Yeah that trade was horrible because Lo Duca wasn't much of an improvement in the lineup over Castro and Redmond.

 

Brad Penny is still the pitcher he used to be and is not an injury risk.

 

And Hee Seop Choi is good and can hit pitches other than a fastball.

 

Worst trade in Marlins history.

 

 

2005

LoDuca .283/.334/.380, 445 AB, 45 R, 6 HR, 57 RBI

Redmond/Castro .271/.335/.417, 357 AB, 45 R, 9 HR, 67 RBI

 

He wasn't an improvement. In fact, he was significantly WORSE, then what a Redmond/Castro platoon would do. I'm not saying Castro didn't need a change of scenary and could still have survived here, but it's mainly to point out LoDuca is just a solid - not spectacular catcher. We didn't gain anything with him except payroll. Willingham/Olivo are going to outproduce him this year for sure. FWIW to get back to the trade in general, I hated the trade when it happened because I don't like the Marlins ever trading youth for moderate to high priced veterans that are complimentary piece at best. I would much rather have Brad Penny and Choi then LoDuca, Encarnacion, Mota, and the additional $6-7 million dollars they cost in 2005.

To be fair, the bulk of Redmond's value that season came much earlier in the season. We were truly desperate for some offensive help from the catcher spot or elsewhere. Of course, LoDuca soon faded as bad as Redmond had, and neither LoDuca, Encarnacion or the loss of Choi helped the offense much, if at all.

 

However you make an excellent point about their salaries. The reason why the Dodgers were willing to trade them was for exactly that reason, they were due big raises and of replacable talent. I remember at the time trying to get my head around why the Dodgers, one of the bigggest brands in sports, would be so concerned about this while the small-revenue Marlins were not.

Sure, Lo Duca may not be the best second half player, but there aren't many catchers around that are better. If you expect Olivo to be the answer, you are crazy. He has no virtually no signs of promise. Willingham as the everyday catcher would interest me, but it sounds like the Marlins expect him to be the left fielder so that may not even be worth discussing.

 

 

Fair enough with 2004, but they didn't make the playoffs, Dodgers did, and it's still important to discuss long term impacts of significant trades. Can't just analyze the dodgers trade with only August and September of 2004. I think it was a really bad trade for the Marlins, and an average trade for the Dodgers. Nothing spectacular either way.

 

Also, where has it said anywhere the Marlins consider him a LF? Every MLB, sun sentinel, and other report talks about his ability to catch and how the team is hopeful he can play there. The only people who think he is a LF, is the people on this message board. This blurb was on ESPN today.

 

"Florida catching hopeful Josh Willingham, who could be a big sleeper for his power, will work extensively on his defense during spring training. Bench coach Gary Tuck, who will tutor Willingham, has worked with Jorge Posada in the past. All Willingham seemingly needs to overtake Miguel Olivo at catcher is to play adequate defense, which would let the Marlins get his possibly potent bat into a lineup that could desperately use any additional punch"

 

I mean, it's not just some articles discussing him as a catcher, it's every single one of them. He's going to catch 100+ games unless he is absolutely dreadful as a defensive catcher. I mean worse then Piazza dreadful.

...This blurb was on ESPN today.

 

"Florida catching hopeful Josh Willingham, who could be a big sleeper for his power, will work extensively on his defense during spring training. Bench coach Gary Tuck, who will tutor Willingham, has worked with Jorge Posada in the past. All Willingham seemingly needs to overtake Miguel Olivo at catcher is to play adequate defense, which would let the Marlins get his possibly potent bat into a lineup that could desperately use any additional punch"

 

 

If you actually research this blurb it appears to come from Rotowire rewriting a January 19th Joe Frisaro column on the state of catching for the 2006 Marlins. That same article, which includes all the components you quote, Tuck, Posada, etc., also indicates the catching job is Olivo's to lose.

