Ive always showed my ID when I go and vote. I dont see the huge issue with making voters show that they are who they say they are.

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible. Therefore, anything that MUST be used in order to vote ought to be provided to voters free of cost. If it could be guaranteed that these ID cards would be provided in a free and easy manner, then I think it's a good idea. And by easy manner, I mean that you can't have it so that poor folks have to get a ride across town just to pick up one of these cards. They may simply not have the resources to do that. On the flip side, if allowing ready access to these ID cards means that our government has to shell out an inordinate amount of tax dollars, then is it worth it?

 

Just as we can all probably agree that voting should be a free activity, I think we can likewise agree that eliminating voter fraud is a good idea. And if ID cards can accomplish that goal, then it's something worth thinking about. But this may be one of those good ideas that proves too difficult to put into practice. Passing a law requiring ID cards without having first devised a program for the delivery of these cards is a pretty piss poor idea, if you ask me.

there is a cost already associated with voting - there is a cost associated with anything

 

IDs are not expensive - i have a hard time believing that people cannot buy an ID - and if that is really the case god forbig I ever catch them buying soda, beer, cigarettes, etc instead of the ID - if people value voting it's not a big deal to get to work

What about someone's right to remain anonymous to the degree he chooses as balanced with their right to vote? Voting is a right, not a privilege. Disparagement of that right shouldnt be easily pushed around.

 

If it could be guaranteed that these ID cards would be provided in a free and easy manner, then I think it's a good idea. And by easy manner, I mean that you can't have it so that poor folks have to get a ride across town just to pick up one of these cards. They may simply not have the resources to do that. On the flip side, if allowing ready access to these ID cards means that our government has to shell out an inordinate amount of tax dollars, then is it worth it?

 

 

 

See thats the fear. In Ohio, accustions were made that Ken Blackwell intentionally put polling places in disproportiate amounts and in terrible locations. So what happens when people make the accusations, the same people in this thread who throw out the free ID idea start laughing them off and start saying crap about how they need to get a job so they can ride across town. The accusations get thrown to the wayside.

 

there is a cost already associated with voting - there is a cost associated with anything

 

IDs are not expensive - i have a hard time believing that people cannot buy an ID - and if that is really the case god forbig I ever catch them buying soda, beer, cigarettes, etc instead of the ID - if people value voting it's not a big deal to get to work

 

 

You dont understand. We don't charge people to exercise their rights. Ever. You ever heard of a poll tax? I hope the resident libertarians find something wrong with the above post.

What about someone's right to remain anonymous to the degree he chooses as balanced with their right to vote? Voting is a right, not a privilege. Disparagement of that right shouldnt be easily pushed around.

 

Voting is NOT a right it is a privilege. Ex-felons can not vote unless they appeal to the state and get their voting privilege re-instated.

 

What do you mean their right to remian annonymous? When I go tot the voting booth they check my name to say that I voted already. The state and anyone who wants to know can find out that I voted, you voted or anyone else voted.

 

Again, I dont see the big deal in proving that you are who you say you are.

 

OMG dont show them ID cause Big Brother will get you!

there is a cost already associated with voting - there is a cost associated with anything

 

IDs are not expensive - i have a hard time believing that people cannot buy an ID - and if that is really the case god forbig I ever catch them buying soda, beer, cigarettes, etc instead of the ID - if people value voting it's not a big deal to get to work

 

 

you know i wonder....

 

 

who would be the first to legally challenge this as a form of taxation in order to vote, which is illegal according to the 24th amendment.

i know of the poll tax and this isn't that - unfotunately we will in an age where it's pretty easy to steal someone elses identity and voter integrity has gone down

 

here in AZ you need to prove citizenship anytime you partake in a government related activity

 

i don't think the cost of a state ID imposes a great hardship on anyone and i was also saying to not be fooled by thinking there aren't already costs associated with voting

 

You dont understand. We don't charge people to exercise their rights. Ever.

 

why do you need a permit for a gun?

 

we pay all the time for our basic rights - we pay taxes constantly so we can have access to resources within this country

i know of the poll tax and this isn't that - unfotunately we will in an age where it's pretty easy to steal someone elses identity and voter integrity has gone down

 

here in AZ you need to prove citizenship anytime you partake in a government related activity

 

i don't think the cost of a state ID imposes a great hardship on anyone and i was also saying to not be fooled by thinking there aren't already costs associated with voting

 

You dont understand. We don't charge people to exercise their rights. Ever.

