August 25, 200620 yr I mean, for the love of God, Cabrera's #2 in the NL in OPS and he's got no lineup protection at all. Screw it, he's the best in baseball, I'm sorry I ever said otherwise. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. Top 3 in all of baseball, and in terms of "trade value" he's easily #1. that I do agree, do to his potencial not being met yet, and him producing at such a large rate, considering his salary, Miguel Cabrera is easily number one in the trade market. He can really bring alot back in any given trade. You have an argument with Wright (although I'll take Cabrera anyday). You have got to be kidding me about Scott Rolen. :plain you have to admit when Rolen is healthy, no one hits it easily up the hot carner with him there, and he goes on streaks where he is an RBI machine in clutch situations. So being the best defensive 3B makes it easy to overlook a player bettering him IN EVERY SINGLE OFFENSIVE CATEGORY? Hell, the "RBI machine" Scott Rolen is almost 20 RBI's behind Miggy. :banghead I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! I'd take a player who can BOTH get me some outs and bring me some offense, over a guy that just hits, but yes I'd still take Cabrera over Rolen do to age, salary, and the fact that Cabrera is not that bad at his position, JUST NOT THE BEST. But you JUST FINISHED SAYING YOU WOULDN'T TAKE HIM OVER ROLEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! highlight where I said that, you must have misunderstood me. My point is that RIGHT now, Cabrera cannot be the best 3rd basemen, because to be the best you must balance out talent in every area. The true argument here should be Cabrera OR Wright anyway.
August 25, 200620 yr Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. God damn it man. Cabrera (in a down year or average year by his standards) has a higher, BA, SLG, OBP, OPS, equal HR total, higher RBI total, higher fielding percentage, fewer errors and more DP's turned than David Wright. He just swept every single goddamn stat you can evaluate a third-baseman by and you suggest Wright's better? And this is with David Wright having a career year mind you, while Miggy's just being his normal self, and if anything, producing below where he should be as far as power numbers go. Go sit in time out, seriously. OWNED :whistle
August 25, 200620 yr they talk about cabs as a future hall of famer...they talk about rolen as a good player...huge difference...oh yeah...and where was rolen when it counted in the world series? as i seem to remember, he dropped off the face of the earth unlike cabs in his world series appearance...there is something to be said about guys who can do it in the playoffs as well
August 25, 200620 yr highlight where I said that, you must have misunderstood me. My point is that RIGHT now, Cabrera cannot be the best 3rd basemen, because to be the best you must balance out talent in every area. The true argument here should be Cabrera OR Wright anyway. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. Please, just stop. Just go away, please. And we've established that Miggy is better with the glove too...mmmkay, unless you need me to explain the concept of fielding percentage and range factor.
August 25, 200620 yr Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error highlight where I said that, you must have misunderstood me. My point is that RIGHT now, Cabrera cannot be the best 3rd basemen, because to be the best you must balance out talent in every area. The true argument here should be Cabrera OR Wright anyway. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. Please, just stop. Just go away, please. And we've established that Miggy is better with the glove too...mmmkay, unless you need me to explain the concept of fielding percentage and range factor. "You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively" This means that defensively they are better, now where did I say I'd take either over Cabrera, point that out for me, for real, indicate me. You can't right?
August 25, 200620 yr Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST STOP! DO YOU COMPREHEND RANGE FACTOR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE BEING MORONIC? IS REY ORDONEZ THEN A BETTER SHORT-STOP THAN HANLEY RAMIREZ? GO AWAY!
August 25, 200620 yr Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST STOP! DO YOU COMPREHEND RANGE FACTOR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE BEING MORONIC? IS REY ORDONEZ THEN A BETTER SHORT-STOP THAN HANLEY RAMIREZ? GO AWAY! why offend someone? It's very easy to carry a point when 99% here are backing Cabrera. He is not the best 3rd basemen defensively, POINT BLANK.
August 25, 200620 yr "You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively" This means that defensively they are better, now where did I say I'd take either over Cabrera, point that out for me, for real, indicate me. You can't right? You named a 1-2-3 of Rolen, Wright and Cabrera. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL.
August 25, 200620 yr Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST STOP! DO YOU COMPREHEND RANGE FACTOR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE BEING MORONIC? IS REY ORDONEZ THEN A BETTER SHORT-STOP THAN HANLEY RAMIREZ? GO AWAY! DEFENSIVELY.
