate...that's where foreign aid comes in to "fill the gap" of what the country cant save.

 

alas, mostly due to corruption, inexpereience and poor infrastructure, countries waste the foreign aid away.......what poor countries need are honest leaders, educated plannners and incentive for people to want to invest in their country

844007[/snapback]

 

I was just trying to make the point that something needs to be made whether it be Foreign Aid or whatever, but something needs to be done... I suggested investing money in Africa, involving some sort of international task force/coalition to manage it - not just throw money at dictators. I was in no way suggesting that this was the end-all be-all miracle cure for Africa, merely a start and better than anything we are doing with our Foreign Aid money right now. We could definitely accomplish some of your solutions (in bold) investing and managing that Foreign Aid money.

i agree with that, it is possible

 

i was just trying to broaden the discussion

I understand your frustration though I don't share it, but to say that America needs another 9/11 is foolish and I know you did not really mean it so I'll let it slide.

844079[/snapback]

Yeah, I definitely would never hope for something like that to happen again. It was by far the worst day of my life and a huge part in why I gave myself the final push to enlist.

 

It was really just sarcasm intending on reminding us of what happened that got us into this in the first place. And by "this", I don't mean Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism and we never should have set foot in there.

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

I know this is an incredinly late bump but you sir, are an idiot. Do you support Palestinians, whom as a whole, are incredibly inclined to terrorism? Do you know what they teach children in schools over there? That all Americans and Jews must die. They teach them how to assemble a rifle to the point where they can do it blindfolded. I am not saying all of them are bad people, but the vast majority is. And in regards to comments by you earlier in this thread, I have to agree with everyone else that they are incredibly naive and dishonorable, what you have said.

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

I know this is an incredinly late bump but you sir, are an idiot. Do you support Palestinians, whom as a whole, are incredibly inclined to terrorism? Do you know what they teach children in schools over there? That all Americans and Jews must die. They teach them how to assemble a rifle to the point where they can do it blindfolded. I am not saying all of them are bad people, but the vast majority is. And in regards to comments by you earlier in this thread, I have to agree with everyone else that they are incredibly naive and dishonorable, what you have said.

856780[/snapback]

 

 

Nothign can unite democrats and republicans like a common enenmy can. I totally agree with your statement B4P. Most people in this country know nothing or close to nothing about the israeli-palestinian conflict yet everyone has a strange detailed solution to the problem. A big problem is that euro and american media tends to side with the palestinian side of the struggle rather than the israelis. Portraying the latter as a violent aggressor with huge weapons terrorizing poor innocent people. In fact B4P, when I was growing up I remember reading a magazine given to us by our teacher that depicted on the cover a photograph of an Israeli soldier with a machine gun standing in front of a palestinian woman holding a baby. "Nuff said"

I would create some sort of international coalition to manage and oversee the rebuilding and restructuring. Anything is better than funneling money to Israel so they can forcefully move Palestinians out of their homes.

842980[/snapback]

I know this is an incredinly late bump but you sir, are an idiot. Do you support Palestinians, whom as a whole, are incredibly inclined to terrorism? Do you know what they teach children in schools over there? That all Americans and Jews must die. They teach them how to assemble a rifle to the point where they can do it blindfolded. I am not saying all of them are bad people, but the vast majority is. And in regards to comments by you earlier in this thread, I have to agree with everyone else that they are incredibly naive and dishonorable, what you have said.

856780[/snapback]

 

 

Nothign can unite democrats and republicans like a common enenmy can. I totally agree with your statement B4P. Most people in this country know nothing or close to nothing about the israeli-palestinian conflict yet everyone has a strange detailed solution to the problem. A big problem is that euro and american media tends to side with the palestinian side of the struggle rather than the israelis. Portraying the latter as a violent aggressor with huge weapons terrorizing poor innocent people. In fact B4P, when I was growing up I remember reading a magazine given to us by our teacher that depicted on the cover a photograph of an Israeli soldier with a machine gun standing in front of a palestinian woman holding a baby. "Nuff said"

856796[/snapback]

Yup. What is suprising, that while I am a liberal in America, I almost lean to hard right in Israeli policies. I have been a fan of Sharon since he's the first leader since Rabin that has done good for Israel in the Arab-Israel world.