 

why do you need a permit for a gun?

 

we pay all the time for our basic rights - we pay taxes constantly so we can have access to resources within this country

 

 

 

but it could be identified as a form of a poll tax, unless the id cards are easily accessible (and free) for each and every citizen in the united states.

 

otherwise, its quite possible a legal challenge will occur.

 

 

i know of the poll tax and this isn't that - unfotunately we will in an age where it's pretty easy to steal someone elses identity and voter integrity has gone down

 

here in AZ you need to prove citizenship anytime you partake in a government related activity

 

i don't think the cost of a state ID imposes a great hardship on anyone and i was also saying to not be fooled by thinking there aren't already costs associated with voting

 

You dont understand. We don't charge people to exercise their rights. Ever.

 

why do you need a permit for a gun?

 

we pay all the time for our basic rights - we pay taxes constantly so we can have access to resources within this country

 

 

ya but those taxes are not explicitly against the united states law and the constitution we hold so dear to our hearts.

i don't think the cost of a state ID imposes a great hardship on anyone and i was also saying to not be fooled by thinking there aren't already costs associated with voting

 

 

You've said this twice now. What are the costs associated with voting? Is this just one of those economists things, like opportunity costs? Because short of that, as far as I know, no one should ever have to shed a dime on voting...and if they do, then something is wrong. The only thing I can think of is transportation costs, but there's usually no shortage of people offering free rides--at least on the big election days. And come to think of it, public transportation ought to be free on election days. In any case, whether or not there are any costs associated with voting, there ought not to be...and if there simply must be, then they should be kept as low as possible.

 

And in response to the first part of your statement here, it was stated upthread that ID's can cost as much as $85. Now, I don't know about that, but for the sake of the arguement let's just say an ID costs $20. I promise you that some people--even some hard-working people--really cannot afford to spend that much. That's just a fact.

i was just getting to the point that we do pay for rights all the time

i was just getting to the point that we do pay for rights all the time

 

 

Even if we accept that as true, though, you have to believe that voting costs should be kept as low as possible, right? It's not much of a democracy if some people have to balance their right to vote against their need to pay the electricity bill.

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible.

 

You have to pay to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, and some liberal states cannot outlaw guns completely because that would be unconstitutional, so they simply make the process of being able to purchase one so tedious and long with countless expensive and utterly worthless garbage fee's that most people can't afford. Even right here in Florida, The Gunshine state which is also a 'SHALL ISSUE' state, I had to pay more than $140 in licensing fee's for a simple CCW and it takes more than 4 months. It is exponentially worse in other areas of the country for just simply being able to purchase a firearm.

FYI - Here is a wikipedia on Prop 200 that passed here in the 2000 election - does a decent job of giving a pretty balanced view of it - most other stuff out there is heavily slanted one way or the other

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_Arizona_Now

 

for what it's worth I voted no to this measure - however, in there has been little outcry about it since it went through

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible.

 

You have to pay to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, and some liberal states cannot outlaw guns completely because that would be unconstitutional, so they simply make the process of being able to purchase one so tedious and long with countless expensive and utterly worthless garbage fee's that most people can't afford. Even right here in Florida, The Gunshine state which is also a 'SHALL ISSUE' state, I had to pay more than $140 in licensing fee's for a simple CCW and it takes more than 4 months. It is exponentially worse in other areas of the country for just simply being able to purchase a firearm. I'm not an anti-gun person by any means. But voting doesn't kill people.

I think a more pressing need in regards to fraud is to require the computer voting machines to print reciepts for every vote cast.

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible.

 

You have to pay to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, and some liberal states cannot outlaw guns completely because that would be unconstitutional, so they simply make the process of being able to purchase one so tedious and long with countless expensive and utterly worthless garbage fee's that most people can't afford. Even right here in Florida, The Gunshine state, I had to pay more than $140 in licensing fee's for a simple CCW and it takes more than 4 months. It is exponentially worse in other areas of the country for just simply being able to purchase a firearm.