August 25, 200620 yr Typical fanatic comments, I am also a Miguel Cabrera fan, but I am not blind. The reason for the amount of errors on certain players is because some players such as Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Mike Lowell, David Wright, go after every ball hit to them, meaning they have a higher risk of a getting an error called against them. You can work with your stats all you want, I don't believe in stats, I believe in what I see, so my point stands, take it as you want. I am a fan, but I know where to draw a line on reality. Do stats count when Barry Bonds is having a sloppy year and stands in the plate and pitchers automatically are scared of him, compared to a hitter having a career year and they end up pitching the ball at them. Everyday in baseball is a new day, averages are just numbers. I am sure most of those errors counted against these guys were cause they lunged after the ball and got caught with the error FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST STOP! DO YOU COMPREHEND RANGE FACTOR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE BEING MORONIC? IS REY ORDONEZ THEN A BETTER SHORT-STOP THAN HANLEY RAMIREZ? GO AWAY! why offend someone? It's very easy to carry a point when 99% here are backing Cabrera. He is not the best 3rd basemen defensively, POINT BLANK. HE IS BETTER THAN WRIGHT. POINT BLANK
August 25, 200620 yr "You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively" This means that defensively they are better, now where did I say I'd take either over Cabrera, point that out for me, for real, indicate me. You can't right? You named a 1-2-3 of Rolen, Wright and Cabrera. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. and yes I was naming the best trio. Never said I'd take Rolen or Wright over Cabrera.
August 25, 200620 yr You know what, screw it, I'm done. The poster's probably 11 years old and I shouldn't be doing this to a child. I'm sorry I wasted everyone's time here, and my own. I may even just be done even wasting my time here, 99% of the time, no one cares what I have to say or would rather tar and feather me. "You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively" This means that defensively they are better, now where did I say I'd take either over Cabrera, point that out for me, for real, indicate me. You can't right? You named a 1-2-3 of Rolen, Wright and Cabrera. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. and yes I was naming the best trio. Never said I'd take Rolen or Wright over Cabrera. You just said in the same paragraph you couldn't compare Cabrera to the other two. :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead
August 25, 200620 yr Rolen is having a bad year YES, but when healthy he is much more established at HIS POSITION than Cabrera, Wright is much more complete, he play A+ D and brings solid offense to the table. I'd pick Cabrera do to Salary, age, and his clutch performance in big games.
August 25, 200620 yr You know what, screw it, I'm done. The poster's probably 11 years old and I shouldn't be doing this to a child. I'm sorry I wasted everyone's time here, and my own. I may even just be done even wasting my time here, 99% of the time, no one cares what I have to say or would rather tar and feather me. "You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively" This means that defensively they are better, now where did I say I'd take either over Cabrera, point that out for me, for real, indicate me. You can't right? You named a 1-2-3 of Rolen, Wright and Cabrera. Those who said Miguel Cabrera is the best 3rd basemen in MLB are just fans and extremely nieve. He is very solid, but not a complete player. You can't compare miggy to the likes of David Wright or Even Scott Rolen, they are great hitters and A+ defensively. Miggy is a proven Clutch hitter and run producer with a high ceiling in the power department, but his glove is just above a C. Although I love miggy and I am glad he is a Marlins player, I can't be a fan, I must look at true talent. He is definately top three in the NL though! P.S. You can't define a certain player as the best in HIS particular position just cause of his bat, his defense needs to be seen too, then determine who is really the best. Who do you get more from? My ranks are: Rolen, Wright, and Miggy in the NL. and yes I was naming the best trio. Never said I'd take Rolen or Wright over Cabrera. You just said in the same paragraph you couldn't compare Cabrera to the other two. :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead Son I am 20, and here you go again with the insults. I am no child, and I actually play the game! 2nd best pure hitter in the MLB. I'm with that. Same here... that I agree 100%
August 25, 200620 yr I would say best third-bagger in baseball. Scott Rolen's days are winding down, and Miggy's only competition is coming from David Wright at this point. Ryan Zimmerman has a lot of potential, but he isn't at Wright and Cabrera's level yet. Of course, you have to give him a demerit for the poor fielding at times, but he has improved over the course of this year. The key is that Miguel gets on base, which helps out the team overall. I want to see what Wright could do if he wasn't surrounded by Beltran, Delgado, etc. in a lineup.
August 25, 200620 yr you guys are C R A Z Y ! how can you say wright is better? miggy has been amazing since 21 years old and wright is doing what he SHOULD be doing in the line up of his and guess what?? miggy is leading him in mostly every stat! theres hype around david cuz he plays in ny, but he hasnt done anything as amazing as cabs. NUFF SAID!
