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As If Iraq Couldn't Get Any Worse...


FutureGM

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From Newsweek's 7/31 Issue:

 

July 31, 2006 issue - Israel launched airstrikes on Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezballah earlier this month, and George W. Bush called it "self-defense." But what to tell the Turks, who over the last week lost 15 soldiers to terror attacks launched by separatist Kurds from neighboring Iraq? Many Turkish leaders are pressing for cross-border tactical air assaults on the guerrillas. But Bush, fearing yet another escalation of the Middle East's violence, urged Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to hold off. "The message was, unilateral action isn't going to be helpful," says a senior U.S. official, describing the 15-minute phone conversation. "The president asked for patience."

 

And so Turkish forces are holding fast?for now?in deference to their half-century alliance with the United States. But that patience is bound to be challenged, probably sooner than later. Domestic political pressures are building to take a leaf from Israel's book and hit back at the guerrillas of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK. Since the beginning of the year, attacks on Turkish military garrisons and police stations have esca-lated across the country's southeast, along with random shootings, bombings and protests?many of them, authorities suspect, organized in Iraq. Already the Turkish military has laid detailed plans for possible helicopter-and-commando assaults, government sources tell NEWSWEEK. Meanwhile, Ankara's frustration with Washington has grown palpable. For all the Bush administration's repeated promises to crack down on the PKK, little if anything has happened. With elections coming next year, Erdogan could be pardoned for soon concluding that his forbearance might prove politically dangerous. "Moderate, liberal people in Turkey are becoming increasingly anti-American," warns Turkey's Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul. "That isn't good."

 

Erdogan has built a career on skillfully riding populist waves, and he's not going to miss this one. On the one hand, he recognizes the importance of maintaining good relations with America, if only to foil critics who lambaste him for being too Islamist. On the other, popular anger at the PKK is getting explosive. At the funeral of a murdered soldier in Izmir last week, crowds destroyed wreaths sent by Erdogan's Interior Minister Abdulkadir Aksu and the city's governor, Oguz Kaan Koksal. Some mourners chanted slogans accusing the government of cooperating with the PKK. And when a group of 60 human-rights activists were arrested in the resort of Kiyikoy on suspicion of being PKK sympathizers last week, locals attacked the detainees with stones and iron bars.

 

The Turkish press has been baying for action, with even the solidly pro-American Turkish Daily News railing in an editorial that "Turkey is no banana republic that can leave its security to the mercy of others." Another editorial posed the question more directly. "Why is it that Israel has the right to 'self-defense'," the paper asked, "and not Turkey." The country's usually fractious parliamentary opposition, in a rare moment of unity, called for active intervention. "Opposition," says True Path Party leader Mehmet Agar, "ends at Habur"?Turkey's border crossing with Iraq.

 

Can Washington keep the lid on this bubbling pot? Not for long, many experts fear. Despite past assurances, the U.S. military has been unwilling or unable to mount operations against the guerrillas. With its hands full elsewhere, Washington can realistically offer little more than in-telligence-sharing, coupled with possible measures to cut off PKK funding. That's just not enough, says a senior Erdogan aide: "We want action, not words." Nor can the Turks expect much from the Iraqis. "We will not tolerate any terrorist groups on the territory of Iraq," Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshir Zebari told NEWSWEEK. But even he acknowledges that it may be a while before the government's security forces get around to dealing with the PKK. By contrast, Iran last week began shelling PKK positions around Kandil Mountain on northern Iraq's Iranian and Turkish border. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also called Erdogan to assure him of Tehran's willingess to help quell the guerrillas ?unlike the United States.

 

This won't automatically lead to another front in the region's wars. For all the clamor for a military strike, "the sane members of the Turkish General Staff are aware of the costs of going into northern Iraq," says independent analyst Grenville Byford. Those include possible all-out civil disorder across Turkey's Kurdish southeast provinces?which, if rioting this spring is anything to go by, would lead to a brutal crackdown, hurting Ankara's hopes for joining the EU. "There is no good way out of this for the Turkish government," says Byford.

 

All this comes at a bad time, clearly. Turkey could play a key diplomatic role in dealing with the burgeoning crisis in southern Lebanon, NATO officials say, especially if Turkey were willing to provide troops to the sort of international force being promoted by France and other European leaders, including Tony Blair. Not only are Turks Muslims, which should reduce frictions with the local population, but Ankara also enjoys good working relations with many of the countries and forces active behind the scenes. As one of Damascus's few friends in the region, for example, Ankara would be in a good position to rein in Syrian ambitions in Leba-non. Erdogan has been trying to play the role of mediator with Iran, Israel and the Palestinians as well?precisely why Turkey would "encourage and support" an international peacekeeping force, says Foreign Ministry spokesman Namik Tan.

