August 25, 200620 yr Great, but not the best...... i personaly think Rolen,wright,even Lowell play better D at the hot corner...... But i'd say he's in the top 5 to 7 hitters in MLB....
August 25, 200620 yr wow...thanks for the knowledge crimsoncane...good info...and yeah...im sorry...without the NY hype machine, david wrong couldnt carry miggy's jock strap...and will prove that come playoff time...mark my words
August 25, 200620 yr Great, but not the best...... i personaly think Rolen,wright,even Lowell play better D at the hot corner...... But i'd say he's in the top 5 to 7 hitters in MLB.... What has David Wright done to become such a great fielder? And also, cabs was stuck in the outfield the past three seasons, and started of in the minors as a shortstop, but still is a better fielder. Just because Wright is hyped by the New York media does not mean he is perfect. Rollen is still a better fielder, but Cabrera is the best overall 3b in baseball.
August 26, 200620 yr the best 3B in baseball, easy. david wright will give him a lot of competition though, I know you guys don't like him so that automatically means he sucks, but he's a hell of a plyer
August 26, 200620 yr I'm not going to try to say who's better than who in the MLB at 3B, but I wouldn't trade Cabrera for any other 3B in the league.
August 26, 200620 yr Though it may be useless to argue that Miguel Cabrera is a better defensive 3rd baseman than David Wright based on statistics with someone who says they don't believe in statistics, I'll include the information and hope some of it may make sense. All the stats here are taken from Baseball Prospectus so they were not cooked up by the "Miguel Cabrera Is Awesome And I've Got the Numbers to Prove It" Association of Statisticians. First, I'll list Cabrera and Wright's statistics: CABRERA: Put Outs (86) / Assists (219) / Errors (13) / Double Plays (30) / Rate (107) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (19) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (9) / WRIGHT: Put Outs (88) / Assists (225) / Errors (16) / Double Plays (24) / Rate (101) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (12) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (1) Wright has marginally more put outs and assists than Cabrera. Cabrera has turned more double plays, and has committed 3 less errors. However, when we get to the more advanced statistics Cabrera is clearly the better 3rd baseman defensively. Cabrera has the better rate, and is 19 runs above a replacement player compared to Wright's 12. Additionally, he is 9 runs better than an average defensive 3rd baseman, while Wright's 1 run FRAA means he is essentially an average defensive 3rd baseman. Now, what the hell does Rate, Fielding Runs Above Replacement (FRAR), and Fielding Runs Above Average (FRAA) mean? - Rate: A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games; a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc. - Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (FRAR): A fielding statistic, where a replacement player is meant to be approximately equal to the lowest-ranking player at that position, fielding wise, in the majors. - Fielding Runs Above Average Player: Same concept as FRAR except based on the statistics of an average ML 3rd baseman rather than the worst defensive third baseman in the league. While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. LOWELL (2005 Gold Glove Season): Put Outs (107) / Assists (243) / Errors (6) / Double Plays (34) / Rate (110) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (25) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (13) ROLEN (2004 Gold Glove Season): Put Outs (93) / Assists (325) / Errors (10) / Double Plays (23) / Rate (115) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (33) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (20) BROOKS ROBINSON (1967 Gold Glove Season ? Best Defensive Season for 3rd Baseman of All-Time): Put Outs (147) / Assists (325) / Errors (10) / Double Plays (23) / Rate (115) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (56) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (33) The data shows a few things: 1) At the moment, Cabrera isn't a Gold Glove caliber 3rd baseman, but he's closer to Mike Lowell and Scott Rolen defensively than David Wright is. 2) Brooks Robinson (16 Gold Gloves)was absolutely disgusting. 3) Lowell, Rolen, and Robinson's stats are based on full seasons, so Cabrera still has time to increase his FRAR and FRAA before the season ends. Hope this gives some more weight to the stats-based argument. Cane could you plz give your source link I have been looking for defensive stats for quite some time
August 26, 200620 yr While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. Cabrera is the best 3B in baseball and overall is one of the top handful of hitters in the game but I've watched him play about 85% of his games this season and if he's a good defensive 3B, as you're alluding, then my eyeballs are lying to me. In my opinion the best defensive stat to use is Zone Rating and Cabrera ranks 18th out of 22 MLB 3B in ZR and that jibes with what my eyeballs have watched so far this season.
August 26, 200620 yr Cabrera (in a down year or average year by his standards) Explain how it is that Cabrera is having a "down year or average year by his standards" when so far this season he has career highs in AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS?
