f*** it, its illegal to knock mailboxes off with bats, and its illegal to deface money. It is illegal to decafe public property. If you burn the flag, it should be a federal offense. If you don't like the US, do something productive, burning the flag is goddamn stupid, and disrespectful to the men and women who have died defending it and everyone else. f*** the motherf***ers who burn the flag, and f*** you if you believe that thats ok.

 

Disrepecting the acting president, and calling him dumb or incompetant, is one thing, because its true in your eyes. But f*** it, I'm kinda drunk.

 

 

 

drunk as he may be this may bring about a valid point. We need to differentiate b/w defacing money and burning the flag. The main diference IMO is as long as you own the flag youre burning, youre not doing anything illegal.

 

Well, duh. If you burn someone elses money it's vandalism.

 

Burning the flag is no detriment to those who have died. Come on, let's all grow up here. They didn't die "for" the flag.

 

To disallow people to burn flags is to spit in the face of the same spirit of protest that started with the fathers of the Revolution.

 

 

 

Burning someone's money would be theft because you would be permanently depriving them of their money.

 

If you burned someone's money equal to or greater than $300.00 is would be grand theft. :thumbup

.Come on, let's all grow up here. They didn't die "for" the flag.

 

To disallow people to burn flags is to spit in the face of the same spirit of protest that started with the fathers of the Revolution.

 

It is too complicated for some people. To these people, the flag is exactly the same as the Marlins logo. It is something they can identify with. It is something they fight for the way a Seminoles fan would fight a Gators fan if he burned a FSU flag. They have no idea what principles our country was built on or why people fought for revolution- why buring a flag at its barest is the epitomy of that.

 

They just cant understand that telling another person that he can't conduct any form of political protest he wants is a basic unAmerican principle.

 

*to the ignorant, Im not saying I want to burn a flag. Just that free speech is important.

f*** it, its illegal to knock mailboxes off with bats, and its illegal to deface money. It is illegal to decafe public property. If you burn the flag, it should be a federal offense. If you don't like the US, do something productive, burning the flag is goddamn stupid, and disrespectful to the men and women who have died defending it and everyone else. f*** the motherf***ers who burn the flag, and f*** you if you believe that thats ok.

 

Disrepecting the acting president, and calling him dumb or incompetant, is one thing, because its true in your eyes. But f*** it, I'm kinda drunk.

 

 

 

drunk as he may be this may bring about a valid point. We need to differentiate b/w defacing money and burning the flag. The main diference IMO is as long as you own the flag youre burning, youre not doing anything illegal.

 

Well, duh. If you burn someone elses money it's vandalism.

 

Burning the flag is no detriment to those who have died. Come on, let's all grow up here. They didn't die "for" the flag.

 

To disallow people to burn flags is to spit in the face of the same spirit of protest that started with the fathers of the Revolution.

 

 

 

Burning someone's money would be theft because you would be permanently depriving them of their money.

 

If you burned someone's money equal to or greater than $300.00 is would be grand theft. :thumbup

 

Heh, I meant flag.

 

D'OH

 

 

Burning the flag is no detriment to those who have died. Come on, let's all grow up here. They didn't die "for" the flag.

 

 

You are beyond ignorant.

 

No one has literally died for a flag. They've died because they followed orders, because of American policy, but to say someone died for a flag is ignorant. If someone shoots a flag with bullets (which is a really funny mental picture) no one's going to jump in front of the flag to protect it.

 

. Come on, let's all grow up here. They didn't die "for" the flag.

 

To disallow people to burn flags is to spit in the face of the same spirit of protest that started with the fathers of the Revolution.

 

It is too complicated for some people. To these people, the flag is exactly the same as the Marlins logo. It is something they can identify with. It is something they fight for the way a Seminoles fan would fight a Gators fan if he burned a FSU flag. They have no idea what principles our country was built on or why people fought for revolution- why buring a flag at its barest is the epitomy of that.

 

They just cant understand that telling another person that he can't conduct any form of political protest he wants is a basic unAmerican principle.

 

*to the ignorant, Im not saying I want to burn a flag. Just that free speech is important.

 

Exactly.

Ever heard of the American Revolution, Buckeye?

Ever heard of the American Revolution, Buckeye?