 

Objectively, Turkey knows that it has no real option but to remain within the Western Alliance. As for Erdogan himself, who has pushed through so many dramatic reforms to win membership in the European Union, he, too, will be reluctant to break with the West, however sorely provoked by the PKK. Still, if attacks continue to the point where his political survival is at stake, that sense of restraint could abruptly give way. Last week rumors swirled in Ankara and Istanbul that he was close to such a move. For the United States and others, the diplomatic challenge is to help save Erdogan from having to make such a choice. If they fail, the next occasion may require more than a phone call from Bush.

 

I heard reports of this becoming a problem last week, but this is the first article I have been able to find on the subject. This is the last thing we need with Iraq already on the verge of a Sunni/Shia civil war.

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

 

exactly...nice source there (Newsweek). no wonder......

 

When will they talk about the Iraqi people being grateful that we are there helping them, playing with children, feeding them, teaching them American games? Of course they won't....

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

 

exactly...nice source there (Newsweek). no wonder......

 

When will they talk about the Iraqi people being grateful that we are there helping them, playing with children, feeding them, teaching them American games? Of course they won't....

How much do you know about this stories, background? This story has been going on for a long time, their is a long split between these two groups, which often is close to the point of violence, this isn't the "liberal media" propping up this sotry, so don't play it out to be.

 

This is a serious story, more so for Turkey. This outside of Cyprus, is one of the biggest problems facing Turkey in it's attempt to get in the EU. Hell, several conservative/libertarian papers who actually do real news stories have been reporting on this saga for quite some time, most notably the Economist.

 

So, don't try to downplay this story, which is a serious story for two factions, and could affect the balance of the EU, but hey if Rush isn't talking about, it ain't news.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

LOL, I love how this is the cliche, *insert here*, phrase for Conservatives, whenever this war is discussed.

 

Well, actually, I have. During my Cousin's wedding this week, we talked to a kid who is going out with one of the Bride's maids, and was over there, and was actually one who guarded Saddam(he was in the company, who did the infamous GQ story on Saddam and his Dorito's), and he talked to me, about how early on it really was worth it. Building schools, helping out infrastructure, really made the job bearable. But now, most of the guys are fed up, as most infrastructure building is winding down for troops, and now their sitting ducks in a civil war, the Kurds are the only group still worth fighting for, but they're mostly self - sustainable.

 

That's what he said, but I'm not going to use his arguements, because we're the ones here talking. So next time, you don't like someone says, back it up, don't come away with such a cliche answer, that adds nothing, and is so completely vague, it borderlines meaningless.

 

"Go talk to the boots on the ground", what is that honestly going to accomplish? I'm sure their's various soilders who actually differ in their opinion in the war, Gee, just like America. So what in the end is this going to bring to the table?

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

 

exactly...nice source there (Newsweek). no wonder......

 

When will they talk about the Iraqi people being grateful that we are there helping them, playing with children, feeding them, teaching them American games? Of course they won't....

How much do you know about this stories, background? This story has been going on for a long time, their is a long split between these two groups, which often is close to the point of violence, this isn't the "liberal media" propping up this sotry, so don't play it out to be.

 

This is a serious story, more so for Turkey. This outside of Cyprus, is one of the biggest problems facing Turkey in it's attempt to get in the EU. Hell, several conservative/libertarian papers who actually do real news stories have been reporting on this saga for quite some time, most notably the Economist.

 

So, don't try to downplay this story, which is a serious story for two factions, and could affect the balance of the EU, but hey if Rush isn't talking about, it ain't news.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

LOL, I love how this is the cliche, *insert here*, phrase for Conservatives, whenever this war is discussed.

 

Well, actually, I have. During my Cousin's wedding this week, we talked to a kid who is going out with one of the Bride's maids, and was over there, and was actually one who guarded Saddam(he was in the company, who did the infamous GQ story on Saddam and his Dorito's), and he talked to me, about how early on it really was worth it. Building schools, helping out infrastructure, really made the job bearable. But now, most of the guys are fed up, as most infrastructure building is winding down for troops, and now their sitting ducks in a civil war, the Kurds are the only group still worth fighting for, but they're mostly self - sustainable.

