September 20, 200619 yr Author I'm not sure how he was defensively, but with the bat D. Lee really sucked his first full year in the majors. are you comparing him with Jacobs? Just saying Jacobs is just a rookie, why wouldn't he have room for improvement? I know they don't compare defensively at all. There's a huge difference between a 22 year old rookie with a pedigree and a 26 year old rookie with injury issues.
September 20, 200619 yr I'm not sure how he was defensively, but with the bat D. Lee really sucked his first full year in the majors. are you comparing him with Jacobs? Just saying Jacobs is just a rookie, why wouldn't he have room for improvement? I know they don't compare defensively at all. Jacobs can certainly improve, but I for one dont believe he will be doing it in Teal next season also, Lee was just 22 as a rookie... not sure if it has relevance or not, considering this is just Jacobs 1st or 2nd year at 1st base
September 20, 200619 yr No way should the Marlins give up on Jacobs yet. :mischief Explain? Know something we dont?
September 20, 200619 yr I think Loria will raise the payroll also and that would give us enough to get rid of ppl who we just dont need anymore. Allowing us to sign arms for the bullpen and complete deals with Cabrera and Willis before we have to go to Abritration with them. What makes you think payroll will be increased?
September 20, 200619 yr No way should the Marlins give up on Jacobs yet. :mischief Explain? Know something we dont? No it's pretty common knowledge that Jacobs is atrocious on D, can't hit lefties and hasn't had a great year offensively.
September 20, 200619 yr No way should the Marlins give up on Jacobs yet. :mischief Explain? Know something we dont? His strong points: OPS in 30 games with the Mets in '05: 1.085 OPS in AA in '04: .965 AA All Star AA Eastern League MVP Limited MLB experience before this year OPS in June: 1.036 OPS in July: .970 He clearly has some ability, even if he is no superstar. He makes the MLB minimum. He's a lefty. Willingham is at .281/25/73, with an .869 OPS which is an average corner OF. (30th among NL OF in OBA; 22d in SLG.) . Not bad, but not hard to replace, especially considering his horrid defense that gives back some of the runs he scores on offense. No .869 is a well above average corner OF. He currently ranks 9th out of all LFer's in the Majors in OPS, and 16th in OPS for all outfielders. And I'd say about 90% of the guys in front of him are premier players. Now I don't know about you, but I don't see our FO going out and acquiring one of these players, based on our current financial situation. Back to the question, I could easily part with Jake, the question is though, I really don't know how much value Jake would have. Most teams have a pretty good hitting 1st baseman, and right now I'd have to say Jake is a below average 1st baseman both offensively and defensively. I'd like to see the Hammer at 1st base personally, he's been an infielder pretty much his whole baseball career, and from the little I've seen of him at 1st he seems to look much more comfortable there. At this point we probably shouldn't be trading any of them unless we are offered an young impact CFer. Sorry Farmer, but you are wrong. According to ESPN, he ranks 10th, far from the leaders, and therefore is BELOW average for a LF. Here are the stats: Sortable Batting RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB BA OBP SLG OPS 1 Luke Scott Hou 166 23 63 18 5 7 26 2 1 26 .380 .469 .675 1.144 2 Barry Bonds SF 344 69 91 20 0 24 69 3 0 113 .265 .457 .532 .989 3 Matt Holliday Col 560 105 187 44 4 29 100 9 5 38 .334 .390 .582 .972 4 Chris Duncan StL 243 53 74 11 3 18 38 0 0 26 .305 .374 .597 .970 5 Jason Bay Pit 536 97 153 29 3 34 106 11 2 94 .285 .392 .541 .933 6 Alfonso Soriano Was 613 112 174 39 2 45 93 40 16 63 .284 .356 .574 .930 7 David Dellucci Phi 247 41 72 14 5 13 38 1 3 28 .291 .371 .547 .918 8 Carlos Lee Mil 388 60 111 18 0 28 81 12 2 38 .286 .347 .549 .896 9 Adam Dunn Cin 528 95 126 23 0 40 92 6 0 104 .239 .368 .509 .878 10 Josh Willingham Fla 466 59 131 28 1 25 73 2 0 52 .281 .363 .506 .869 and Matt Diaz and Pat Burrell could pass him (they're at .852 and .861) The point being, of course, that he is easy to replace offensively, and a big negative defensively, a BELOW AVERAGE LF.
September 21, 200619 yr Catch- Scott, Duncan, and Dellucci do not have enough bats to qualify No catch; you botched it. They are all starting OF. They don't need to "qualify" for anything.