They didn't die for the flag. They died for the government which the flag represents. A government that allows freedom of expression. So, by syllogism, they died for our right to expression, which encompasses the right to burn a piece of cloth if we so choose and we own that cloth.

Freedom of speech is one of the most important rights we have as americans. Agreed? However, it's when your right to do so violates someone elses rights, thats when it becomes wrong. You have the right to go to a public square and talk about why Mexicans shouldnt be allowed in the country, but when you start calling them spics, w******s or whathave you, then its wrong. If you want to burn the flag in your own house, ok, thats you. You want to go outside to a public square and talk about how much george bush sucks, and how much america sucks, go for it. But if you burn the flag, your essentially showing great disrespect to what it stands for.

 

The Flag is a piece of cloth right? Negative. It's a symbol. A symbol of our heritage, a symbol for democracy and a symbol for free people. It also represents the men and women who have died for those principles. Men who fought in the revolutionary war all the way to this second war with iraq. Burning the flag is like burning a picture of someone who died, in front of their parents. It's not illegal, but it'll probably cause someone to get hurt. And thats one of the reasons thie whole flag burning thing should be made illegal. Too many people get angry over burning the flag, and it starts fights or riots. Because If I see someone burning the flag, bet your life Im going to fight them. I'll make them understand what it means to love your country and the people who life there, because sometimes your kids need a spanking to understand whats good for them.

Ever heard of the American Revolution, Buckeye?

 

 

 

:lol :lol :lol

No one has literally died for a flag. They've died because they followed orders, because of American policy, but to say someone died for a flag is ignorant. If someone shoots a flag with bullets (which is a really funny mental picture) no one's going to jump in front of the flag to protect it.

 

oes the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?

Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

 

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or

spit on it to make some sort of "statement", I say let them do it.

BUT UNDER ONE CONDITION:

They MUST get permission from three sponsors.

 

 

First, you need permission of a war veteran, perhaps a Marine who

fought at Iwo Jima for starters ....

 

The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of

thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of

everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a

bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

 

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy

cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a

nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody

dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country.

 

That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother,

your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home.

 

I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn

the American flag?

 

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters

may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty

and misery.

Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores. Some

have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own

government for daring to do things we take for granted every day.

 

For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an

American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they

Pledge Allegiance the first time?

Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of

pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally

embrace the American flag as their own.

Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

 

Last, you should get the signature of a mother, not just any mother ....

You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't

even have to be from a war. It could be a cop, or a fireman, maybe a

Secret Service or NSA Agent.

Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well.

When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one

gift by the American people, an American flag.

Go on, I dare you, ask that mother to spit on her flag or burn it.

 

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they

drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag

young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They

also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. I meant a noose

snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something

to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the

purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom.

Something worth living for. Something worth dying for.

 

I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their

flag in a mud puddle?

 

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of

overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag

inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise,

the American vision ...

 

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation.

And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag.

Those who fought, fought for that flag.

Those who died, died for that flag.

And those who love America, love that flag, and defend it.

 

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or

before you burn it ... I have a simple request:

 

Just Ask Permission

NOT from the Constitution

NOT from some obscure law

NOT from the politicians or the pundits

 

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in

the American dream. And ask those who clutch the flag in place of their

sacrificed sons and daughters, husbands and wives

who defended this Great Country so that others may be free.

 

Go on, I dare you, ask the above to spit on their flag or burn it.

 

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing

they could, just once, or once again, see, touch or kiss the flag.

They gave their lives defending it, the flag that stands for our Great Nation

The United States of America ...

"The Greatest Nation On Earth"

 

http://vet2.tripod.com/

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy

cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a

nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody

dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country.

 

Vietnam...a country that to my knowledge never attacked the US. Also, I don't recall any of Kim Il Sung's boys sneaking on to our shores. either. Funny you talk about bloody dictators...the names Somoza and Pinochet ring a bell? After all, the USA helped put them in power...

 

Should we ask the CIA soldiers who installed Pinochet and propped up people like Somoza and the born-again butcher Efrain Rios Montt of Guatemala?

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy

cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a

nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody

dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country.

 

Vietnam...a country that to my knowledge never attacked the US. Also, I don't recall any of Kim Il Sung's boys sneaking on to our shores. either. Funny you talk about bloody dictators...the names Somoza and Pinochet ring a bell? After all, the USA helped put them in power...