August 26, 200620 yr While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. Cabrera is the best 3B in baseball and overall is one of the top handful of hitters in the game but I've watched him play about 85% of his games this season and if he's a good defensive 3B, as you're alluding, then my eyeballs are lying to me. In my opinion the best defensive stat to use is Zone Rating and Cabrera ranks 18th out of 22 MLB 3B in ZR and that jibes with what my eyeballs have watched so far this season. Polo, Wouldn't you agree, however, that Cabs has improved dramatically during the season defensively? The majority of his errors came early on. He's made some very nice plays, and I think he will improve next year (needs to come into camp in shape!)
August 26, 200620 yr While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. Cabrera is the best 3B in baseball and overall is one of the top handful of hitters in the game but I've watched him play about 85% of his games this season and if he's a good defensive 3B, as you're alluding, then my eyeballs are lying to me. In my opinion the best defensive stat to use is Zone Rating and Cabrera ranks 18th out of 22 MLB 3B in ZR and that jibes with what my eyeballs have watched so far this season. Polo, Wouldn't you agree, however, that Cabs has improved dramatically during the season defensively? The majority of his errors came early on. He's made some very nice plays, and I think he will improve next year (needs to come into camp in shape!) I agree his defensive play has improved as the season has moved along. He has cut down on the errors, particularly the throwing errors, and is making more plays. The last 2 or 3 months he hasn't hurt the team with his glove (and arm) the way he did the first few weeks. Next season, if he's in shape, I think he could be an average defensive 3B. I don't think an "in shape" Cabrera will reach GG standards because even in top notch shape he'll still be bigger than most other 3B and I don't think he'll have the range or quickness to be a top defensive 3B.
August 26, 200620 yr Cane could you plz give your source link I have been looking for defensive stats for quite some time I pulled the stats off of Baseball Prospectus. Here's a link to Cabrera's profile: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cabremi01.shtml And Wright's: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wrighda03.shtml The other seasons I listed can be found by searching for the player. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. You can see how fielding runs are roughly calculated by checking out this site (http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Leaders/glossary.htm). However, the one's I list from Baseball Prospectus work from that initial formula and include some adjustments. I pulled the following off of an article at Baseball Prospectus, you need a membership there to view the article, so I'm quoting the important part. "There are five key adjustments: * Park Factor: This affects outfielders more than other positions since infield size is strictly regulated while outfields seem to be turning more into amusement parks than playing surfaces. Other factors, such as the amount of foul territory, can also have profound effects on fielding performance, at least until baseball allows players to enter the stands to make plays. Imagine if the Cubs had built Wrigley Field with just a little more space in left field--Steve Bartman wouldn't have been able to reach out and grab his fateful ball. * Balls in Play: Certain teams allow more balls in play than others. Teams with staffs heavy with power pitchers (again, the Cubs come to mind) see many more strikeouts than an average team, yielding fewer balls in play. Fielders should not be penalized for not making an out when the pitcher does it all himself. * Ground balls and fly balls: Having the best outfield in the league means less if you've got a groundball staff. Since the GB/FB ratio listed for pitchers is based on outs, some slight adjustments have to made to estimate how many of the hits allows for ground balls with eyes and how many were liners and flies. * Left/right balance of the pitching staff: Left-handed pitchers face more right-handed batters--something that generally leads to more balls hit to short, third, and left field, and vice versa. After adjusting for strikeouts, better estimates of batted-ball distribution can be made. * Men of first base: With the exception of the rare triple play, the double play is one of the most impressive defensive feats in baseball. Obviously, though, certain teams have more opportunities for double plays than others, so knowing the raw number of double plays isn't nearly as helpful as knowing what percentage of double play opportunities were actually converted. " I don't have the formulas or what have you to calculate these adjustments for myself, I'm working under the assumption that they provide a more accurate assessment of the fielder's abilities as the reason for the adjustments, in my opinion, are logical. Baseball Prospectus uses Clay Davenport's formulas for these adjustments, so they are along the same lines as those used to calculate EqA.
August 26, 200620 yr the best 3B in baseball, easy. david wright will give him a lot of competition though, I know you guys don't like him so that automatically means he sucks, but he's a hell of a plyer Are Wright defenders just plain blind? Nobody here has said anything along the lines of "Wright's A Mutt He sukks." Yet we keep being accused of blind homerism. Stats have been provided to put Wright's "A+ defense" (as was described by a Wright defender) to the question. It has been proven to a reasonable degree that Wright is not all he is hyped up to be defensively, with Cabs being at least comparable (if not superior) with the glove. Given that, and the fact that Miguel kills him offensively (even with Beltran and Delgado protecting Wright), brings us to the conclusion that Miggy is flat out the better player right now. You Wright defenders should just read the posts presented in front of your noses instead of just thinking "Of course they'll say Wright sukks" and dismissing all arguments. It makes you all look pathetic. Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error :whistle Classic loser response when he is beaten by cold hard facts.