September 21, 200619 yr Catch- Scott, Duncan, and Dellucci do not have enough bats to qualify No catch; you botched it. They are all starting OF. They don't need to "qualify" for anything. I didnt botch anything.... espn has "qualified" and non "qualified"... they dont have enough bats this season to qualify for anything, so why even look that way? They have half as many at bats where the amount of XBH they hit skew their OPS They each have around 240 at bats or so
September 21, 200619 yr I recall another rookie Marlins outfielder who went to the playoffs and was among the team's best OVERALL players throughout his tenure despite routinely playing terrible defense. ok...I'lll bite. Who? Miguel Cabrera One might say Sheffield, but he took to the outfield fast, but he was below-average with the Marlins and still is now.
September 21, 200619 yr Catch- Scott, Duncan, and Dellucci do not have enough bats to qualify No catch; you botched it. They are all starting OF. They don't need to "qualify" for anything. I didnt botch anything.... espn has "qualified" and non "qualified"... they dont have enough bats this season to qualify for anything, so why even look that way? They have half as many at bats where the amount of XBH they hit skew their OPS They each have around 240 at bats or so You have no idea what you are talking about. They are their teams' starting OF. Whether they "qualify" for something or not is irrelevant, and 240 at bats is plenty to assess a hitter. And at any rate, the point still stands. Even without them he is in 7th place by a hair, in danger of slipping to 9th, in a 16 team league. And he is way behind the leaders. That is average by any defintition. That, plus his horrid defense, makes him below average, and easy to replace. Give up your Willingham defenses. He will be a DH in the AL by this time next year. At least I hope so, for his sake, as that's the only way he will be in MLB for long, and the only place he would have any real value.
September 21, 200619 yr 240 at bats is plenty to assess a hitter. :lol :lol :lol You don't like being wrong do you? :blink:
September 21, 200619 yr Catch- Scott, Duncan, and Dellucci do not have enough bats to qualify No catch; you botched it. They are all starting OF. They don't need to "qualify" for anything. I didnt botch anything.... espn has "qualified" and non "qualified"... they dont have enough bats this season to qualify for anything, so why even look that way? They have half as many at bats where the amount of XBH they hit skew their OPS They each have around 240 at bats or so You have no idea what you are talking about. They are their teams' starting OF. Whether they "qualify" for something or not is irrelevant, and 240 at bats is plenty to assess a hitter. And at any rate, the point still stands. Even without them he is in 7th place by a hair, in danger of slipping to 9th, in a 16 team league. And he is way behind the leaders. That is average by any defintition. That, plus his horrid defense, makes him below average, and easy to replace. Give up your Willingham defenses. He will be a DH in the AL by this time next year. At least I hope so, for his sake, as that's the only way he will be in MLB for long, and the only place he would have any real value. Using the "qualifier" on ESPN, Willingham is 9th in the majors in LF. I refuse to consider Luke Scott as a qualifier for he is hitting .382/.470/.700 and anyone with half a brain knows that is an aberation.(and im sure i botched that spelling). But sure, continue to believe that he is average out there. That's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion.... just dont have to be a douchebag about it. :thumbup
September 21, 200619 yr No way should the Marlins give up on Jacobs yet. :mischief Explain? Know something we dont? His strong points: OPS in 30 games with the Mets in '05: 1.085 OPS in AA in '04: .965 AA All Star AA Eastern League MVP Limited MLB experience before this year OPS in June: 1.036 OPS in July: .970 He clearly has some ability, even if he is no superstar. He makes the MLB minimum. He's a lefty. Willingham is at .281/25/73, with an .869 OPS which is an average corner OF. (30th among NL OF in OBA; 22d in SLG.) . Not bad, but not hard to replace, especially considering his horrid defense that gives back some of the runs he scores on offense. No .869 is a well above average corner OF. He currently ranks 9th out of all LFer's in the Majors in OPS, and 16th in OPS for all outfielders. And I'd say about 90% of the guys in front of him are premier players. Now I don't know about you, but I don't see our FO going out and acquiring one of these players, based on our current financial situation. Back to the question, I could easily part with Jake, the question is though, I really don't know how much value Jake would have. Most teams have a pretty good hitting 1st baseman, and right now I'd have to say Jake is a below average 1st baseman both offensively and defensively. I'd like to see the Hammer at 1st base personally, he's been an infielder pretty much his whole baseball career, and from the little I've seen of him at 1st he seems to look much more comfortable there. At this point we probably shouldn't be trading any of them unless we are offered an young impact CFer. Sorry Farmer, but you are wrong. According to ESPN, he ranks 10th, far from the leaders, and therefore is BELOW average for a LF. Here are the stats: Sortable Batting RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB BA OBP SLG OPS 1 Luke Scott Hou 166 23 63 18 5 7 26 2 1 26 .380 .469 .675 1.144 2 Barry Bonds SF 344 69 91 20 0 24 69 3 0 113 .265 .457 .532 .989 3 Matt Holliday Col 560 105 187 44 4 29 100 9 5 38 .334 .390 .582 .972 4 Chris Duncan StL 243 53 74 11 3 18 38 0 0 26 .305 .374 .597 .970 5 Jason Bay Pit 536 97 153 29 3 34 106 11 2 94 .285 .392 .541 .933 6 Alfonso Soriano Was 613 112 174 39 2 45 93 40 16 63 .284 .356 .574 .930 7 David Dellucci Phi 247 41 72 14 5 13 38 1 3 28 .291 .371 .547 .918 8 Carlos Lee Mil 388 60 111 18 0 28 81 12 2 38 .286 .347 .549 .896 9 Adam Dunn Cin 528 95 126 23 0 40 92 6 0 104 .239 .368 .509 .878 10 Josh Willingham Fla 466 59 131 28 1 25 73 2 0 52 .281 .363 .506 .869 and Matt Diaz and Pat Burrell could pass him (they're at .852 and .861) The point being, of course, that he is easy to replace offensively, and a big negative defensively, a BELOW AVERAGE LF. :blink: 3 of those guys don't even have 250 at-bats, and another isn't even in the national league anymore. You take those guys out and take a look at the guys ahead of him and tell me he's a below average LFer.
