nope. I don't want him. We have enough strikeouts already. The guy hits .230 for chrissake..but obviously he'll hit you 30 homers. not worth it. no thanks.

 

 

Batting Average is irrelevant. The reason we don't want him is because he isn't a CF.

nope. I don't want him. We have enough strikeouts already. The guy hits .230 for chrissake..but obviously he'll hit you 30 homers. not worth it. no thanks.

 

 

Batting Average is irrelevant. The reason we don't want him is because he isn't a CF.

so true!

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

Left field defense is about as important to a baseball team as wiggly feel.

 

I think Adam Dunn would be maddening to watch, but I wouldn't dismiss it because he K's a lot. He has amazing patience and huge power. If we didn't have to give up much for him, I'd consider it.

 

PS: OBP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BA

 

Learn some baseball, kids.

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

Left field defense is about as important to a baseball team as wiggly feel.

 

I think Adam Dunn would be maddening to watch, but I wouldn't dismiss it because he K's a lot. He has amazing patience and huge power. If we didn't have to give up much for him, I'd consider it.

 

PS: OBP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BA

 

Learn some baseball, kids.

 

If you don't think leftfield defense isn't important I am guessing you didn't watch the meltdown in Atlanta. And where did I say anything about his batting average? He would improve our lineup but he isn't worth what it would take to get him for one season.

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

Left field defense is about as important to a baseball team as wiggly feel.

 

I think Adam Dunn would be maddening to watch, but I wouldn't dismiss it because he K's a lot. He has amazing patience and huge power. If we didn't have to give up much for him, I'd consider it.

 

PS: OBP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BA

 

Learn some baseball, kids.

 

If you don't think leftfield defense isn't important I am guessing you didn't watch the meltdown in Atlanta. And where did I say anything about his batting average?

The BA comment was a general one, but regardless, someone that hits 40+ HRs and gets on base at a .380+ clip can afford to have a few screwups in the field because the balance of the game is still on offense.

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

Left field defense is about as important to a baseball team as wiggly feel.

 

I think Adam Dunn would be maddening to watch, but I wouldn't dismiss it because he K's a lot. He has amazing patience and huge power. If we didn't have to give up much for him, I'd consider it.

 

PS: OBP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BA

 

Learn some baseball, kids.

 

If you don't think leftfield defense isn't important I am guessing you didn't watch the meltdown in Atlanta. And where did I say anything about his batting average?

The BA comment was a general one, but regardless, someone that hits 40+ HRs and gets on base at a .380+ clip can afford to have a few screwups in the field because the balance of the game is still on offense.

 

Generally, I agree with you. But poor defense blows games and we saw that on multiple occasions this season. Maybe it is just me, but I would like the Marlins to have more than one position manned by someone that has above average defensive skills. Hopefully that player will be our CF next season.

 

BTW, what would you give up for one season of Adam Dunn in teal?

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

Left field defense is about as important to a baseball team as wiggly feel.

 

I think Adam Dunn would be maddening to watch, but I wouldn't dismiss it because he K's a lot. He has amazing patience and huge power. If we didn't have to give up much for him, I'd consider it.

 

PS: OBP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BA

 

Learn some baseball, kids.

 

If you don't think leftfield defense isn't important I am guessing you didn't watch the meltdown in Atlanta. And where did I say anything about his batting average?

The BA comment was a general one, but regardless, someone that hits 40+ HRs and gets on base at a .380+ clip can afford to have a few screwups in the field because the balance of the game is still on offense.

 

Generally, I agree with you. But poor defense blows games and we saw that on multiple occasions this season. Maybe it is just me, but I would like the Marlins to have more than one position manned by someone that has above average defensive skills. Hopefully that player will be our CF next season.

 

BTW, what would you give up for one season of Adam Dunn in teal?

I'd probably give up someone like Pinto or Mitre or Nolasco and one of our "hitting" prospects. He's a one-year rental, but if it's a one-year rental, I'd rather have Vernon Wells.