You know whats interesting? People, who have no perspective, claiming Isreal is in the right and then saying the media is responsible for others, who also have no perspective, thinking the Palestinians are in the right.

 

This has about as much weight as a person who didnt see a fight between person A and B. Then claiming person A must have started it because the anti B media said B started it.

 

None of us have had our families blown up on buses by suicide bombers. None of us have lived in refugee camps while being told that we were driven from our home of many generations. The only people who can say anything about this are the people that are actually there and have lived through this for so many years. Those who take a hard line stance on either side are usually the ones who dont understand how important peace is for this region.

You know whats interesting? People, who have no perspective, claiming Isreal is in the right and then saying the media is responsible for others, who also have no perspective, thinking the Palestinians are in the right.

 

This has about as much weight as a person who didnt see a fight between person A and B. Then claiming person A must have started it because the anti B media said B started it.

 

None of us have had our families blown up on buses by suicide bombers. None of us have lived in refugee camps while being told that we were driven from our home of many generations. The only people who can say anything about this are the people that are actually there and have lived through this for so many years. Those who take a hard line stance on either side are usually the ones who dont understand how important peace is for this region.

859266[/snapback]

 

Thats way too general of a statement to make. If your only reference is the media then your opinion holds no weight. If you've read up on the issue and studied it, your opinion holds much more weight. Lastly, if your living or have live dit, it holds the msot weight. However, those who think that the U.S is a key part of peace in that region are usually the ones that are way off line. I dont have a hardline stance on the issue itself, although I do have a hardline stance on the media's pathetic attempts to educate the public on the topic.

You know whats interesting? People,? who have no perspective, claiming Isreal is in the right and then saying the media is responsible for others, who also have no perspective,? thinking the Palestinians are in the right.

 

This has about as much weight as a person who didnt see a fight between person A and B. Then claiming person A must have started it because the anti B media said B started it.

 

None of us have had our families blown up on buses by suicide bombers. None of us have lived in refugee camps while being told that we were driven from our home of many generations. The only people who can say anything about this are the people that are actually there and have lived through this for so many years. Those who take a hard line stance on either side are usually the ones who dont understand how important peace is for this region.

859266[/snapback]

 

Thats way too general of a statement to make. If your only reference is the media then your opinion holds no weight. If you've read up on the issue and studied it, your opinion holds much more weight. Lastly, if your living or have live dit, it holds the msot weight. However, those who think that the U.S is a key part of peace in that region are usually the ones that are way off line. I dont have a hardline stance on the issue itself, although I do have a hardline stance on the media's pathetic attempts to educate the public on the topic.

861961[/snapback]

 

 

Read up on it from whom though legacy? Many of the people who argue that the Palestinians are oppressed are those who have read up on the issue. A good degree of academia and their writing is blasted for being too pro Palestinian. Ive talked to people on the opposite end of you who have railed off an actual incedents for which the Isreali army has done wrong that the average person doesnt know nor has the media told them. There is just no consensus on one side of the issue as somehow being righteous from any of the three levels you indicate.

 

Its frustrating because the only noise being is are the simple statements like Isreal is right or the Palestinians are rights. Its a ferociously complicated issue for which right and wrong seems so inappropriate. Then you get statements like Palenstinians as a whole are inclined to terrorism? Where is the academic foundation for something like that other than simple virulent rhetoric? With those kinds of statements, is there any hope for peace in that region? Not if both sides are convinced that the other is the epitomy of darkness. And if anyone hasnt been personally affected, hence losing rational perspective, then to argue such a thing is to effectivley contribute to the violence.

Uhh excuse me Mollusk, but I have family in Israel who have to live with that every day. So don't call me out on that.

Uhh excuse me Mollusk, but I have family in Israel who have to live with that every day. So don't call me out on that.

862122[/snapback]

 

Im not calling you out bro. I really respect your opinion.

 

But thats my whole point. If something is personal, it probably makes it more emotional an issue but doesnt necessarily make it more right. Come on Beinfest. Im not being critical of you, but its gotta be hard for you to approach this objectivley. Ive talked to Palestinians who tell me theyve had family members killed by soliders and that somehow makes their argument stronger. Their views are clearly clouded. People who had loved ones die in Northern Ireland will tell you the British are inclinced to be murderers. Youve got a strong excuse for disliking Palestinians. But again, its not an objective argument you make.