January 24, 200620 yr There's nothing out of context about what you said and please don't resort to insults. If you can't prove your point, do not make yourself look any worse by making childish remarks.
January 24, 200620 yr There's nothing out of context about what you said and please don't resort to insults. If you can't prove your point, do not make yourself look any worse by making childish remarks. How did I not prove that our bench sucked? Please, enlighten me.
January 24, 200620 yr Guys, do you really want to argue this? If the answer is yes, please do so through the board's private messenging system. Shall your post counts be docked for such frivilous debate.
January 24, 200620 yr :lol :lol If you count Robert Andino as part of our bench, then you have to count Hermida. Hermida had 41 ABs and Andino had 44 ABs. I am not saying the bench was good. Clearly, our whole team lacked power and the bench was no different. Our offense was lacking all around. I wouldn't say that you proved your point that the bench sucked by saying we only had two guys hit .300 or higher. What made them not as good as the other benches was the lack of power and RBIs.
January 24, 200620 yr :lol :lol If you count Robert Andino as part of our bench, then you have to count Hermida. Hermida had 41 ABs and Andino had 44 ABs. I am not saying the bench was good. Clearly, our whole team lacked power and the bench was no different. Our offense was lacking all around. I wouldn't say that you proved your point that the bench sucked by saying we only had two guys hit .300 or higher. What made them not as good as the other benches was the lack of power and RBIs. Whoopdee-do, take Andino out then. The whole point of my comment was that chum seemed to suggest that a bench that has only Helms and Harris as a reliable option is doomed to be substantially worse than what we had in 2005. In 2005, we were a two player bench team with Easley occasionally contributing. It looks like we're going to be the same thing in 2006.
January 24, 200620 yr We certainly don't have a deep bench as of right now. Heck, we don't even know what our bench will look like. I will reserve judgment until opening day. :lol :lol If you count Robert Andino as part of our bench, then you have to count Hermida. Hermida had 41 ABs and Andino had 44 ABs. I am not saying the bench was good. Clearly, our whole team lacked power and the bench was no different. Our offense was lacking all around. I wouldn't say that you proved your point that the bench sucked by saying we only had two guys hit .300 or higher. What made them not as good as the other benches was the lack of power and RBIs. Whoopdee-do, take Andino out then. The whole point of my comment was that chum seemed to suggest that a bench that has only Helms and Harris as a reliable option is doomed to be substantially worse than what we had in 2005. In 2005, we were a two player bench team with Easley occasionally contributing. It looks like we're going to be the same thing in 2006. Okay, fine. You specifically pointed out that the bench sucked because it only had two .300 hitters. That doesn't prove it sucked. In fact, that's pretty good. What sucked about the bench was the lack of power and RBI's. fishguy was just pointing out your usually faulty logical reasoning.
January 24, 200620 yr You just described one of the worst, if not the worst, bullpens in baseball. That is light years from "really good, solid." It may not look good, but names alone do not a bullpen make. Names? Alfonseca, Mota, Mecir, Jones, Riedling, Villone, Valdez.... How'd that bullpen work out? And you know very well they're not spending a bunch of money on relievers when they didn't spend any money at other positions.
January 24, 200620 yr You just described one of the worst, if not the worst, bullpens in baseball. That is light years from "really good, solid." It may not look good, but names alone do not a bullpen make. Names? Alfonseca, Mota, Mecir, Jones, Riedling, Villone, Valdez.... How'd that bullpen work out? And you know very well they're not spending a bunch of money on relievers when they didn't spend any money at other positions. Messenger, Kensing, and Bump are batting practice. Ligtenberg hasn't pitched good in two years. I like Bowyer, Resop, Tankersly, and all the young arms that will split time between SP/RP, but you have got to be kidding yourself if you think this bullpen, or pitching staff, is going to be "really good" or "solid." If anyone besides Willis posts an era under 4.00 with over 50 IP of work, I will be thrilled. Tons of potential, but probably won't see it until 07/08. All I am hoping for is solid progression from all of the pitchers and they look a lot better in the second half as they become more comfortable with greater competition at the MLB level.