I would give them Nolasco, Jacobs, and Petit for him.

 

 

Insert Dunn at 1st base....make Jose Garcia a starter (Bostick, others, Pinto competition out of ST)......we would be awesome!

 

 

1- Hanley

2- Uggla

3- Dunn

4- Cabs

5- Willingham

6- Hermida (yes I think he'll be good next year)

7- STUD young CFer

8- Olivo

 

 

SP1- Willis

SP2- Johnson

SP3- Sanchez

SP4- Olsen

SP5- Garcia/ other

 

 

We would win it all! Bat Dunn before Cabs because Dunn will walk 100 times.

 

For some reason my message was deleted but I basically wrote that is not worth trading for a $10.5 million one-year rental (since there is unlikely the Marlins would pick up his $13 million '08 option). He would improve our lineup, but is one of the few players that would be a negligible defensive upgrade in LF over Willingham.

 

 

 

Dunn would play 1st for us.

I would give them Nolasco, Jacobs, and Petit for him.

 

And they would go HAHA. You aren't getting Adam Dunn for those guys. If he's made avaliable, they'd get a lot better young SP then that.

I would think the Reds would never get that much (WMM's suggestion and MarlinsLou reply) for Dunn considering his low production numbers, high strikeout rate and $10.50 million salary for 2007. And if that isn't bad enough the acquiring team will be on the hook for $13.50 million in 2008 if they want to keep his services beyond '07. (While he can be bought out of 2008 for $500k, essentially that means your paying $11 million for one season of mediocre production.)

 

Dunn's RBIs are woeful in comparison to other 35-40 HR hitters, being the obly one with less than 100 rbi. For example, Frank Thomas who had 39 HRs had 114 rbi, Andruw Jones with 41 HR had 129 rbi. There is an anomoly, Alfonso Soriano, but other than him, Dunn's productivity is horrendous in light of his HRs. Everyone else with 35 or more HRs had significantly more RBIs that AD.

Dunn is one of those guys that is too patient with RISP and that's the reason for his low run production. I wouldn't want him even if we got him for nothing. He's not worth the money he makes.

I'll do it, w/e it take for the marlins to add their name in the record book. Yes even if the record happen to be the most K's :plaindance

 

:|

I would think the Reds would never get that much (WMM's suggestion and MarlinsLou reply) for Dunn considering his low production numbers, high strikeout rate and $10.50 million salary for 2007. And if that isn't bad enough the acquiring team will be on the hook for $13.50 million in 2008 if they want to keep his services beyond '07. (While he can be bought out of 2008 for $500k, essentially that means your paying $11 million for one season of mediocre production.)

 

Dunn's RBIs are woeful in comparison to other 35-40 HR hitters, being the obly one with less than 100 rbi. For example, Frank Thomas who had 39 HRs had 114 rbi, Andruw Jones with 41 HR had 129 rbi. There is an anomoly, Alfonso Soriano, but other than him, Dunn's productivity is horrendous in light of his HRs. Everyone else with 35 or more HRs had significantly more RBIs that AD.

 

I have a very different interpretation for you.

 

First, Dunn has a career .893 OPS and in a major down year where he hit under .200 for two months still produced a .855 OPS. That is not low or mediocre production. He'll be a .900+ OPS type player for the next 5 seasons easy. That's awesome.

 

Second, Soriano's RBIs are not an anomoly. They are low because the Nationals use him incorrectly and bat him leadoff, instead of 4th-5th to take advantage of his slugging. He'd have 30 more RBI's on the season if Nick Johnson and Ryan Zimmerman were in front of him while scoring near the same amount of runs because he creates runs himself with all the extra base hits and steals. Soriano's "lack" of production is due to the stupidity of Frank Robinson, not a fluke. This stupidity in player use is also apparent with Adam Dunn.

