June 22, 200420 yr the great Emancipator my ass. He was the PRESIDENT OF THE ILLINOIS COLONIZATION SOCIETY! (i.e. the society that pushed to send all blacks to Liberia, Haiti, etc....as long as they weren't with the "superior race in the States"). The Emancipator who could have saved a war, or at least saved lives if he had not supported the Fugitive Slave Act....this act among others (as tonyi mentioned) was leading to the decline in slavery. Border states had already seen a major drop in slavery by 1860, and was spreading southward. The Emancipator who felt war was necessary to forcefully keep states in a union that they had VOLUNTARILY became a part of. This Emancipator, who's own bastard of a Sec. of War (Seward) mocked his great Emancipation Proclamation, saying how he conveniently made it so slavery was legal in certain parts (the Union pretty much had control of Louisiana, northern VA, West Virginia, Maryland, parts of Tennessee, and Kentucky), and in the other parts, it was impossible to enforce. read a previous post of mine, and buy the book, "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas DiLorenzo (you won't read it Phlub...it would prove you wrong). The myth of Abraham Lincoln is much like the myth of Christopher Columbus...made out to be some great hero, when in actuality...he wasnt. Wow, this is exactly what I was going to post. I learned this over the last few years and was surprised at first. It is very true though, it was all a "mistake" that Lincoln got credit for and he was for sending the slaves to other countries, not to free them here! Well put Furman.
June 22, 200420 yr thank you. Seriously, this book "The Real Lincoln" is REALLY interesting. Also, last nite they had a show on the History Channel about "Abraham Lincoln: Man or Myth"...they only talked about his racism for a little bit, but I felt they also showed that Lincoln was a racist (they failed to show how it affected his policies though, which upset me), they also talked about more trivial things like the original logs to his cabin where he was born, the original copy of the Gettysburg Address, etc.
June 22, 200420 yr thank you. Seriously, this book "The Real Lincoln" is REALLY interesting. Also, last nite they had a show on the History Channel about "Abraham Lincoln: Man or Myth"...they only talked about his racism for a little bit, but I felt they also showed that Lincoln was a racist (they failed to show how it affected his policies though, which upset me), they also talked about more trivial things like the original logs to his cabin where he was born, the original copy of the Gettysburg Address, etc. Actually the term racism was not coined until the early 1910s, and furthermore calling lincoln racist is judging someone from a past time by modern standards, which is a dangerous mistake and is also a very elitist way of thinking.
June 22, 200420 yr The articles of confederation only existed from 1883 to 1889. Sorry, but you're off by a century there.
June 22, 200420 yr thank you. Seriously, this book "The Real Lincoln" is REALLY interesting. Also, last nite they had a show on the History Channel about "Abraham Lincoln: Man or Myth"...they only talked about his racism for a little bit, but I felt they also showed that Lincoln was a racist (they failed to show how it affected his policies though, which upset me), they also talked about more trivial things like the original logs to his cabin where he was born, the original copy of the Gettysburg Address, etc. Actually the term racism was not coined until the early 1910s, and furthermore calling lincoln racist is judging someone from a past time by modern standards, which is a dangerous mistake and is also a very elitist way of thinking. calling him a racist is very simple to do.... 1) He wanted to send freed slaves out of the country. FACT: President of the Illinois Colonization Society...their purpose was to do exactly that: send freed slaves out of the country. 2) He is quoted saying: (about the spread of slavery into the west...which he was against...for racial reasons) "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people." - October 16, 1854 3) quoted saying: "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in MY judgement, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY." - 1858 debate in Ottawa, Illinois. 4) quoted saying that he was not and never had been "in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, not to intermarry with white people." 5) After Douglas insinuated that he could possibly favor racial equality, Lincoln said, "anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the Negro is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse chestnut to be a chestnut horse." 6)Between 1854-1860 there are at least 14 occassions of Lincoln referring to blacks as "inferior". He even calls Mexicans "mongrells". 7) Pertaining to Emancipation, he is quoted saying "Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this...We cannot, then, make them equals." There are also cases of him saying that he would end or continue slavery...whatever "saves the Union".... yah, he's a racist...it is funny though that he changes his personal convictions with back and forth comments during his presidency pertaining to slavery...to keep popular. I mean, what did the Emancipation Proclamation actually get accomplished? Nothing! His secretary of the state, William Seward is quoted mocking the Proclamation: "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." I haven't even gotten into Lincoln's political atrocities, and how he destroyed what the Constitution was meant to do....but, I think those tidbits of information should do the trick in showing that Lincoln was, indeed, a racist AKA white supremacist.
