what, the stadium won't help redevelop the wharehouse district and add another draw to the cities for the summer months which would provide public benefit?!

what, the stadium won't help redevelop the wharehouse district and add another draw to the cities for the summer months which would provide public benefit?!

Again, it doesn't matter. More teams need to take the responsibility to pay for all or a larger percentage of their new parks. We're not talking about mom and pop shops just scraping by here.

 

Speaking of which, when is the last time legislation was passed to raise taxes to help subsidize mom and pop shops to help revitalize a warehouse district creating [not relocating] hundreds of new jobs in the area which provide a public benefit?

 

I guess I simply have no pity when it comes to Corporate Wellfare. So sue me.

mom & pop shops don't bring that great of an impact - greater impact, greater relief (or competition to bring them in)

 

i'm not a fan of taxes in general and really not a fan of corporate welfare, but they do exist - I would rather see a municipality make an effort to bring in a viable economic benefit, than just let it walk away

 

it sucks, but sometimes you have to take the bad with the good

Good news, now the focus turns to Miami. DO IT!

what, the stadium won't help redevelop the wharehouse district and add another draw to the cities for the summer months which would provide public benefit?!

Again, it doesn't matter. More teams need to take the responsibility to pay for all or a larger percentage of their new parks. We're not talking about mom and pop shops just scraping by here.

 

Speaking of which, when is the last time legislation was passed to raise taxes to help subsidize mom and pop shops to help revitalize a warehouse district creating [not relocating] hundreds of new jobs in the area which provide a public benefit?

 

I guess I simply have no pity when it comes to Corporate Wellfare. So sue me.

 

also the twins owner is the richest in baseball. they need to start spending some money instead of pocketing and expecting everyone else to foot their bill. in some circles, it's called freeloading, and i'm sick of some of the richest people just not spending any cash and expecting us to pay.

 

i commend the yankees and giants for paying for their own stadiums instead of making the public paying for them.

mom & pop shops don't bring that great of an impact - greater impact, greater relief (or competition to bring them in)

I think it is easy to underestimate the value of a mom and pop shop. If you look at the economic devastation born upon communities ill prepared for the introduction of corporate giants like Wal-Mart, I think it is clear to see the value of these smaller businesses. More importantly, if an area is too reliant upon a single business for their economic viability, they take on a heavy risk of becoming subservient to the whims of that entity and further economic disaster should that entity leave town. Just look at Flint, MI with the automotive plant closings or Schenectady, NY with GE moving manufacturing centers to India and China for examples of town absolutely devastated by the sudden abandonment of their respective businesses. A business has no loyalty.

 

How many years will it be before talk of contracting or relocating the Twins begins anew?

 

I?m with furcalchick on this one. Call it ?freeloading? or ?corporate welfare? or ?trickle down economics? or something else, but there are far too many examples of this strategy absolutely blowing up in the faces of the very constituents presupposed to be assisted by these actions. I maintain my :thumbdown opinion on this matter.

i'm not saying they have no value - but they can also benefit from something like this

 

all the mom & pop shops in downtown glendale have had a great boon from the stadiums

 

also, states often act idiotically and force businesses out - NY is terrible at this - they make it so unattractive to do business there that the big company leaves, and the small mom & pop shops are dead without them

 

you need draws to bring smart people to an area - with that comes the businesses to support the people - the pizza shops, electronic stores, clothiers, home decorations, real estate, etc

*Update*

 

http://www.startribune.com/509/story/952963.html

 

Hennepin County District Judge Stephen Aldrich, in a court order signed Monday, authorized the county's condemnation of the property and said the $522 million, open-air stadium served a "public purpose" under the law. The judge also said the county could obtain the property through a so-called "quick take", providing the county deposited the $13.35 million with the court.

 

County officials however said they are still hoping to reach a sale agreement without proceeding with the condemnation because the process would likely take too long and bind the county to a price arrived at by the court that could be considerably higher than what the county has available.

 

 

 

As an aside, I just want everyone to know that this thread was started well last year but that I am reusing it to keep folks updated on what is happening up there, as my way of informing and educating people on stories similar to what's going on in South Florida. This way, I don't have to start another thread on what's really a continuation on one subject.

 

OK, that out of the way, maybe there would be a compromise solution and, therefore, the thread title won't look silly as a result.

*Update*

http://www.startribune.com/509/story/952963.html

Which makes my objection even stronger. Any time a district uses eminent domain to STEAL land it drives me up a wall. This is the most egregious violation of a person's civil rights by a government and completely offends the core of my libertarian ideology.