August 27, 200620 yr Cane could you plz give your source link I have been looking for defensive stats for quite some time I pulled the stats off of Baseball Prospectus. Here's a link to Cabrera's profile: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cabremi01.shtml And Wright's: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wrighda03.shtml The other seasons I listed can be found by searching for the player. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. You can see how fielding runs are roughly calculated by checking out this site (http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Leaders/glossary.htm). However, the one's I list from Baseball Prospectus work from that initial formula and include some adjustments. I pulled the following off of an article at Baseball Prospectus, you need a membership there to view the article, so I'm quoting the important part. "There are five key adjustments: * Park Factor: This affects outfielders more than other positions since infield size is strictly regulated while outfields seem to be turning more into amusement parks than playing surfaces. Other factors, such as the amount of foul territory, can also have profound effects on fielding performance, at least until baseball allows players to enter the stands to make plays. Imagine if the Cubs had built Wrigley Field with just a little more space in left field--Steve Bartman wouldn't have been able to reach out and grab his fateful ball. * Balls in Play: Certain teams allow more balls in play than others. Teams with staffs heavy with power pitchers (again, the Cubs come to mind) see many more strikeouts than an average team, yielding fewer balls in play. Fielders should not be penalized for not making an out when the pitcher does it all himself. * Ground balls and fly balls: Having the best outfield in the league means less if you've got a groundball staff. Since the GB/FB ratio listed for pitchers is based on outs, some slight adjustments have to made to estimate how many of the hits allows for ground balls with eyes and how many were liners and flies. * Left/right balance of the pitching staff: Left-handed pitchers face more right-handed batters--something that generally leads to more balls hit to short, third, and left field, and vice versa. After adjusting for strikeouts, better estimates of batted-ball distribution can be made. * Men of first base: With the exception of the rare triple play, the double play is one of the most impressive defensive feats in baseball. Obviously, though, certain teams have more opportunities for double plays than others, so knowing the raw number of double plays isn't nearly as helpful as knowing what percentage of double play opportunities were actually converted. " I don't have the formulas or what have you to calculate these adjustments for myself, I'm working under the assumption that they provide a more accurate assessment of the fielder's abilities as the reason for the adjustments, in my opinion, are logical. Baseball Prospectus uses Clay Davenport's formulas for these adjustments, so they are along the same lines as those used to calculate EqA. Thanks for posting that. It looks to me like the formula doesn't factor the plays the fielder doesn't make that the average fielder would make and I see that as a major flaw in any defensive stat. I'm not entirely sold on Zone Rating but I prefer it over this one.
August 27, 200620 yr I'd rank him next to Edwin Encarnacion :mischief Thanks for posting that. It looks to me like the formula doesn't factor the plays the fielder doesn't make that the average fielder would make and I see that as a major flaw in any defensive stat. I'm not entirely sold on Zone Rating but I prefer it over this one. Uhh, what do you think "fielding runs above average" means? Nonetheless I also trust zone ratings above Field Runs' over-analysis of raw data. Although zone rating systems don't adjust for defensive positioning.
August 27, 200620 yr I'd rank him next to Edwin Encarnacion :mischief Thanks for posting that. It looks to me like the formula doesn't factor the plays the fielder doesn't make that the average fielder would make and I see that as a major flaw in any defensive stat. I'm not entirely sold on Zone Rating but I prefer it over this one. Uhh, what do you think "fielding runs above average" means? Nonetheless I also trust zone ratings above Field Runs' over-analysis of raw data. Although zone rating systems don't adjust for defensive positioning. If you understood the formula you would know that it doesn't consider plays that should be made that weren't made. If you don't understand the formula you really shouldn't discuss it.
August 27, 200620 yr Am I missing something? Plays that should be made that weren't made are determined by a league's worth of player's ability. By what other method would you propose?
August 27, 200620 yr Am I missing something? Plays that should be made that weren't made are determined by a league's worth of player's ability. By what other method would you propose? The variables in Fielding Runs are assists, putouts, errors, double plays and strikeouts but unlike Zone Rating it doesn't factor the plays the player should make in his defensive zone that he doesn't make. That's why I prefer Zone Rating.
August 28, 200620 yr That is why I prefer Zone Rating too. It gets to the heart of defending. However, Zone Rating assumes all players have a similar defensive positioning scheme so it's not perfect either.
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.