 

You may have a point regarding the legality of forcing you to pay simply for the right to buy a gun when that is a right already given to you by the Constitution. I suggest you create a thread about it, if it bothers you enough. But regarding voting rights, I'm not sure you have a point, unless you are saying that you think it is permissible to charge people to excercise their voting rights. I just don't think anyone here would actually support that position, and if we could all agree on just this one thing, we might be able to enjoy a more fruitful debate on this entire matter.

an ID can get that much if you want a commercial license or something to that extent - but a basic no frills state ID is usually pretty cheap

 

a drivers license in AZ costs between $10 and $25 and lasts 40 years - in NY drivers licenses are very expensive - but you can get a state ID that will last 5 years for around $10 or one that last 9 years for $13

 

these aren't prohibitive costs

 

as for the current costs - there are transportation costs & opportunity costs - some hourly employees have to work their schedules around it and may not get a full weeks worth of pay - if you value voting it isn't an issue

 

I think a more pressing need in regards to fraud is to require the computer voting machines to print reciepts for every vote cast.

 

 

i can get behind this - the electronic voting machines are kind of scary

an ID can get that much if you want a commercial license or something to that extent - but a basic no frills state ID is usually pretty cheap

 

a drivers license in AZ costs between $10 and $25 and lasts 40 years - in NY drivers licenses are very expensive - but you can get a state ID that will last 5 years for around $10 or one that last 9 years for $13

 

these aren't prohibitive costs

 

as for the current costs - there are transportation costs & opportunity costs - some hourly employees have to work their schedules around it and may not get a full weeks worth of pay - if you value voting it isn't an issue

 

 

I think a more pressing need in regards to fraud is to require the computer voting machines to print reciepts for every vote cast.

 

 

i can get behind this - the electronic voting machines are kind of scary

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt an employer required to give you time off to vote if you so desire to exercise this right?

 

 

 

 

I think a more pressing need in regards to fraud is to require the computer voting machines to print reciepts for every vote cast.

 

 

and do what with them?

have a printout as a hardcopy of all votes cast incase something buggy happens electronically

 

and employers are required to give time off - however it doesn't help the hourly employee who can't make up the time elsewhere in their week

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible.

 

You have to pay to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, and some liberal states cannot outlaw guns completely because that would be unconstitutional, so they simply make the process of being able to purchase one so tedious and long with countless expensive and utterly worthless garbage fee's that most people can't afford. Even right here in Florida, The Gunshine state, I had to pay more than $140 in licensing fee's for a simple CCW and it takes more than 4 months. It is exponentially worse in other areas of the country for just simply being able to purchase a firearm.

 

You may have a point regarding the legality of forcing you to pay simply for the right to buy a gun when that is a right already given to you by the Constitution. I suggest you create a thread about it, if it bothers you enough. But regarding voting rights, I'm not sure you have a point, unless you are saying that you think it is permissible to charge people to excercise their voting rights. I just don't think anyone here would actually support that position, and if we could all agree on just this one thing, we might be able to enjoy a more fruitful debate on this entire matter.

My point is, the democrats can't have it both ways. They try and restrict the 2nd Amendment so much so that it's nearly impossible in some states to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights unless you're willing to wait months and pay absurd licensing fee's which are sometimes hundreds of dollars, yet god forbid the evil republicans want people to simply have to show a simple photo ID when they vote to make sure they're not trying to fraudulently vote.

 

And you have to show a photo ID every single time you exercise your 2nd Amendment rights to make sure you are who you say you are, so why shouldn't you have to do the same for the 15th Amendment to make sure you are who you say you are? Is the right to self defense for the preservation of your life and your families lives not as important as the right to vote? ESPECIALLY with tens of millions of illegal immigrants in this country who are ineligible to vote who i'm sure will probably try and vote, it is absolutely essential that we make sure people who are voting are who they claim to be.

 

Simply put, there are a literally millions upon millions of people in this country who are not eligible to vote and it would be a crime and a disservice to the American people if we did not take every step necessary to make sure that only American citizens are able to cast a vote. I'm sorry, but it is not too much to ask someone to prove that they're an American citizen when exercising their 15th Amendment right which can change the course of the nation.

Say I am poor and I don't have a driver's liscense and I'm black. I have a valid voter card and the only photo ID I have is an old high school ID card from a couple years ago. I'm one of the many, many poor black people that Democrats comb neighborhoods for to give them a ride to their local polls.

 

The person working the desk at the local poll knows that I'm part of a van full of poor black people that the Democrats drove over.

 

I'm turned away from the polls.

 

There is a much greater risk of a situation like this happening if this bill is passed

 

I say screw this bill. I'd rather have an absolutely miniscule amount of fraudulent votes than to have many times more poor people turned away from the polls.

 

Thats the exact disgusting reason why Democrats don't want this to pass. Democrats basically use a race for votes and herd them like mindless cattle to vote. Disgusting.