 

Dunn is not a 3-4-5 hitter despite the HR. Adam Dunn is not a run producer. You are completely correct in pointing out the RBI totals as lower than Andruw types who hit similiar amounts of HR, and that is easily attributed to Dunn's (1) strikeout totals and not creating RBI's with putting the ball in play, and more importantly (2), his penchant to walk as a large part of his OBP versus AVG furthering the whole balls in play issue. Adam Dunn is simply an unusual OBP monster, who when he actually hits it, hits in a mile. This is not a dependable RBI producer, but it's an insanely productive player because he does a number of things very very well. How do you take advantage of this?

 

Adam Dunn should bat 2nd. You have his awesome OBP in front of your main 3-4 run producers and you don't limit his RBI potential (like Soriano) because you have (presumably) another strong OBP in front of him with the # 1 hitter - who if is a base stealer like Hanley or Freel, will get a chance to read a pitcher better and create havok on the base paths because Dunn sees A LOT of pitches. He would perenially score 120+ runs batting in front of a guy like Cabrera, and still knock in 90+ guys himself in the # 2 spot. You increase Adam Dunn's value by using him correctly. People are just enamoured with HR and think if you hit 40, that means you are have to hit in the middle. That's totally incorrect. You shouldn't bash Dunn because the Reds are dumb.

 

If you can't take advantage of Dunn's slugging in producing runs because of the low AVG/high BB numbers, you take a part of a game which is equally as reliable - OBP - to determine his lineup placement. It's that easy. Adam Dunn is absolutely awesome and is completely worth the money he makes. Now for the Marlins, he might be a bad fit FINANCIALLY and COMPENSATION wise, because regardless of what you think, Dunn is not being traded for Nolasco/Jacobs plus spare parts (and if I'm wrong, you make that trade and deal with the salary hit later because that is highway robbery for the Fish), but PRODUCTION and ABILITY with Adam Dunn is not and will never be an issue for years to come.

 

I was about to post this, but I just checked his stats after I typed all of that to see whats up with him lifetime and maybe I'm totally wrong on a splits level.

 

2003-2005 splits

# 2 133 AB, .989 OPS

# 3 148 AB, .928

# 4 621 AB, .861

# 5 533 AB, .928

# 6 212 AB, .948

 

2006 splits

# 2 123 AB, 1.010

# 3 78 AB, .886

# 4 169 AB, .748

# 5 178 AB, .792

 

Nope. This is how you maximize Adam Dunn and make him worth your while. This is not a mediocre/low producing ball player by any stretch of the imagination.

How's this Lou...he can hit 2nd for your team.

 

I love ya, but I read your comments and the thing crossing my mind is "this is a perfect example of why stats lie". Having a guy batting second who is almost guaranteed to strikeout 185-200 times a season can't be a good idea. And the only reason his OPS is so out of whack with the rest of his stats and production is the number of homeruns. Playing somewhere else you have to think his HRs go down, and when they do his OPS plummets.

 

I'm not here to say you don't have a valid POV, because you do. I just think you're enamored with one stat instead of considering them in total.

Seeing how far his homeruns go on average, I see no reason why his homeruns would go down

 

he never gets cheated

I love ya, but I read your comments and the thing crossing my mind is "this is a perfect example of why stats lie". Having a guy batting second who is almost guaranteed to strikeout 185-200 times a season can't be a good idea. And the only reason his OPS is so out of whack with the rest of his stats and production is the number of homeruns. Playing somewhere else you have to think his HRs go down, and when they do his OPS plummets.

 

I'm not here to say you don't have a valid POV, because you do. I just think you're enamored with one stat instead of considering them in total.

 

I mentioned specifically:

 

R, RBI, AVG, BB, OBP, SLUG, HR, K, plus his effect on batters around him, contact hitting in general, and historical and recent lineup placement production. I'm trying to figure out what I'm enarmored with.