 

I can't say with any certainty who will be the opening day catcher, and clearly the Marlins are trying desperately to get Willingham's bat into the lineup, and especially in a rebuilding year I think deservedly so, but right now penciling in Willingham as the opening day catcher is putting the cart before the horse*.

 

 

*tired cliche used just to make my dear friend Mr. Swift's day complete

*tired cliche used just to make my dear friend Mr. Swift's day complete

 

 

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

If you actually research this blurb it appears to come from Rotowire rewriting a January 19th Joe Frisaro column on the state of catching for the 2006 Marlins. That same article, which includes all the components you quote, Tuck, Posada, etc., also indicates the catching job is Olivo's to lose.

 

I can't say with any certainty who will be the opening day catcher, and clearly the Marlins are trying desperately to get Willingham's bat into the lineup, and especially in a rebuilding year I think deservedly so, but right now penciling in Willingham as the opening day catcher is putting the cart before the horse*.

 

 

*tired cliche used just to make my dear friend Mr. Swift's day complete

 

 

I don't think conducting a forensic investigation of the information trail of quotes is vital to the message. No one says Willingham is a LF starter. Everyone says he is being groomed as a catcher. He's going to play a lot there unless he is absolutely miserable defensively. And it doesn't seem Girardi will settle for that.

I'd rather see him in left.

 

:blink:

I don't think conducting a forensic investigation of the information trail of quotes is vital to the message. No one says Willingham is a LF starter. Everyone says he is being groomed as a catcher. He's going to play a lot there unless he is absolutely miserable defensively. And it doesn't seem Girardi will settle for that.

 

Lou, I didn't do it to embarrass you or disparage your post. I suspect though that the "blurb" author was injecting his or her own opinion (which may be based on fantasy draft picking) as opposed to faithfully paraphrasing Frisaro's column. BTW I enjoyed your "forensic investigation" line :thumbup but sometimes there's value in understanding the context or the rationale of the author that's being quoted.

I don't think conducting a forensic investigation of the information trail of quotes is vital to the message. No one says Willingham is a LF starter. Everyone says he is being groomed as a catcher. He's going to play a lot there unless he is absolutely miserable defensively. And it doesn't seem Girardi will settle for that.

 

Lou, I didn't do it to embarrass you or disparage your post. I suspect though that the "blurb" author was injecting his or her own opinion (which may be based on fantasy draft picking) as opposed to faithfully paraphrasing Frisaro's column. BTW I enjoyed your "forensic investigation" line :thumbup but sometimes there's value in understanding the context or the rationale of the author that's being quoted.

 

I didn't take it offensively, but seriously. I don't think this stuff has any hidden meaning or anything. I've read nothing that says the Marlins aren't giving him every benefit of the doubt to catch. We have no idea if he can catch or not. Maybe Girardi can turn him into an average defensive catcher, maybe not. It would be irresponsible of the Marlins to not work him at catcher for all of spring training and the first few months of 06, and then reassess where he is afterwards. You can always thrown him in left. He won't always have the opportunity to learn how to catch on a team that has no playoff expectations. His value as a baseball player skyrockets if he can catch. I know you agree with me that he should be given every opportunity to catch, but it just seems like a lot of people don't even want to give him the chance just because of the perception he is flat footed or whatever. Drives me nuts because you can always find a LF. Catchers with the offensive potential of Willingham don't exist this side of Vmart, Mauer, Varitek, or Posada.

It's hard to find good starting catcher talent. It's not hard to get good production from your series of catchers. It's when you have to reach out for the Matt Treanors, Pat Borders and Gary Bennett's to play 40-50 games, because you're paying your starter $6M a year to be nothing more than an average.

Definetly, but among starters, he's average

Definetly, but among starters, he's average

 

That's hard to argue because the only real standout catcher was Martinez. To a lesser extent Varitek.