 

One of the most racist things in this country is the idea that because you are black, your vote belongs to the Democratic Party.

 

Your logic makes no sense are you implying that people get turned away now because they are known to be a group of minority voters?

 

Poverty has nothing to do with anything if this were passed as cheap, photo ID cards would be distributed to those that wanted to vote. So you'd actually be letting the minority take an active part in the process instead of dumbing the process down and turning a free car ride and some McDonalds coupons into votes.

 

It's scary to me that we are going with the 'honor system' with something this big.

Your second amendment rights have never been extended to apply to states via the 14th amendment but the right to vote has. Listen, cities do ban guns. Why doesnt the NRA challenge this? Because they know they will lose. This isnt about liberal vs conservative. This is what the Supreme Court has clearly established. Stop making the 2nd amendment analogy. It has absolutely no legal weight. Dont listen to me. Listen to the frikkin Supreme Court.

First of all, voting should be free. I don't know who would disagree with that. Forcing people to spend money for the right to vote is probably the most undemocratic idea possible.

 

You have to pay to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, and some liberal states cannot outlaw guns completely because that would be unconstitutional, so they simply make the process of being able to purchase one so tedious and long with countless expensive and utterly worthless garbage fee's that most people can't afford. Even right here in Florida, The Gunshine state, I had to pay more than $140 in licensing fee's for a simple CCW and it takes more than 4 months. It is exponentially worse in other areas of the country for just simply being able to purchase a firearm.

 

You may have a point regarding the legality of forcing you to pay simply for the right to buy a gun when that is a right already given to you by the Constitution. I suggest you create a thread about it, if it bothers you enough. But regarding voting rights, I'm not sure you have a point, unless you are saying that you think it is permissible to charge people to excercise their voting rights. I just don't think anyone here would actually support that position, and if we could all agree on just this one thing, we might be able to enjoy a more fruitful debate on this entire matter.

My point is, the democrats can't have it both ways. They try and restrict the 2nd Amendment so much so that it's nearly impossible in some states to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights unless you're willing to wait months and pay absurd licensing fee's which are sometimes hundreds of dollars, yet god forbid the evil republicans want people to simply have to show a simple photo ID when they vote to make sure they're not trying to fraudulently vote.

 

And you have to show a photo ID every single time you exercise your 2nd Amendment rights to make sure you are who you say you are, so why shouldn't you have to do the same for the 15th Amendment to make sure you are who you say you are? Is the right to self defense for the preservation of your life and your families lives not as important as the right to vote? ESPECIALLY with tens of millions of illegal immigrants in this country who are ineligible to vote who i'm sure will probably try and vote, it is absolutely essential that we make sure people who are voting are who they claim to be.

 

No offense intended, but now you're sounding like a gun nut. Yes, the right to self defense is as important as the right to vote. Now, you own like 50 guns, and I'm guessing they're not all for self-defense. I'm also guessing you have never actually used a single one of those guns for self-defense. However, if they start letting people buy guns without at least requiring a photo ID and at least a minimal background check, you may need all 50 of those guns before long. We're getting way off subject here, but I hope you see my point. While I might just agree with you about the absurdity of the licensing fees, I think, from a practical standpoint, requiring some kind of identification for the purchase of a gun is pretty hard to argue with. And furthermore, if you can afford to purchase a gun, you can probably afford the ID to go with it.

 

And, as I said upthread, I agree completely with the principle of making people show ID in order to vote. I just don't agree with passing such a law before having in place a program that will allow people free and easy access to those IDs. Fraudulent voting is not yet such a big problem that we ought to go trampling on the most fundamental principles of this nation. There may come a time where the number of fraudulent votes necessitates such a law, but we don't appear to be even so much as approaching that point right now.

It's scary to me that we are going with the 'honor system' with something this big.

 

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen.

 

With countless millions of illegals in this country on top of countless others who are ineligible to vote, we cannot afford to take this risk. If even 1% of the millions of illegal immigrants in this country tried to vote and the "honor system" was in place, it could have catastrophic results.

....or people under the age of 16, or those who's right to vote has been taken away, people voting more then once, etc.

 

It's a big problem at the smaller levels and less when you go up the ladder, but as we've seen recently in tight elections, that could effect something major.

 

But let's just have a hands off approach and then when it gets to a boiling point down the road, try to band aid that mess with politicians who may have been aided with false votes.