 

Come on man. Out of whack OPS because he hits 40+ HR? You speak like that's a negative! He's been hitting that many his entire career so you can't say it's flukey. You want to argue a guy isn't a good # 2 hitter because he strikeouts a lot, ignoring the fact his lifetime OBP is .380!! I mean seriously. Come on. And like Ramp says, he doesn't get cheated. He does hit 57% of his HR (last 4 years) at home versus the road, but you are still talking minimum 35+ seasons playing elsewhere if that stat holds up, with the crazy OBP.

 

Like I said before, it's financial and compensation reasons. It is not ability. Adam Dunn is awesome and it's absolutely foolish to think otherwise. If anyone is enamored with one stat, it's you. And it's strikeouts.

How's this Lou...he can hit 2nd for your team.

 

I love ya, but I read your comments and the thing crossing my mind is "this is a perfect example of why stats lie". Having a guy batting second who is almost guaranteed to strikeout 185-200 times a season can't be a good idea. And the only reason his OPS is so out of whack with the rest of his stats and production is the number of homeruns. Playing somewhere else you have to think his HRs go down, and when they do his OPS plummets.

 

I'm not here to say you don't have a valid POV, because you do. I just think you're enamored with one stat instead of considering them in total.

 

Holy crap, so you're saying a .989 OPS is a bad thing because he's a #2 hitter? Wow, you do realize that the traditional batting order nonsense is complete and utter crap. You put high-OBP guys at #2 regardless if they have 40HR power or 4HR power.

 

 

I would think the Reds would never get that much (WMM's suggestion and MarlinsLou reply) for Dunn considering his low production numbers, high strikeout rate and $10.50 million salary for 2007. And if that isn't bad enough the acquiring team will be on the hook for $13.50 million in 2008 if they want to keep his services beyond '07. (While he can be bought out of 2008 for $500k, essentially that means your paying $11 million for one season of mediocre production.)

 

Dunn's RBIs are woeful in comparison to other 35-40 HR hitters, being the obly one with less than 100 rbi. For example, Frank Thomas who had 39 HRs had 114 rbi, Andruw Jones with 41 HR had 129 rbi. There is an anomoly, Alfonso Soriano, but other than him, Dunn's productivity is horrendous in light of his HRs. Everyone else with 35 or more HRs had significantly more RBIs that AD.

 

I have a very different interpretation for you.

 

First, Dunn has a career .893 OPS and in a major down year where he hit under .200 for two months still produced a .855 OPS. That is not low or mediocre production. He'll be a .900+ OPS type player for the next 5 seasons easy. That's awesome.

 

Second, Soriano's RBIs are not an anomoly. They are low because the Nationals use him incorrectly and bat him leadoff, instead of 4th-5th to take advantage of his slugging. He'd have 30 more RBI's on the season if Nick Johnson and Ryan Zimmerman were in front of him while scoring near the same amount of runs because he creates runs himself with all the extra base hits and steals. Soriano's "lack" of production is due to the stupidity of Frank Robinson, not a fluke. This stupidity in player use is also apparent with Adam Dunn.

 

Dunn is not a 3-4-5 hitter despite the HR. Adam Dunn is not a run producer. You are completely correct in pointing out the RBI totals as lower than Andruw types who hit similiar amounts of HR, and that is easily attributed to Dunn's (1) strikeout totals and not creating RBI's with putting the ball in play, and more importantly (2), his penchant to walk as a large part of his OBP versus AVG furthering the whole balls in play issue. Adam Dunn is simply an unusual OBP monster, who when he actually hits it, hits in a mile. This is not a dependable RBI producer, but it's an insanely productive player because he does a number of things very very well. How do you take advantage of this?