January 24, 200620 yr To get back to subject at hand, I do believe by the time spring training ends there will be several moves that may alter dramatically who's in the opening day lineup. Cincy just fired their GM and desperately needs young pitching. The D'Rays may not be done talking about moving one of their surplus outfielders for young pitching. Colletti may have balked at Bengie Molina's asking price as of this writing, but that doesn't mean Molina might not wind up there and if so either Martin or Navarro is going to be traded and I suspect Navarro becomes available. In short, none of us knows what trades Beinfest is actively persuing or what may happen with other teams. I for one am optimistic we'll field a better team in April than people are constructing today.
January 24, 200620 yr Author No, I asked you to show me a team with a bench containing MORE than TWO .300+ hitters on it since you implied that was a LOW amount. get it? Let's take a look at bench production from the other NL East teams: Atlanta: Ryan Langerhans: .267, 8, 42 Wilson Betemit: .305, 4, 20 Julio Franco: .275, 9, 42 Brian Jordan: .247, 3, 24 Brian McCann: .278, 5, 23 Pete Orr: .300, 1, 8 Raul Mondesi: .211, 4, 17 Philly: Jason Michaels: .304, 4, 31 Jim Thome: .201, 7, 30 Todd Pratt: .251, 7, 23 Tomas Perez: .233, 0, 22 Placido Polanco: .316, 3, 20 Ramon Martinez: .286, 1, 9 Marlon Byrd: .308, 0, 0 NY Mets: Victor Diaz: .257, 12, 38 Mike Jacobs: .310, 11, 23 Marlon Anderson: .264, 7, 19 Ramon Castro: .244, 8, 41 Chris Woodward: .283, 3, 18 Notice something, all those benches outhomered and out RBI'd the Marlins bench, and they all had higher total bench averages than the Marlins. After Harris and Conine, the Marlins didn't have a guy over .244. Still care to call that a good bench? And stop putting words in my mouth, I was simply showing that it was foolish for the original poster to suggest that our 2005 bench was the stuff of legendary, or even league average production. I never said the Marlins bench was even average last year, but it's alot better than what they have lined up for this year. Lenny Harris is an old man that has barely hit .200 the two years before last year, and at any time can start to show his age. Easley's value was way higher than his batting average. Whoever said the Uggla would match Easley's production has been smoking a little too much of the "sweet leaf". Rule 5 guys are usually really productive as rookies.
January 24, 200620 yr Seriously who the hell knew any more than one of the members to be a good pitcher in the January before the 2002-4 seasons by the Angels bullpen or 2005 Nationals or Padres bullpen? The best relief corps of recent years have been a collection of has-beens, never-weres and once completly unknown and bit prospects. These guys the Marlins have wouldn't have gotten signed to professional contracts and progressed this far if they didn't have some amount of talent. Now it's up to them and their manager and coaches to put them in a position to help the team.
January 24, 200620 yr These guys the Marlins have wouldn't have gotten signed to professional contracts and progressed this far if they didn't have some amount of talent. Now it's up to them and their manager and coaches to put them in a position to help the team.
January 24, 200620 yr Guys, do you really want to argue this? If the answer is yes, please do so through the board's private messenging system. Shall your post counts be docked for such frivilous debate. The best part of this thread is TSwift's sig with Scarlett... Damn, keep arguing - please! :thumbup
January 24, 200620 yr Bullpens are usually hit or miss. Look how many established relief pitchers have faded away to virtual nothingness. Look at how many nobodies have become established relievers... You can hardly determine an accurate prediction for a teams bullpen. And nobody should be expected to.
January 24, 200620 yr Author I have looked at every teams projected bullpen and I'm very confident to say.....the Marlins will have the worst bullpen in baseball without a doubt. I hope I'm wrong by this statement, but I doubt it.