June 22, 200420 yr The articles of confederation only existed from 1883 to 1889. Sorry, but you're off by a century there. take whatever i said last year and change the dates on the articles of confederation....the rest i'm sure still remains true. whatever it was i said.
June 22, 200420 yr you have to remember this. the hatred furman has for lincoln = the hatred sorianofan has for FDR. no matter what these Presidents will always suck in their minds.
June 22, 200420 yr you have to remember this. the hatred furman has for lincoln = the hatred sorianofan has for FDR. no matter what these Presidents will always suck in their minds. He may have hatred for Lincoln but I don't. I can objectively say that the facts speak for themself and that Lincoln was not the great man people say he was. Furman has backed up his opinion with a tremendous amount of facts. Lincoln was a racist and not the great man everyone thought. Facts do not lie.
June 22, 200420 yr you have to remember this. the hatred furman has for lincoln = the hatred sorianofan has for FDR. no matter what these Presidents will always suck in their minds. He may have hatred for Lincoln but I don't. I can objectively say that the facts speak for themself and that Lincoln was not the great man people say he was. Furman has backed up his opinion with a tremendous amount of facts. Lincoln was a racist and not the great man everyone thought. Facts do not lie. The problem is calling someone a 'racist' is objective and cannot be backed up with facts. What do you define as racist? Is Jesse Jackson racist? My argument is not that Lincoln had negative feelings towards blacks, i do not dispute that, but the labeling of the word racist is what im debating. And again you cannot judge people of the past by todays standards. Period.
June 22, 200420 yr The problem is calling someone a 'racist' is objective and cannot be backed up with facts. What do you define as racist? Is Jesse Jackson racist? My argument is not that Lincoln had negative feelings towards blacks, i do not dispute that, but the labeling of the word racist is what im debating. And again you cannot judge people of the past by todays standards. Period. From dictionary.com: racist adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist] Thats what I go by as the definition of a racist. Abraham Lincoln fits that description to a tee. And yes, I can call him a racist and judge people of the past by todays standards. Many people knew that racism was wrong back during Lincoln's time and previous to that as well. It might not have been the majority, but there were definitely people who knew of racism. Lincoln knew of it and thought himself and the white race to be better, he was truly a racist.
June 22, 200420 yr The problem is calling someone a 'racist' is objective and cannot be backed up with facts. What do you define as racist? Is Jesse Jackson racist? My argument is not that Lincoln had negative feelings towards blacks, i do not dispute that, but the labeling of the word racist is what im debating. And again you cannot judge people of the past by todays standards. Period. From dictionary.com: racist adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist] Thats what I go by as the definition of a racist. Abraham Lincoln fits that description to a tee. And yes, I can call him a racist and judge people of the past by todays standards. Many people knew that racism was wrong back during Lincoln's time and previous to that as well. It might not have been the majority, but there were definitely people who knew of racism. Lincoln knew of it and thought himself and the white race to be better, he was truly a racist. People then thought that being homosexual was pure evil, should we go by their standard or ours? Lets go by ours just because we know much more than they do b/c we're progrssive and modern.
June 22, 200420 yr People then thought that being homosexual was pure evil, should we go by their standard or ours? Lets go by ours just because we know much more than they do b/c we're progrssive and modern. People still think that and they are wrong. So let's use our thinking hats and go by the RIGHT standards and not the ignorant ones.
June 22, 200420 yr I'll give way a little bit, Cangelosi....I'll settle for calling Lincoln a white supremacist...(i.e. thinking whites are the supreme race) "I...am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." White Supremacist groups such as the KKK actually are proud of Lincoln's statements like those, and like to use them for their propaganda (this is what they said on the History Channel show last nite).