 

Adam Dunn should bat 2nd. You have his awesome OBP in front of your main 3-4 run producers and you don't limit his RBI potential (like Soriano) because you have (presumably) another strong OBP in front of him with the # 1 hitter - who if is a base stealer like Hanley or Freel, will get a chance to read a pitcher better and create havok on the base paths because Dunn sees A LOT of pitches. He would perenially score 120+ runs batting in front of a guy like Cabrera, and still knock in 90+ guys himself in the # 2 spot. You increase Adam Dunn's value by using him correctly. People are just enamoured with HR and think if you hit 40, that means you are have to hit in the middle. That's totally incorrect. You shouldn't bash Dunn because the Reds are dumb.

 

If you can't take advantage of Dunn's slugging in producing runs because of the low AVG/high BB numbers, you take a part of a game which is equally as reliable - OBP - to determine his lineup placement. It's that easy. Adam Dunn is absolutely awesome and is completely worth the money he makes. Now for the Marlins, he might be a bad fit FINANCIALLY and COMPENSATION wise, because regardless of what you think, Dunn is not being traded for Nolasco/Jacobs plus spare parts (and if I'm wrong, you make that trade and deal with the salary hit later because that is highway robbery for the Fish), but PRODUCTION and ABILITY with Adam Dunn is not and will never be an issue for years to come.

 

I was about to post this, but I just checked his stats after I typed all of that to see whats up with him lifetime and maybe I'm totally wrong on a splits level.

 

2003-2005 splits

# 2 133 AB, .989 OPS

# 3 148 AB, .928

# 4 621 AB, .861

# 5 533 AB, .928

# 6 212 AB, .948

 

2006 splits

# 2 123 AB, 1.010

# 3 78 AB, .886

# 4 169 AB, .748

# 5 178 AB, .792

 

Nope. This is how you maximize Adam Dunn and make him worth your while. This is not a mediocre/low producing ball player by any stretch of the imagination.

By the way this is an absolutely outstanding post. Too bad like 2% of this board will read it. I just wanted to let you know, you make a fantastic argument.

Adam Dunn should bat 2nd.

 

 

Lou gets a cookie. Dunn could play 1B I suppose. But again CF is the primary concern for this team.

I would like him at 2nd but I would like Baldelli on the team alot more. We only have so many cookies we can give out of the jar to get what we want

I would like him at 2nd but I would like Baldelli on the team alot more. We only have so many cookies we can give out of the jar to get what we want

 

Baldelli is a much better fit financially, compensation in trade, and position of need. We'll find out in the winter meetings which outfielder Tampa dangles and what kind of pitcher they expect back in a trade. I have a feeling Tampa will ask for nothing less than one of Olsen, JJ, or Anibal. I don't see Nolasco getting a significant trade done if he's the main piece.

I would like him at 2nd but I would like Baldelli on the team alot more. We only have so many cookies we can give out of the jar to get what we want

 

Baldelli is a much better fit financially, compensation in trade, and position of need. We'll find out in the winter meetings which outfielder Tampa dangles and what kind of pitcher they expect back in a trade. I have a feeling Tampa will ask for nothing less than one of Olsen, JJ, or Anibal. I don't see Nolasco getting a significant trade done if he's the main piece.

The D-Rays are not the most reasonable organization to trade with in the majors. Lets look elsewhere if they want they know the Marlin's ph#

Rather than hitting Dunn 2nd due to his high OBP I would keep him 3rd, 4th or 5th but would make him be more aggressive with RISP which would better utilize his power and would improve run production. In his career with no one on he walks once every 8 PAs but with RISP he walks once every 4 PAs. With the added aggressiveness his RISP OBP would go down but his run production would increase.

Allow me to quote "myself" because everyone seemed to miss it, so busy were they to condemn me for being wrong in their judgement. I said...

 

"...I'm not here to say you don't have a valid POV, because you do. "

 

For me 40 homeruns, a .230 batting average and $11 million for one year isn't worth a starting pitcher and your starting first baseman who combined with make under $700,000 in 2007.

 

You have your POV, I had mine. Somehow I think there's room for both.

Batting average so overrated.

 

For me, 40 home runs, 100 RBIs, the best teammate you will ever meet, and a guy about to enter his prime is pretty damn good.