January 24, 200620 yr You just described one of the worst, if not the worst, bullpens in baseball. That is light years from "really good, solid." It may not look good, but names alone do not a bullpen make. Names? Alfonseca, Mota, Mecir, Jones, Riedling, Villone, Valdez.... How'd that bullpen work out? And you know very well they're not spending a bunch of money on relievers when they didn't spend any money at other positions. Messenger, Kensing, and Bump are batting practice. Ligtenberg hasn't pitched good in two years. I like Bowyer, Resop, Tankersly, and all the young arms that will split time between SP/RP, but you have got to be kidding yourself if you think this bullpen, or pitching staff, is going to be "really good" or "solid." If anyone besides Willis posts an era under 4.00 with over 50 IP of work, I will be thrilled. Tons of potential, but probably won't see it until 07/08. All I am hoping for is solid progression from all of the pitchers and they look a lot better in the second half as they become more comfortable with greater competition at the MLB level. They'll be bad if halfway through the season they're all putting up 5+ ERAs. Until then they're simply young & unproven. I certainly don't know that they won't be decent. I wouldn't bet on it, but like RFerry said, good bullpen arms often come out of nowhere. It's not always done by signing "pricey" arms that just as often flop. Everyone wanted Jorge Julio a few years ago. Everyone was excited about Mota. As you said, all I'm hoping for is that several of them can show some solid progression. And Nate Bump isn't batting practice. :mad I have looked at every teams projected bullpen and I'm very confident to say.....the Marlins will have the worst bullpen in baseball without a doubt. I hope I'm wrong by this statement, but I doubt it. great. so we won't be any worse than last year. :thumbup
January 24, 200620 yr A side benefit of not having pricey veteran arms with recognized names is that when guys are as bad as John Reidling was last year or unable to pitch at the major league level as Alfonseca was not when hiding injuries or not ready for the show, the club will not hesitate to put them in a position to help the players and the club, now and in the future, whether that means they're given more or less responsibilities or sent packing to the minors, home or another team. As it stands we have a number of contenders for the job. Girardi and Beinfest will have an incredibly tough task deciding what is everyone's best interests.
January 24, 200620 yr I think it's ludicrous to judge our bullpen when most of you have never seen any of them pitch.
January 24, 200620 yr They'll be bad if halfway through the season they're all putting up 5+ ERAs. Until then they're simply young & unproven. I certainly don't know that they won't be decent. I wouldn't bet on it, but like RFerry said, good bullpen arms often come out of nowhere. It's not always done by signing "pricey" arms that just as often flop. Everyone wanted Jorge Julio a few years ago. Everyone was excited about Mota. As you said, all I'm hoping for is that several of them can show some solid progression. And Nate Bump isn't batting practice. :mad I have looked at every teams projected bullpen and I'm very confident to say.....the Marlins will have the worst bullpen in baseball without a doubt. I hope I'm wrong by this statement, but I doubt it. great. so we won't be any worse than last year. :thumbup I never wanted Julio. Everyone wasn't excited about Mota. I thought the trade with the Dodgers was AWFUL from day 1, but I do not feel like arguing that now. I never advocated signing "pricey" arms. All I am saying is, someone above said the bullpen is going to be "pretty good, solid," and the chances of that happening are slim to none. Bump has a career 1.53 whip and whiffs 4.8 per 9. That is batting practice. I like Bowyer and Resop's potential, but I don't see them developing into Linebrink and Street right now. I agree with your second point though, the bullpen can't be any worse then last year. We will see a lot of them because the starters won't be getting past the 6th very much, so let's hope a few of them are atleast league-average.
January 24, 200620 yr Everyone wasn't excited about Mota. I thought the trade with the Dodgers was AWFUL from day 1, but I do not feel like arguing that now. Ah, see we do agree on some things. :thumbup
January 24, 200620 yr Everyone wasn't excited about Mota. I thought the trade with the Dodgers was AWFUL from day 1, but I do not feel like arguing that now. Ah, see we do agree on some things. :thumbup While I agree the LA trade was awful, I think most of us still expected Mota to be lights out oops
January 24, 200620 yr Oh jeez I remember everyone saying how we stole the NL pennant from the Dodgers after that trade.
January 24, 200620 yr I've always said the Dodgers trade was AWFUL, check back posts, and I was bashed. Penny was one hell of a pitcher man! Bad trade!!!!
January 24, 200620 yr You can't argue against the ring (ok, pennant)! Penny and Choi have theirs, where's LoDuca and Mota's? Scrubs, I tell ya!
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