September 21, 200619 yr No way should the Marlins give up on Jacobs yet. :mischief Explain? Know something we dont? His strong points: OPS in 30 games with the Mets in '05: 1.085 OPS in AA in '04: .965 AA All Star AA Eastern League MVP Limited MLB experience before this year OPS in June: 1.036 OPS in July: .970 He clearly has some ability, even if he is no superstar. He makes the MLB minimum. He's a lefty. Willingham is at .281/25/73, with an .869 OPS which is an average corner OF. (30th among NL OF in OBA; 22d in SLG.) . Not bad, but not hard to replace, especially considering his horrid defense that gives back some of the runs he scores on offense. No .869 is a well above average corner OF. He currently ranks 9th out of all LFer's in the Majors in OPS, and 16th in OPS for all outfielders. And I'd say about 90% of the guys in front of him are premier players. Now I don't know about you, but I don't see our FO going out and acquiring one of these players, based on our current financial situation. Back to the question, I could easily part with Jake, the question is though, I really don't know how much value Jake would have. Most teams have a pretty good hitting 1st baseman, and right now I'd have to say Jake is a below average 1st baseman both offensively and defensively. I'd like to see the Hammer at 1st base personally, he's been an infielder pretty much his whole baseball career, and from the little I've seen of him at 1st he seems to look much more comfortable there. At this point we probably shouldn't be trading any of them unless we are offered an young impact CFer. Sorry Farmer, but you are wrong. According to ESPN, he ranks 10th, far from the leaders, and therefore is BELOW average for a LF. Here are the stats: Sortable Batting RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB BA OBP SLG OPS 1 Luke Scott Hou 166 23 63 18 5 7 26 2 1 26 .380 .469 .675 1.144 2 Barry Bonds SF 344 69 91 20 0 24 69 3 0 113 .265 .457 .532 .989 3 Matt Holliday Col 560 105 187 44 4 29 100 9 5 38 .334 .390 .582 .972 4 Chris Duncan StL 243 53 74 11 3 18 38 0 0 26 .305 .374 .597 .970 5 Jason Bay Pit 536 97 153 29 3 34 106 11 2 94 .285 .392 .541 .933 6 Alfonso Soriano Was 613 112 174 39 2 45 93 40 16 63 .284 .356 .574 .930 7 David Dellucci Phi 247 41 72 14 5 13 38 1 3 28 .291 .371 .547 .918 8 Carlos Lee Mil 388 60 111 18 0 28 81 12 2 38 .286 .347 .549 .896 9 Adam Dunn Cin 528 95 126 23 0 40 92 6 0 104 .239 .368 .509 .878 10 Josh Willingham Fla 466 59 131 28 1 25 73 2 0 52 .281 .363 .506 .869 and Matt Diaz and Pat Burrell could pass him (they're at .852 and .861) The point being, of course, that he is easy to replace offensively, and a big negative defensively, a BELOW AVERAGE LF. When did MLB contract 11 teams? 10th of 30 (it's 22 qualified with 3.1PA per team game) is above average (median). And of those 22, the mean is .282/.364/.487 for an OPS of .851 and the 1.8OBP weighted OPS of 1.142. Placing Willingham ABOVE AVERAGE. Willingham is 8th in OPS among the 16 NL LFers with 300 or more PAs. Representing on part of the median. And above the mean for these 16.