August 25, 200620 yr David Wright has a decent glove and a good bat, but if it wasn't for the New York/MLB hype machine turning Wright into baseball's golden boy no one would consider him to be at Cabrera's level. David Wright as a Kansas City Royal? A very good third baseman. David Wright as a New York Met? The best thing since sliced bread.
August 25, 200620 yr Though it may be useless to argue that Miguel Cabrera is a better defensive 3rd baseman than David Wright based on statistics with someone who says they don't believe in statistics, I'll include the information and hope some of it may make sense. All the stats here are taken from Baseball Prospectus so they were not cooked up by the "Miguel Cabrera Is Awesome And I've Got the Numbers to Prove It" Association of Statisticians. First, I'll list Cabrera and Wright's statistics: CABRERA: Put Outs (86) / Assists (219) / Errors (13) / Double Plays (30) / Rate (107) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (19) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (9) / WRIGHT: Put Outs (88) / Assists (225) / Errors (16) / Double Plays (24) / Rate (101) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (12) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (1) Wright has marginally more put outs and assists than Cabrera. Cabrera has turned more double plays, and has committed 3 less errors. However, when we get to the more advanced statistics Cabrera is clearly the better 3rd baseman defensively. Cabrera has the better rate, and is 19 runs above a replacement player compared to Wright's 12. Additionally, he is 9 runs better than an average defensive 3rd baseman, while Wright's 1 run FRAA means he is essentially an average defensive 3rd baseman. Now, what the hell does Rate, Fielding Runs Above Replacement (FRAR), and Fielding Runs Above Average (FRAA) mean? - Rate: A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games; a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc. - Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (FRAR): A fielding statistic, where a replacement player is meant to be approximately equal to the lowest-ranking player at that position, fielding wise, in the majors. - Fielding Runs Above Average Player: Same concept as FRAR except based on the statistics of an average ML 3rd baseman rather than the worst defensive third baseman in the league. While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. LOWELL (2005 Gold Glove Season): Put Outs (107) / Assists (243) / Errors (6) / Double Plays (34) / Rate (110) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (25) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (13) ROLEN (2004 Gold Glove Season): Put Outs (93) / Assists (325) / Errors (10) / Double Plays (23) / Rate (115) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (33) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (20) BROOKS ROBINSON (1967 Gold Glove Season ? Best Defensive Season for 3rd Baseman of All-Time): Put Outs (147) / Assists (325) / Errors (10) / Double Plays (23) / Rate (115) / Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (56) / Fielding Runs Above Average Player (33) The data shows a few things: 1) At the moment, Cabrera isn't a Gold Glove caliber 3rd baseman, but he's closer to Mike Lowell and Scott Rolen defensively than David Wright is. 2) Brooks Robinson (16 Gold Gloves)was absolutely disgusting. 3) Lowell, Rolen, and Robinson's stats are based on full seasons, so Cabrera still has time to increase his FRAR and FRAA before the season ends. Hope this gives some more weight to the stats-based argument.
August 25, 200620 yr Rate: A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games; a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc. - Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player (FRAR): A fielding statistic, where a replacement player is meant to be approximately equal to the lowest-ranking player at that position, fielding wise, in the majors. - Fielding Runs Above Average Player: Same concept as FRAR except based on the statistics of an average ML 3rd baseman rather than the worst defensive third baseman in the league. I'm just confused by how the term 'runs' is used in this instance?
August 25, 200620 yr Son I am 20, and here you go again with the insults. I am no child, and I actually play the game! That's far more sad than I could have possibly imagined. Crimson, thank God SOMEONE gets it. David Wright has a decent glove and a good bat, but if it wasn't for the New York/MLB hype machine turning Wright into baseball's golden boy no one would consider him to be at Cabrera's level. David Wright as a Kansas City Royal? A very good third baseman. David Wright as a New York Met? The best thing since sliced bread. Wait, is sliced bread really that great? I mean, it can't catch a ball barehanded running backwards, or love to watch 24 because "Jack Bauer is cool." Or, it can't have fun plays on it's name such as "looking for Mr. Wright."
August 25, 200620 yr I'm just confused by how the term 'runs' is used in this instance? I pulled this off of this thread (http://forums.mlbcenter.com/lofiversion/index.php/t24106.html): "It's a measure of how many runs a fielder saved that the average fielder at his position would not have on defense...It is calculated through a series of complicated regressions to determine the value of each type of defensive play by each position and then adjustments to account for team context biases like the groundball/flyball rate of the pitching staff, the strikeouts a pitching staff records, the lefthandedness of the staff, the park, and the baserunners allowed by the staff." (In the interest of fairness, I'd like to note that the person who provided the definition states that while he does not consider FRAA to be the best fielding metric available, it does provide a good rough idea.)
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