June 22, 200420 yr I'll give way a little bit, Cangelosi....I'll settle for calling Lincoln a white supremacist...(i.e. thinking whites are the supreme race) "I...am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." White Supremacist groups such as the KKK actually are proud of Lincoln's statements like those, and like to use them for their propaganda (this is what they said on the History Channel show last nite). Thank you. In fact my only problem is with labeling. And as for Sals comment. Who are YOU to say whats wrong and whats right. You're no one to make that kind of judgement and neither am I, and calling these people ignorant or saying that their beliefs are such seems to me like youy may be guilty of what you are accusing them of doing.
June 22, 200420 yr I personally believe homosexuality is wrong. I don't feel like I'm a better person than them though.
June 22, 200420 yr Thank you. In fact my only problem is with labeling. And as for Sals comment. Who are YOU to say whats wrong and whats right. You're no one to make that kind of judgement and neither am I, and calling these people ignorant or saying that their beliefs are such seems to me like youy may be guilty of what you are accusing them of doing. I am the holy ghost.
June 22, 200420 yr Thank you. In fact my only problem is with labeling. And as for Sals comment. Who are YOU to say whats wrong and whats right. You're no one to make that kind of judgement and neither am I, and calling these people ignorant or saying that their beliefs are such seems to me like youy may be guilty of what you are accusing them of doing. I am the holy ghost. praise be yours almighty
June 22, 200420 yr Thank you. In fact my only problem is with labeling. And as for Sals comment. Who are YOU to say whats wrong and whats right. You're no one to make that kind of judgement and neither am I, and calling these people ignorant or saying that their beliefs are such seems to me like youy may be guilty of what you are accusing them of doing. I am the holy ghost. praise be yours almighty Thank you. You may also call me the father or the son. Or the holy spirit. Or just God or Jesus. I'm flexible like that.
June 22, 200420 yr Thank you. In fact my only problem is with labeling. And as for Sals comment. Who are YOU to say whats wrong and whats right. You're no one to make that kind of judgement and neither am I, and calling these people ignorant or saying that their beliefs are such seems to me like youy may be guilty of what you are accusing them of doing. I am the holy ghost. praise be yours almighty Thank you. You may also call me the father or the son. Or the holy spirit. Or just God or Jesus. I'm flexible like that. lol
June 23, 200420 yr MORE LINCOLN QUOTES: "The Autocrat of all the Russias will resign his crown, and proclaim his subjects free republicans sooner than will our American masters voluntarily give up their slaves." --From the August 15, 1855 Letter to George Robertson "The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes." --From the August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed "I believe this Government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free." --From the June 16, 1858 House Divided Speech "This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave." --From the April 6, 1859 Letter to Henry Pierce "One section of our country believes slavery is right, and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong, and ought not to be extended." --From the March 4, 1861 Inaugural Address "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling." --From the April 4, 1864 Letter to Albert Hodges "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy." --From the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln "Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. " --From the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln It is always a shame when we see a simplistic interpretation forced upon a complex individual.
June 23, 200420 yr haha...these deal with slavery...not necessarily racism. First of all, later in his presidency, Lincoln started speaking more positively about blacks....because he is a politician. Much like George Wallace, Lincoln may or may not have been an absolute racist, but did whatever would win him votes....and if Wallace were president, I'm sure he wouldn't be considered a top President. Anyway, back to Lincoln...Lincoln was 1) against extending slavery, not because he felt it was an evil system, but because it meant blacks moving west. Check out my 2nd point in the Lincoln quotes post. It also meant hurting white labor out there. And yes, slave-traders did have a bad rep. I mean, at least many slave-owners would take care of their slaves...I mean, they wanted them to work well right? Slave-traders simply bought and sold human beings for a living. I dont think Lincoln was going out on any limb by putting down slave-traders. As for his comments about this government not being able to survive half-slave half-free....that's how everyone in the country felt! Slavery was on it's way out anyway. The last 3 quotes you supply are later in his presidency, where he went "Wallace" a bit.
June 23, 200420 yr I mean, if needed, I can show you ACTIONS he did (as opposed to simply saying things)...such as presiding over the Illinois Colonization Society, his joke of an Emancipation Proclamation, hes protection of the Fugitive Slave Laws, etc.
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