September 21, 200619 yr Ricky Nolasco is the only guy that can go from that list. I think we saw what happened when he wildness catches up with him, and we could be able to get a very piece for him if he is sent to the right team. No way you trade any of the others IMO Yeah, you are right. No Need to hold on to him like St. Louis did with Rick Ankiel, cause they thought his wildness could be controlled and his upside was just too great. Move him now before he decides he wants to become an outfielder for our minor league team.
September 21, 200619 yr Ricky Nolasco is the only guy that can go from that list. I think we saw what happened when he wildness catches up with him, and we could be able to get a very piece for him if he is sent to the right team. No way you trade any of the others IMO Yeah, you are right. No Need to hold on to him like St. Louis did with Rick Ankiel, cause they thought his wildness could be controlled and his upside was just too great. Move him now before he decides he wants to become an outfielder for our minor league team. are you really comparing him to Ankiel?
September 21, 200619 yr See, here'd be my "trade value" breakdown: Utterly and Completely Untouchable Miguel Cabrera Hanley Ramirez Anibal Sanchez Scott Olsen Oh wait...you're offering that? OK, we can talk Dontrelle Willis Dan Uggla Jeremy Hermida Josh Johnson Josh Willingham Yeah, we'll talk about him, but it won't be cheap Ricky Nolasco Taylor Tankersley He's our guy, but we'll listen Miguel Olivo Here's what we're offering, what you got? Mike Jacobs I'd have to go with this... Utterly and Completely Untouchable Miguel Cabrera Hanley Ramirez Anibal Sanchez Scott Olsen Dan Uggla Jeremy Hermida Oh wait...you're offering that? OK, we can talk Josh Johnson Josh Willingham Taylor Tankersley Yeah, we'll talk about him, but it won't be cheap Dontrelle Willis Ricky Nolasco He's our guy, but we'll listen Miguel Olivo Here's what we're offering, what you got? Mike Jacobs Dan Uggla is completely untouchable IMO. It's not like we need any more prospects for the farm, and there's no player in this league that can produce his numbers for that price at second base. I also think Hermida is still untouchable. There's just too much risk to trade him away. I can just imagine us trading him for an immediate impact player and watching him become the next Joe Mauer at the plate. I don't see Tankersley going ANYWHERE, but he's not an untouchable because if there's a big-time player available and he's a key piece of the deal, he's going to be gone. And I think Willis will attract just about every team in the league that thinks they have something to legitimitely offer for him, and I think the Marlins will definitely consider all offers.
September 21, 200619 yr I'm just going to say that it is amazing to me that with this season almost wrapped up, most say that we should keep ALL of our position player and ALL of our starting rotation. This faith is not unwarranted. The Marlins are going to be in an unbelievable position over the next few years to pick and choose among our position players and starting pitchers to keep some and trade those that don't fit (and those trades will be for top of the line prospects) as they become arbitration eligible. This team is in a position to be able to replenish our system for years with prospects from just our starters this year alone. This doesn't even take into account our prospects still in the minors. The fact we have a very good chance to make the playoffs next year with only a few additions to our bullpen, a legitimate centerfielder and resigning one veteran in Wes Helms (probably not necessary, but I'd love to see the guy back as a Marlin in 2007) should scare the rest of the NL. Unless the FO manages to severely screw the Marlins through stupid trades, we will be in a position to be perennial playoff fixtures from next season on though the end of this decade at the least. That said, we should hold onto most of the team next season as their trade value is not very high right now and even if we held onto almost everyone minus Abercrombie and some relievers we will be in a very good position to get at least a Wild Card berth in 2007.
September 21, 200619 yr Willingham is at .281/25/73, with an .869 OPS which is an average corner OF. (30th among NL OF in OBA; 22d in SLG.) . Not bad, but not hard to replace, especially considering his horrid defense that gives back some of the runs he scores on offense. No .869 is a well above average corner OF. He currently ranks 9th out of all LFer's in the Majors in OPS, and 16th in OPS for all outfielders. And I'd say about 90% of the guys in front of him are premier players. Now I don't know about you, but I don't see our FO going out and acquiring one of these players, based on our current financial situation. Back to the question, I could easily part with Jake, the question is though, I really don't know how much value Jake would have. Most teams have a pretty good hitting 1st baseman, and right now I'd have to say Jake is a below average 1st baseman both offensively and defensively. I'd like to see the Hammer at 1st base personally, he's been an infielder pretty much his whole baseball career, and from the little I've seen of him at 1st he seems to look much more comfortable there. At this point we probably shouldn't be trading any of them unless we are offered an young impact CFer. And we're not even accounting for ballpark factors, which makes his year even more remarkable given his price.
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