 

Should we ask the CIA soldiers who installed Pinochet and propped up people like Somoza and the born-again butcher Efrain Rios Montt of Guatemala?

 

 

My point was like a train heading to jersey. You are a person who had a ticket to jersey on that train. You f***ing missed it.

Ever heard of the American Revolution, Buckeye?

They didn't die for the flag. They died for the government which the flag represents. A government that allows freedom of expression. So, by syllogism, they died for our right to expression, which encompasses the right to burn a piece of cloth if we so choose and we own that cloth.

 

They fought and died for the country, and the flag represents the country. The government which the flag represents wasn't in existence at that time - that flag is all we had to fight for during the Revolution.

Freedom of speech is one of the most important rights we have as americans. Agreed? However, it's when your right to do so violates someone elses rights, thats when it becomes wrong. You have the right to go to a public square and talk about why Mexicans shouldnt be allowed in the country, but when you start calling them spics, w******s or whathave you, then its wrong. If you want to burn the flag in your own house, ok, thats you. You want to go outside to a public square and talk about how much george bush sucks, and how much america sucks, go for it. But if you burn the flag, your essentially showing great disrespect to what it stands for.

 

Actually, you do have the right to go into the streets and scream racial insults. The KKK had the right to march in the streets and have a parade. They also have the right to burn a cross in a field. We don't regulate speech because we dont like the content.

 

The Flag is a piece of cloth right? Negative. It's a symbol. A symbol of our heritage, a symbol for democracy and a symbol for free people.

 

But what freedom do people have if they cant attack a symbol in any way they choose?

 

Burning the flag is like burning a picture of someone who died, in front of their parents. It's not illegal, but it'll probably cause someone to get hurt. And thats one of the reasons thie whole flag burning thing should be made illegal. Too many people get angry over burning the flag, and it starts fights or riots. Because If I see someone burning the flag, bet your life Im going to fight them. I'll make them understand what it means to love your country and the people who life there, because sometimes your kids need a spanking to understand whats good for them.

 

Youre mixing up different speech. You arent protected where you act to insult a specific person with specific words that make people tend to want to fight. But the fighting word exception has never been held to political speech and it is extremely narrow and rarely punishable. Look at it this way-if someone saw a person with a Kerry sucks sign in their yard, and went ballistic the way you want to, we dont supress the speech because others cant control themselves.

The Flag is a piece of cloth right? Negative. It's a symbol. A symbol of our heritage, a symbol for democracy and a symbol for free people. It also represents the men and women who have died for those principles. Men who fought in the revolutionary war all the way to this second war with iraq. Burning the flag is like burning a picture of someone who died, in front of their parents. It's not illegal, but it'll probably cause someone to get hurt. And thats one of the reasons thie whole flag burning thing should be made illegal. Too many people get angry over burning the flag, and it starts fights or riots. Because If I see someone burning the flag, bet your life Im going to fight them. I'll make them understand what it means to love your country and the people who life there, because sometimes your kids need a spanking to understand whats good for them.

 

 

But thats often what the people who burn the flag want to do, they want to get that exact type of response.

 

 

The flag represents all you have mentioned, it also represents the freedom to express yourself freely, and if someone wants to burn a United States flag, then they have that right.

 

Is it wrong? You bet your sweet ass.

 

Is it illegal? No. And it should never become illegal. We are above setting laws like that which other countries may or may not have (too lazy to look it up).

 

By fighing someone that has burned the flag they have won. It's really that simple.

Ever heard of the American Revolution, Buckeye?

They didn't die for the flag. They died for the government which the flag represents. A government that allows freedom of expression. So, by syllogism, they died for our right to expression, which encompasses the right to burn a piece of cloth if we so choose and we own that cloth.

 

They fought and died for the country, and the flag represents the country. The government which the flag represents wasn't in existence at that time - that flag is all we had to fight for during the Revolution.

What is a country if not the principles it stands for? If we lost the war, and the British still occupied us and called us a part of their country..would someone who burned a British flag in protest be commiting an act against his country as defined by Britian or against tyranny? Countries are just borders, always able to change.

Interesting how someone asks me if I knew about the American Revolution when I referenced it earlier...