 

also, states often act idiotically and force businesses out - NY is terrible at this - they make it so unattractive to do business there that the big company leaves, and the small mom & pop shops are dead without them

GE was not even paying taxes on the land they used. The manufacturing portions of GE [which represented the greatest majority of the employees] were outsourced to foreign companies for the same reasons everyone else has started outsourcing - money. Why should GE pay a union worker $12/hour to manufacture a light bulb when some 10 year old in China will work a 60 hour week for $6 total?

 

Also, while you are trying to denigrate NY's ability to attract business, bear in mind that this state has gone from the number 12 technology state to the number 3 technology state over the past 5 years. As a recent example, Vistec Semiconductor Systems is CURRENTLY in the process of relocating their corporate headquarters from Cambridge England to NY's Capitol District in order to take advantage of the massive growth in high-tech research being performed in the Albany area. http://www.vistec-semi.com/website/mie.nsf...125721b002b65ba

 

They now join other technology companies in the area that you MAY have heard of; IBM, GE, SEMATECH, AMAT, ASML, Tokyo Electron, AMD, Micron, and Commerce Hub - and those are just the tenants at my site. Here's a list of some of our other partners: http://www.cnse.albany.edu/business_resources/partners.html

 

Speaking of which; companies like Plug Power [developing fuel cell technology] and IBM [manufacturers of the chip that drives the Wii, the PS3, AND the Xbox] are drawn to the area due to the stellar educational institutions available in NYS and often form partnerships with these institutions. Perhaps you have heard of Cornell [ivy League], Columbia, [ivy League], RPI, NYU, RIT, Ithaca, etc. I'm guessing many of you have never heard or are just becoming aware of a new school in NY, the College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering. The important thing is that business know about it because, in our 4th year of existence, we were just rated the #1 school in the world for nanotechnology education, beating MIT, UPenn, Cornell [another NY school], UC Berkley, and everyone else. Linkage: http://cnse.albany.edu/downloads/Small%20T...June%202006.pdf

 

So, in summary, I believe that your assessment of NY's ability to draw and maintain business is erroneous.

 

Further, if you would like an example of the types of problems raised when communities are destroyed via eminent domain look no further than the grand daddy of them all, Robert Moses.

when was the last time you've been to rochester, elmira, binghamton, buffalo, syracuse, jamestown, corning - go ask those people how great NY is doing at fostering business - talk to the people working for phillips, polly-o, mercury, bausch & laumb, kodak, xerox, etc how great NY has been treating them

 

go to any of the small upstate towns that have seen thier local factories pretty much shut down due to increased taxation and pressures from the state

 

the city may be doing fine, but the state is dying - there is a major brain drain going on up there - main reason I had to get out

 

I'm finger lakes born & bred and although NY has some amazing schools (both private & public) and amazing places - it's dying and it's very obvious to see

when was the last time you've been to rochester, elmira, binghamton, buffalo, syracuse, jamestown, corning - go ask those people how great NY is doing at fostering business - talk to the people working for phillips, polly-o, mercury, bausch & laumb, kodak, xerox, etc how great NY has been treating them

 

go to any of the small upstate towns that have seen thier local factories pretty much shut down due to increased taxation and pressures from the state

 

the city may be doing fine, but the state is dying - there is a major brain drain going on up there - main reason I had to get out

 

I'm finger lakes born & bred and although NY has some amazing schools (both private & public) and amazing places - it's dying and it's very obvious to see

You just proved my point. Half of the places you mentioned blossomed as a result of the canal project. Then, they stayed in the game thanks to the railroad. The other half rode the coat tails of the steel and automotive industries. Now, as with the rest of America, manufacturing jobs are leaving and the steel industry is basically nonexistent. Don't even get me started on the domestic automotive industry! That is a national trend, not a state trend.

 

What is happening in Buffalo today? They are drawing in businesses that focus on research in bioinformatics and genomics. Is it a bad thing that $10 per hour factory jobs are being replaced with $50 per hour research jobs? It will take another 10 years to see the true impact of this shift in labor. You can see a similar pattern in Rochester and Syracuse.

 

If you look at Jamestown and Elmira, you see two small cities [what? 50,000 combined?] that relied too heavily on their manufacturing jobs [especially automotive manufacturing jobs ? Cummins diesel, for example] and have not adapted to the economic shift yet.

