Posted August 5, 200321 yr This is an amazing article. Better than the best? By the numbers, this season's Marlins trump the 1997 Marlins at nearly every position. That team won the World Series. This year's team is asking: `Why not us?' BY MIKE PHILLIPS Still wondering if the Marlins are for real? Suddenly, these upstarts are in the playoff hunt, two games out of the wild-card race. One thing keeping the Marlins out of first place is geography: They would be tied for the lead with Houston if they played in the National League Central. But how do they compare against the 1997 Marlins? You remember those guys -- they won the World Series. That team had such stars as Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, Alex Fern?ndez, Mois?s Alou, Bobby Bonilla, Al Leiter and Robb Nen, not to mention a rookie sensation named Liv?n Hern?ndez. Surely the '97 team would hammer the '03 Marlins. Think again. This year's Marlins are better. At least in statistics, and at least at this point of the season. Breaking down the numbers by position, today's Marlins overwhelm the '97 version. It's not even close. True, the '97 Marlins had a better record in early August -- 65-46 vs. 60-51 -- and had the experience and hard-to-quantify intangibles that carried them to the title. But in the eight-man starting lineup, the only '97 player with a statistical edge is left fielder Mois?s Alou, the team's MVP. You might think Gary Sheffield would get the edge over Juan Encarnaci?n in right field, but look at the numbers: Encarnaci?n is a better hitter (.269 vs. .247 batting average) and has driven in 20 more runs. Sheffield gets the edge in home runs (13 vs. 12), but Encarnaci?n has more stolen bases (17 vs. 8) and is better defensively. No outfielder on the '97 team can match Encarnaci?n's arm strength. Comparing payrolls doesn't help in trying to explain the statistical discrepancy. The '97 Marlins had a payroll of $54 million, one of the highest in baseball at the time. The '03 Marlins' $45 million payroll is one of the majors' lowest. The '97 team had the big names, but most of those players had average seasons. No one knew who Dontrelle Willis was two months ago, and now every baseball fan in the country knows about the 21-year-old rookie pitcher. ''That was a name-brand team,'' says Marlins closer Braden Looper. ``They bought a lot of free agents and they had the big names, but we have as much talent. We have players who haven't been around as long. That team had experience we don't have. But this is a talented team. That team believed it was going to the playoffs, but so does this one.'' Third baseman Bobby Bonilla was one of the '97 team's best run producers, but his output pales against that of Mike Lowell, who has 30 homers and 90 RBI. And Bonilla was a mediocre fielder at best compared with Lowell, a Gold Glove candidate. It's the same thing at first base, where Derrek Lee is better defensively than either Jeff Conine or Darren Daulton, who came in a July trade. And, surprisingly, Lee's numbers (.260, 22 HR, 69 RBI) dwarf Conine's (.238, 9, 39). INFIELD DIFFERENCE Today's Marlins are a much better defensive team, with an infield some consider the best in the majors. ''This is the best infield I've ever been around,'' says 72-year-old Marlins manager Jack McKeon. 'They are a thing of beauty to watch. We go into cities and people can't get over the plays they make. I just say, ``Oh, that's nothing, you should see the really good plays.' These guys are unbelievable.'' The '97 team gets a defensive edge in center field -- Devon White vs. Juan Pierre -- and in left -- Alou vs. rookie Miguel Cabrera. At catcher, they're even defensively, but Iv?n Rodr?guez is having a better year batting than Charles Johnson did. NUMBERS GAME More than any sport, baseball is defined by numbers, and the numbers say the 2003 Marlins are a better team. These Marlins have more power (116 vs. 82 homers) and more speed (123 vs. 79 stolen bases). These Marlins have committed 60 errors -- compared with 82 by the '97 team -- and are superior defensively. And they lead in the camaraderie category. ''That was a great team,'' says second baseman Luis Castillo, the only member of the '97 team still with the Marlins. ``That team had a lot more experience and it had [stars] on it, but this team is much closer. Everybody on this team pulls for each other. We push each other, and I think that's why we are winning, because we are so close.'' In '97 Castillo was sent to Triple A when the Marlins made the July 27 trade for Craig Counsell. The Marlins also added Daulton, who was an inspiration in the clubhouse. ''There's no doubt that was a great team,'' says Marlins infield coach Perry Hill, who was with the Detroit Tigers in '97. ``They had a lot of big-name players. But in the last month we have really played as a team. There's no selfishness here.'' The '97 team had won five more games at this juncture of the season, but that team limped into the playoffs, going 27-24 over the final 51 games. The '03 Marlins, one of the hottest teams in baseball, would need to win 32 of their final 51 games to match the '97 team. ''We can definitely do that,'' Looper said. ``The way we've been pitching lately, there's no reason why we can't win 90-92 games. As long as we don't hit a downspin. But our starting pitching has been so good lately. They've carried us.'' SIMILAR PITCHING The '97 Marlins had a better team ERA (3.66 vs. 4.06) at this point, but if you compare the starting rotation and closers, there's not much difference, and today's pitchers get several edges. The '97 staff's ERA rose to 3.88 by season's end, despite Kevin Brown's winless streak after July. The '03 Marlins' ERA has been dropping and might get below 4.00. Brad Penny has been pitching better, and a healthy Josh Beckett has made a difference. Florida has added strong setup man Ugueth Urbina. Then there's Willis (10-2). The team believes it's going to win every time he pitches. ''This team has all the ingredients -- pitching, defense, clutch hitting,'' says Marlins hitting coach Bill Robinson. ``That ['97] team had great players, but this team reminds me of the '86 Mets. It has that confidence, and they are hungry. It's so much fun right now. You see that chemistry and guys pulling for each other. It's not about big names. It's about guys stepping up. ``Why not us? Tell me, why not the fish. Look at Anaheim last year. Nobody gave them a chance, but guys stepped up and came through? Why not us?''