 

You know, I used to agree with the thought that LoDuca was a worth-while investment and one of the three or four best catchers, but then I started looking at the numbers:

 

2003: .273, 7, 52

2004: LA: .301, 10, 49, FLA: .258, 3, 31 TOTAL: .286, 13, 80

2005: .283, 6, 57

 

Now, that kind of production is good enough out of the catcher's spot, but he wasn't really all that great defensively and he was really miscast with the Marlins (he really shouldn't be anything other than a 2-hole hitter).

 

Just quickly glancing at other players, LoDuca (at least since his 2001) has been league average, and if it weren't for his spectacular 2001 (.320, 25, 90) he probably would be regarded in the same way as Michael Barrett or Jason LaRue: steady but not a key offensive cog.

My way of looking at it is that the Marlins were faltering offensively and the catcher position was most susceptible to being changed. This is the black hole at the bottom of the lineup. I guess Gonzalez could have been moved, but that upgrade would most likely have cost even more. The Marlins did the smart thing and picked up a proven veteran catcher to fill that hole.

 

I think adding a .300-capable catcher gives a team an advantage over the rest of the National League. Unfortunately, Mike Lowell was atrocious, yet played consistently at the heart of the order.

 

 

Can't argue with any of that.

 

Hindsight being what it is, I think everyone involved would have simply left well enough alone with the LA trade, but even considering all of that I think we made out pretty well moving LoDuca when we did, and for what we did.

 

Sad to see him go, but his production likely won't be missed, and for a suddenly supremely cost-conscious team, I think that's all you can ask.

I just find it interesting that no one is attempting to argue that Choi and Penny should have stayed. I always liked Penny, but it was becoming obvious he was turning into damaged goods. I think Choi will be out of a job soon.

 

 

Penny is what he is, a supremely talented pitcher with no work ethic and a clear aversion to the weight room.

 

Knowing what we know now (that we'd lose Beckett and Burnett in the same offseason, and Pavano an offseason earlier), and knowing that the Marlins didn't want to trade Beckett so much as they didn't want to pay Lowell, I think had the Penny trade not happened and had he remained with the club for his final season of arbitration, there's a decent enough chance he could have stuck in the rotation with Willis (or possibly be the arm used to rid ourselves of Lowell).

 

Looking back, the trade really flat out sucked for both sides, but had it not gone down, I could see some positives coming from (at the least) Penny staying.

It makes you wonder though if the front office was expecting Pavano to be back at the season's end or if they simply thought they couldn't part with him during a penant race. I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

 

Combination of both. I think a lot of it came down to the Marlins figuring that Pavano would probably be easier to sign than Penny, and that a lot of teams probably were offering more for Penny than they were for Pavano.

 

Maybe it's just me, but if you substitute Pavano in for Penny in the LA trade, I just don't think that the Marlins come away with LoDuca and Mota, no matter what Pavano's numbers were like in '04.

Now, that kind of production is good enough out of the catcher's spot, but he wasn't really all that great defensively and he was really miscast with the Marlins (he really shouldn't be anything other than a 2-hole hitter).

 

Just quickly glancing at other players, LoDuca (at least since his 2001) has been league average, and if it weren't for his spectacular 2001 (.320, 25, 90) he probably would be regarded in the same way as Michael Barrett or Jason LaRue: steady but not a key offensive cog.

 

 

2005 Catcher OPS 350+ AB

1 Varitek .856

2 Vmart .853

3 Barret .824

4 LaRue .806

5 Mauer .783

.....

18 LoDuca .714 (.619 home, .797 road) (.638 in Dolphins stadium 2004)

 

Dolphins Stadium is kryptonite to Paul. Maybe he can a top 10 offensive catcher for someone else though cause .797 on the road is real good. Overall, he was below average for us the last 1 1/2 seasons. Not much more else to say.