 

Do you have a specific example of a company that left NY as a direct result of some legislation?

what policy changes have been done to bring in diverse employment options? There is no incentive to open up shop in most of upstate NY

 

there have been many studies that show upstate is dying a slow death while albany does very little - it is true about what you say from manufacturing, but if you look at companies like IBM, Xerox, Kodak, Corning Inc they have all struggled to do business in NY and most of these are moving more resources to offices outside the state (and have been for years)

 

The entire rust belt and most of the great lakes region has a similar economic makeup, however they've responded to the service industry shift in a much better fashion - this shift has been going on for decades, others have adapted and are growing - NY stagnates and dies

 

there needed to be plans in place 10 years ago to deal with today and although things are getting better in diversification it is still lagging behind what others are doing - healthcare and tech are going to play a big part in this - however there still needs to be immediate relief - you can't let the whole thing continue to die for 10 years and expect a miracle from a couple of initiatives - by that time it will be too late

 

upstate NY has poor population growth and an incredible intellectual flight - with the quality of schools in upstate NY it's a shame that there has never been a synergy to keep those students in state and build something great

 

in my admittedly biased belief I feel that upstate NY has more natural advantages than places like ohio, indiana, michigan, illinois, etc and hate that all these places are outpacing the state

 

it's not dumb luck or coincidence either - it's years or bad planning, short sightedness and influencing policy toward the city and just trying to band-aid upstate

 

bottom line is the economy is lagging behind others of a similar historic composure

We will have to agree to disagree. You have given no evidence to substantiate your claims so I have nothing to refute.

 

My whole argument, bringing us back on topic, is that denizens of the Twin Cities will end up paying for that Stadium in more ways than one. They are paying for it outright via an increase in taxes then will continue to pay for it through ticket sales, tax breaks for the Twins, cost sharing on energy bills, etc. Later, what is to become of the area when the Twins are moved to Vegas or build a new stadium somewhere else? I'm guessing the ball club will not be leaving much in terms of a severance package.

 

I think that the Marlins would do better to take a page out of the book of the NY sports franchises and fund their own stadium rather than go the route of the Twins. Florida sports, outside of collegiate sports for some reason, simply don't have the requisite fan base to get something like this done. They have the resources, just not an owner with the drive to get it done.

I just want to say that if you find it offensive to see renderings of yet another team's new park while the Marlins languish in getting theirs, you may turn away or go to another thread. I'm hopeful most won't mind, though. :mischief At least I'm giving you a heads-up...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry I had to do this but you'd understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5711/eventlevelplanix4.jpg

 

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5048/viewlevelplancn4.jpg

 

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/8038/siteplanwp2.jpg

 

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5808/citysiteplanut3.jpg

 

Local story on the unveiling, including a video: http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_102120223.html

Maybe someday soon we'll have one of our own.

I have no idea how they are ever going to play a game there in October.

 

A state like Minnesota needs a retractable roof.

I really don't like it. Seems way too big and the fans are just too far away from the action...

42K capacity would put it around the smallest 10 parks in the majors.

they should have put the people as wearing mittens, hats, heavy coats, ski masks etc.

 

 

not like pohland has no money lying around anyway. put a fricken retractable roof on that thing, then you can have the sunshine on those pretty days in the summer and still not have miserable weather in the beginning and end of the seasons.

If they can fit a great new Twin's ballpark on 8 acres, why then can't they fit a great new Marlins ballpark on 9-10 acres?

 

http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/t...=2&a=290495

 

It looks like it can be done!

It's pre-construction budgeted cost is 522 million.

For a stadium with no roof. Fixed or retractable.

In a warehouse district part of Minneapolis.

And we're led to believe that one can build a stadium here for 490 million?

With a retractable roof.

In Miami, downtown district.

Miamibaseball....it's time to worry.

I'm wondering if that price includes land cost or not. Remember, the 490 million excludes any land cost (the Marlins expect the land to be donated). But we all know the history of projects in Miami-Dade county coming in over budget. What ever the case, a ballpark can fit on at least 8 acrres.

42K capacity would put it around the smallest 10 parks in the majors.

 

 

Seating capacity has little to do with how 'cozy' a ballpark is.

 

Look how far away the 1st base side is from the field, and it seems so high...

 

I count 6 levels in this picture:

two things here.

 

1. i really think the twins should have a canopy type roof like the mariners do with the snow and such (see cleveland), the vikings should be outside though, get out of a dome. domes are sort of lame to me, but at least have protection.

 

2. it seems like all of the new stadiums look like clones of each other. it's just instead of the cookie cutter stadiums we saw back in 60's-80's, we're seeing a new wave of bland retro stadiums that have little uniqueness between each other (few exceptions include at&t park, oriole park, ballpark in arlington and pnc/petco park to a degree). these retro parks aren't really new and unique, it's this generation's cookie cutter in disguise. i'm hoping the marlins stadium isn't trap to this, and really takes full advantage of south florida.

Also, judging by that picture Godfather, there's no concessions on the entire club level. I'd hate having to walk to another level to find a soda.