 

That's what he said, but I'm not going to use his arguements, because we're the ones here talking. So next time, you don't like someone says, back it up, don't come away with such a cliche answer, that adds nothing, and is so completely vague, it borderlines meaningless.

 

"Go talk to the boots on the ground", what is that honestly going to accomplish? I'm sure their's various soilders who actually differ in their opinion in the war, Gee, just like America. So what in the end is this going to bring to the table?

exactly...i have my ex college roommate in kuwait, ive had two cousins in iraq and my other cousin's husband is a navy seal who was in iraq wayyyyyyyyy before the army and air force got there...and in talking to all them, their opinions vary on a few different things, but none of them think that the situation is getting better...and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents? yeah...we are just making a hell of alot more terrorists that will have vengence on their mind when they grow up

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

 

Yawn. This is the standard response to everything that goes bad in Iraq. This is your logic:

Problem- The balance of power remains destabalized in the Middle East with numerous acts of viloence.

Response- "At least we got rid of Saddam. The insurgency is in its 'last throws.' Support our troops."

 

Do you see the problem? Your response in no way adresses the serious problems that exist. The Middle East is a f***ing mess and Iraq is smack dab in the middle of it. This article presents a serious issue, whatever source it came from. How can the US support millitary action from Israel in self-defense, but not from Turkey against terrorists acting against the their millitary? The inconsistencies in Bush's foreign policy make it less and less credible every day. And just FYI, a family friend of mine was seriously injured by a roadside IED a little over a year a ago. He and his family certainly don't feel the same way you do.

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. B/c ive talked to several soldiers who do think its getting better out there, and others that disagree.

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

Yeah, because their's really only like 10 soilders, so it's completely illogical that they'd be that close connected?

 

What the hell are you talking about? Um, go to any community and I dare you to find me not one person who's served overseas? Whenever you have a big military operation, Gee, get this...

 

You're going to have civilians who know active participants.

 

Wow, what a mindf***, I'd never expect that. The fact that you're trying to belittle people, without offering any counterevidence, or arguement against the points they're making, is a joke.

 

But hey, you know, you know.

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

Yeah, because their's really only like 10 soilders, so it's completely illogical that they'd be that close connected?

 

What the hell are you talking about? Um, go to any community and I dare you to find me not one person who's served overseas? Whenever you have a big military operation, Gee, get this...

 

You're going to have civilians who know active participants.

 

Wow, what a mindf***, I'd never expect that. The fact that you're trying to belittle people, without offering any counterevidence, or arguement against the points they're making, is a joke.

 

But hey, you know, you know.

 

I think you misinterpreted what accord said. He isnt say that its a coincidence that every liberal he knows knows someone in the military. What accord is saying is why is that that the liberals he knows dont know any soldiers who actually approve of the war. B/c those soldiers exist as well. For example i know soldiers with differing opinions.

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I think you misinterpreted what accord said. He isnt say that its a coincidence that every liberal he knows knows someone in the military. What accord is saying is why is that that the liberals he knows dont know any soldiers who actually approve of the war. B/c those soldiers exist as well. For example i know soldiers with differing opinions.

 

Ok, if that's what Accord was meaning to say, I apologize, and their's probably truth in that statement. However, it still backs up what I said previously, it's unfair, to try to back up the war by saying "Well, ask the troops", becuase they're ordinary Americans, and just like anyone else in this country, you're going to have a dichotomy of opinions, and it's not right to try to use them as a crutch for support on the war, and to use that as a sole arguement, is a cop out.

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I think you misinterpreted what accord said. He isnt say that its a coincidence that every liberal he knows knows someone in the military. What accord is saying is why is that that the liberals he knows dont know any soldiers who actually approve of the war. B/c those soldiers exist as well. For example i know soldiers with differing opinions.

 

Ok, if that's what Accord was meaning to say, I apologize, and their's probably truth in that statement. However, it still backs up what I said previously, it's unfair, to try to back up the war by saying "Well, ask the troops", becuase they're ordinary Americans, and just like anyone else in this country, you're going to have a dichotomy of opinions, and it's not right to try to use them as a crutch for support on the war, and to use that as a sole arguement, is a cop out.