 

THOSE same forefathers who were for freedom of speech, continuing and influenced by the work of John Stewart Mill, who's all for flag burning, because it promotes discussion and if done correctly shows why people are discontent. Go read On Liberty and shut the f*** up, you don't know sh*t (and I mean that in the nicest way possible).

Don't be an a**hole man, that was uncalled for.

 

My point is NOT that you're wrong to say flag burning is more or less free speech and hence protected by the Constitution, my point IS that you're wrong to say nobody fought and died for the flag.

 

You need to know that most of the time when I debate you, I don't disagree with your opinion, but I am arguing the elements of your argument.

My point is NOT that you're wrong to say flag burning is more or less free speech and hence protected by the Constitution, my point IS that you're wrong to say nobody fought and died for the flag.

 

 

The flag merely represents the country which gives the orders for the soldiers to fight. Nobody has ever, ever-ever, for forever ever (?) taken a literal bullet for a flag. Which is what I'm arguing. They've taken bullets because they were ordered to, because the policies of the people in charge. To say that people have taken literal bullets FOR a flag is ludicrous and downright insulting to me. It's "kindergarten talk," to my line of thinking.

 

In what way does burning a flag do someone real damage? Because someone sees it and gets offended? Well, that's totally ridiculous, especially if someone has a good reason for burning a flag. Because, I guarantee you, the flag-burner is not hurt any more for doing so, than, really, is the person who sees the flag being burnt. It's protest, it falls under the same protected speech as the middle finger, offensive bumper stickers, etc.

The problem with you and just about every Bull Pen regular is you insist on seeing everything in terms of black and white.

The problem with you and just about every Bull Pen regular is you insist on seeing everything in terms of black and white.

 

 

Not, really. I don't think it's wrong. Ever.

 

Because I just don't care if people burn the flag. I want more people to do it when our government f***s up. I want more people to acknowledge it and legitimate reasons for doing it. I want people who are too hasty to burn the flag to realize the error of their ways upon further argument. I want this whole country to lighten up and focus on real issues.

 

Where's the gray?

The problem with you and just about every Bull Pen regular is you insist on seeing everything in terms of black and white.

 

 

Not, really. I don't think it's wrong. Ever.

 

Because I just don't care if people burn the flag. I want more people to do it when our government f***s up. I want more people to acknowledge it and legitimate reasons for doing it. I want people who are too hasty to burn the flag to realize the error of their ways upon further argument. I want this whole country to lighten up and focus on real issues.

 

Where's the gray?

 

You just posted an entire paragraph that I agree with. I already told you I agree with you on flag burning and that was a very well put statement. I just think you're wrong when you say nobody has died for the flag. The flag represented an American nation and that is why nations have flags, and in the Revolutionary Period, the flag was the only thing the Continental Army had to fight and die for. That's my opinion and forgive my lack of humility but I think it's a pretty damn good one.

I don't.

 

They didn't die for a flag. They died because they weren't given fair shair by British and wanted to set up their own government. They died more for the fact that they were getting taxed like crazy and yet had no say about what went on in their own towns and cities. So, a group of men said "f*** you" and set up their own government while using the tools of revolution to do so.

 

A flag is an icon for this country, just as the WWE logo is an icon for WWE.

Then what is the point of a flag?

Then what is the point of a flag?

 

 

What's the point of the WWE logo?

 

You see it and it merely REPRESENTS all that you hold to be related to that company. The flag is NOT America. It's merely a symbol FOR America. It's like a marketing tool for countries. You see the flag and immediately think of USA. Doesn't mean it IS the USA.

Why was their a flag when there wasn't a government or a nation during the Revolutionary Period?

Why was their a flag when there wasn't a government or a nation during the Revolutionary Period?

 

 

Because likeminded people could meet and feel official?

 

I don't know. Why don't you tell me, since you have all the answers.

 

Do you still think they died for that flag? Was that the only reason? Or was there more to it? I mean, why did they die? For the color red? Or was it the color white? Maybe blue, tricky devil. Explain to me how someone takes a bullet for a flag. Because, I guarentee you, if someone wanted to, they could walk up to said flag and shoot it. Then they could say, "I shot you flag." I don't get how someone dies for a flag. Must be a moron to die for a peice of cloth. Or is it something more? More than a flag? Because, let's be honest, government, the constitution, congress, presidents, are ALL bigger, more vast, more varied, more literate than a flag.