August 5, 200321 yr Author thst season was very special and so is this one... The only way this season is very special is if we win 90. If we don't win 90, it's just another season.
August 5, 200321 yr I'll add a few things, The 97'team had a young RHP come in and really give the team a boost in Livan. Dontrelle did that for us this year. The 97' team had a clutch hitting SS at the tender age of 19 or 20 in Renteria, we have a clutch hitting 3B playing the OF in Cabrera. Nen and Looper are very similar. Its fun to look back.
August 5, 200321 yr that team was amazing, they had the most come from behind wins in the majors. i still remember going to a game that Moises had a walk off hit... those were the days.
August 5, 200321 yr If we don't win 90, it's just another season. Okay I'll give you a chance to take that back Josh....
August 5, 200321 yr Author that team was amazing, they had the most come from behind wins in the majors. i still remember going to a game that Moises had a walk off hit... those were the days. The great thing is, right now, you don't even have to you the phrase, "those were the days", because THESE are the days. Right now.
August 5, 200321 yr WildCard , I cant believe you just said that! please tell me your not a Marlins fan . Anytime my team has a run for the wild card is special regardless what the outcome is. I have seen 25 games this year and i live almost 150 miles away . I watch this team play and im amazed at the teamwork they have . If they dont make the playoffs i will be upset but no way in hell could i say that this year hasnt been special. 97' team was less special to me than this one , not that i didnt mind my boys bringing home the World series , but my goodness did you see that payroll , reminded me of the Yankees . The Marlins of 2003 are players that are making a name for themselves here with the Marlins, Not like the 97' team who were all superstars before they got here . 2003 Marlins make me smile everytime i watch the TV or listen to some Sports commentator talk about them , i havent felt that in a long while and to me thats SPECIAL .
August 5, 200321 yr Author Okay I'll give you a chance to take that back Josh.... I will say this. If we do not make the post-season, it is just another season. It may be a great season, but it will be just another tally to the list of Non Post-Season Years.
August 5, 200321 yr Author 97' team was less special to me than this one , not that i didnt mind my boys bringing home the World series , but my goodness did you see that payroll , reminded me of the Yankees . Yea, that $54 Million payroll was astonishing...
August 5, 200321 yr all i know is the Marlins franchise in its 11th season of play has more W.S. titles then the Cubs and Red Sox combined over the past 75+ seasons.
August 5, 200321 yr WildCard , I cant believe you just said that! please tell me your not a Marlins fan . Anytime my team has a run for the wild card is special regardless what the outcome is. I have seen 25 games this year and i live almost 150 miles away . I watch this team play and im amazed at the teamwork they have . If they dont make the playoffs i will be upset but no way in hell could i say that this year hasnt been special. 97' team was less special to me than this one , not that i didnt mind my boys bringing home the World series , but my goodness did you see that payroll , reminded me of the Yankees . The Marlins of 2003 are players that are making a name for themselves here with the Marlins, Not like the 97' team who were all superstars before they got here . 2003 Marlins make me smile everytime i watch the TV or listen to some Sports commentator talk about them , i havent felt that in a long while and to me thats SPECIAL . Yes...YESSS....bash someone OTHER than ME!! :shifty :shifty
August 5, 200321 yr Yea, that $54 Million payroll was astonishing... Uhhh...it was more than $54, trust me. I'm pretty sure it was over $80 million. A book was actually written about our team after we won the World Series. It was titled something like, "And They Win It's A Shame: How the Florida Marlins Bought the World Series".
August 5, 200321 yr You really need to look things up before you speak. $54 Mill was our 1997 payroll. I think you actually need to have some proof before I believe you.
August 5, 200321 yr Author Uhhh...it was more than $54, trust me. I'm pretty sure it was over $80 million. A book was actually written about our team after we won the World Series. It was titled something like, "And They Win It's A Shame: How the Florida Marlins Bought the World Series". You really need to look things up before you speak. $54 Mill was our 1997 payroll.
August 5, 200321 yr Author You really need to look things up before you speak. $54 Mill was our 1997 payroll. I think you actually need to have some proof before I believe you. I think you need to actually READ the article in which this thread was created for, then come talk to me.
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