 

 

Agreed

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

rune said it best in response to such ignorance by accord...let me ask you this...did you know anyone in WW II? i had 3 grandfathers (one step) fight in the war, ive had more relatives than i can shake a stick at be in the military, i graduated with a degree in history, ive read all sorts of war books and ill just say this...war is the single greatest thing in history that changes the world...but that change has so rarely been good that if humanity would learn anything from its mistakes, it would learn that only thing war solves is how to start a new war and cause more innocent deaths

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and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

 

:plain Tell me you're kidding. There are nearly 1.5 million Americans currently active in the millitary. Over 60% of Americans disapprove of the war in Iraq. Yeah, what a coincidence.

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i graduated with a degree in history

 

You can't be serious. From what school? Ward Churchhill must have been one of your professors.

 

 

 

and tell me...what use is it building schools when you bombed the kids parents?

 

Jimmy strikes again :lol .

 

And why does it seem like every liberal I come across has a "friend" or "cousin" who is in the military and against the war? :plain What a complete load of crap.

 

:plain Tell me you're kidding. There are nearly 1.5 million Americans currently active in the millitary. Over 60% of Americans disapprove of the war in Iraq. Yeah, what a coincidence.

Yes, an entire 0.5% of the population, most of whom do not fall into that 60%.

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How many people do you know? How many relatives and friends do you have? That .5% of the population isn't what's in question. You're questioning how many people know someone in this .5%, which is actually quite high. And how do you know that most of the millitary doesn't fall in that 60%? Considering that a disproportinate number of soldiers are Hispanic and African-American, and these groups tend to have higher disapproval ratings for the war, I'd say that's not the smartest assumption to make.

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How many people do you know? How many relatives and friends do you have? That .5% of the population isn't what's in question. You're questioning how many people know someone in this .5%, which is actually quite high. And how do you know that most of the millitary doesn't fall in that 60%? Considering that a disproportinate number of soldiers are Hispanic and African-American, and these groups tend to have higher disapproval ratings for the war, I'd say that's not the smartest assumption to make.

 

12% of soldiers in the Army are hispanic and 14.5% are black, the numbers are even less in the other branches - hardly what I would call disproportionate. And those minorities who are serving in the military are certainly going to be the exception, not the rule.

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

My brother in-law went twice as a Marine. Some of the things he tells me are really crazy. When they're going on city-wide raids and walk into a house, they have less than 10 seconds to decide upon what to do about the people there.

 

What's to say that guy over there doesn't have an AK ready to blow you away? What's to say that kid over there doesn't have a bomb strapped to his chest? What's to say that woman over there is really carrying a baby or if it's a couple sticks of dynamite? What's to say they they're civilians? What's to say they're not? It's complete judgement.

 

To say that its getting worse there is ridiculous. He told me that things there were 100% better the second time he went then they were the first time he was there. Do things still go on? Yes. Are people still killed every day? Of course. But things are getting better there.

 

 

Passion got it right -- the thread starter needs to talk to a troop or two.

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Exactly my point, DFF. I take offense at the statement 'As if Iraq couldn't get any worse' when very very few soldiers or world leaders would say it is getting worse.

 

Going to school in Texas and being around a lot of former millitary and current millitary in College Station I talk to a good number of vets often and not a one would tell you it is worse then it was.

 

I'm not trying to 'back up the war' by saying talk to some troops I'm saying back up YOUR statement that it is worse by talking to troops. Just a stupid, biased, statement that can't be backed up.

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Yeah it's no worse then when a dictator was there slaughtering his citizens, or when the fighting was at it's most intense.

 

I'd love for you guys to talk to some of the soliders that have actually been on the ground there, it'd be an eye opening experience.

 

My brother in-law went twice as a Marine. Some of the things he tells me are really crazy. When they're going on city-wide raids and walk into a house, they have less than 10 seconds to decide upon what to do about the people in that city.

 

What's to say that guy over there doesn't have an AK ready to blow you away? What's to say that kid over there doesn't have a bomb strapped to his chest? What's to say that woman over there is really carrying a baby or if it's a couple sticks of dynamite? What's to say they they're civilians? What's to say they're not? It's complete judgement.

 

To say that its getting worse there is ridiculous. He told me that things there were 100% better the second time he went then they were the first time he was there. Do things still go on? Yes. Are people still killed every day? Of course. But things are getting better there.

 

Passion got it right -- the thread starter needs to talk to a troop or two.

as was already discussed, american troops are americans, they all have different opinions on the war...but hey at any rate, seems like a reasonable war to throw billions at a week while the major threat to our national security remains our own president and his policy

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