 

Also not to really argue, but I was thinking about this because the Mets said they might bat him # 2. I wouldn't bat him there in a million years. I think he is a a great contact hitter, but he has never shown the high OBP to really solidify anything above 7th in an order (in non 2001 years). I really hope Randolph puts him in the 2 slot though so I can laugh as Reyes and LoDuca combine for a .330 OBP atop the Mets lineup and ruin RBI chances for their godly 3-4-5. Those two could single handedly destroy the Mets offense much how Pierre killed us all last year.

Also not to really argue, but I was thinking about this because the Mets said they might bat him # 2. I wouldn't bat him there in a million years. I think he is a a great contact hitter, but he has never shown the high OBP to really solidify anything above 7th in an order (in non 2001 years). I really hope Randolph puts him in the 2 slot though so I can laugh as Reyes and LoDuca combine for a .330 OBP atop the Mets lineup and ruin RBI chances for their godly 3-4-5. Those two could single handedly destroy the Mets offense much how Pierre killed us all last year.

 

 

I think Reyes at leadoff will kill that team more than LoDuca in the 2 hole. Beltran's more of a 2-hole hitter than a 3 or a 4, so, with all that, I present my totally revolutionary Mets lineup for 2006:

 

Beltran-CF

LoDuca-C

Delgado-1B

Wright-3B

Floyd-LF

Nady-RF

Reyes-SS

Matsui-2B

P

 

I see LoDuca as a #2 because of his almost non-existant strikeout totals and his tendencies to hit the ball hard to right making him an ideal hit and run executor.

 

But, again, this is personal preference, and I can't say I completely disagree that LoDuca should simply be relegated to the bottom of the lineup.

Definetly, but among starters, he's average

 

That's hard to argue because the only real standout catcher was Martinez. To a lesser extent Varitek.

To a point that is because of what players are allowed to become catchers and how they handle the strain of catching.

If he can do the job defensively behind the plate, Willingham at catcher is more of a plus than Willy in left field IMO. As a corner outfielder he'd probably be somewhere around the ML average. As a catcher his offensive output (if he hits the way we hope he can obviously) would be well above ML average.

 

However I don't think that advantage is worth putting an Eric Reed in center field. If we don't acquire anyone else to play the outfield and we're looking at Aguila in left and Reed in center.... I'd rather not see that. So if that's the case I would rather throw Olivo at catcher & see if he can produce, with Josh & Chris in the outfield.

The reason Willingham should play left-field is so he can get more at bats. If Willingham catches...he'll be lucky to play 130 games.....in left-field he can play 150.

The reason Willingham should play left-field is so he can get more at bats. If Willingham catches...he'll be lucky to play 130 games.....in left-field he can play 150.

 

 

Because 80 AB over the course of the year will severly stunt his longterm development. He needs to be given every opportunity to catch, and if he can't. There is always LF.

The reason Willingham should play left-field is so he can get more at bats. If Willingham catches...he'll be lucky to play 130 games.....in left-field he can play 150.

 

 

 

Willingham could very well play both C and LF and get all of his ABs.

1) Willingham's long term future starts right now......he's not a 20 year old.

2) Olivo is a better player than Aguila

3) A young pitching staff needs a catcher that is at least a decent defensive catcher and it will take Willingham a long time to just get there.

4) Joe Girardi is crazy to think he has a magic wand that he can wave and make a very bad catcher at least an average one.

5) Willingham needs to bat as many times as he can, because this offense will be weak.

6) Catchers don't play the OF on their days off.....they sit on the bench and rest......it's a tough job.

 

Personally, I don't think the argument that Willingham would be a great offensive catcher and an average LF. That is a really dumb argument......who cares about that. So you have a good offensive catcher and the absolute WORST LF in the major-leagues if Aguila plays out there.....how does that help the team?

Somethings wrong...

 

I cant believe I agree with Chum.

 

:confused

If Olivo is supposed to be the long term catcher I'm going to vomit.

 

Then if I were you I'd find myself a seasons worth of barf bags.