Willis is a wonderful player, fun to watch and enjoyable. But, he doesnt "draw more" even as a fan favorite for us. He is a huge name though and well respected. He is one of the better lefties in the NL and if our pitching was healthy we would have depth there (yet it is not healthy).

 

I think it really depends on the future of the team and what our needs are for what will happen with willis.

 

 

Now if we traded for Salty we would still need a CF.

Trading Willis is no holiday

BY ISRAEL GUTIERREZ

igutierrez@MiamiHerald.com

Marlins Dontrelle Willis runs hard on a ground-out in the second inning against the Phillies last Thursday.

Walter Michot / Miami Herald Staff

Marlins Dontrelle Willis runs hard on a ground-out in the second inning against the Phillies last Thursday.

 

* Mets' 4th is Olsen's undoing

 

They say Memorial Day in baseball is the unofficial day when pennant races can be acknowledged.

 

It's OK, therefore, for Yankees fans to begin freaking out because their team is 12 ? games behind the Red Sox in the American League East, and it's just as OK for Red Sox fans to begin freaking out because they're only 12 ? games ahead of the Yankees.

 

For fans of the budget-conscious, World-Series-or-bust Marlins, they might be breaking out in an unofficial nervous sweat for a different but unfortunately familiar reason. It's Memorial Day and, after getting swept by the National League East-leading Mets on Sunday, the Marlins aren't in a race to speak of. And if they remain in this gray area where reaching .500 is more of a goal than catching the wild-card-leading Braves, then it won't be long before a sore subject becomes a reality once again: trading away their best players.

 

It should be no surprise that the first name off the lips of baseball experts when it comes to the subject of forecasting soon-to-be available pitchers happens to be the best pitcher in Marlins history. Even with his slightly inflated 4.80 ERA, Dontrelle Willis is a quality left-handed starting pitcher, which is always a hot baseball commodity. Toss in the fact he almost won the Cy Young Award just two seasons ago and still has a lengthy career in front of him, and Willis could easily be the most sought-after player for contending teams come trade time.

 

It's not as if trading Willis is a big secret, or even a touchy subject around the Marlins. Willis has jokingly yelled ''Don't trade me!'' when certain front-office members pass through the clubhouse. But it might not be much of a joke for long.

 

PRICING TALENT

 

Through arbitration next offseason, Willis' salary could reach as high as eight figures, assuming he brings down that ERA and finishes anywhere between the 12 victories he had last season and the 22 from two seasons ago. And a team that is remarkably still without a home won't be willing to make that kind of payment.

 

For that matter, Miguel Cabrera likely will be facing the same kind of payday this offseason, but the thought of trading both franchise centerpieces is almost too much for any reasonable sports fan to handle this early in the season. It is just Memorial Day, after all.

 

There is a way to avoid the entire subject, however. It involves significant winning streaks, remarkable performances, career years and magical runs back into the playoff race.

 

It's certainly not unprecedented. The Marlins did it last year. As faint as the hopes might sit after the Mets showed just how wide the gap is between them and the Marlins (New York had four starters out of the lineup because of injury or just rest, and Marlins starter Scott Olsen still was lauding the depth of the Mets lineup Sunday), the hole the fish has dug for itself is nowhere near as deep as last season's.

 

Last year at this time, the Marlins stood at 17-33, having considered it an accomplishment to have partially recovered from a dismal 11-31 start. By the second week of September, the team was two games above .500 and the talk of baseball for having blitzed its way back into the playoff hunt.

 

Recoveries like that don't happen all the time. Hardly ever, actually. Fortunately for this group of Marlins, the team is just four games below the break-even point and doesn't require a historical run to be significant again.

 

First-year manager Fredi Gonzalez hasn't seen the true potential of his group, but he does know what it takes to grab some momentum.

 

''Consistent pitching,'' Gonzalez said. ``That's what momentum's all about is your next day's starter.''

 

So it doesn't help that two of Gonzalez's starters, Josh Johnson and Ricky Nolasco, have pitched a combined 21 1/3 innings (all from Nolasco).

 

TIME TO WORRY?

 

And consistent pitching will be a lot harder for the Marlins to achieve if Willis is wearing a Mets uniform in August.

 

It might not be June, but it's difficult for Marlins fans not to consider the possibility of losing the most unique face this franchise has seen.

 

If it's a rallying cry the team is waiting for, maybe it's time for a ''Do it for Dontrelle'' campaign.

 

Because, unofficially, it's not too early to start freaking out.

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/baseball/story/120612.html

Some of you are sounding ridiculous.

 

Almost as bad as bringing back Juan Pierre because "he has heart."

 

Gag.

 

 

 

This coming from a guy who is constantly whining about "personal attacks" on this board.

Pierre is 10 times better than anything the Marlins have in their entire organization as a CF! Still, the Marlins can't afford to trade Willis in the division too...no matter what they get back! I hate the thought of Willis starting 4 or 5 games against us every season. It's bad enough watching LoDuca and Delgado kick out butts repeatedly. If the Marlins are going to trade Willis, pitch him to an American League Team.

Pierre is 10 times better than anything the Marlins have in their entire organization as a CF! Still, the Marlins can't afford to trade Willis in the division too...no matter what they get back! I hate the thought of Willis starting 4 or 5 games against us every season. It's bad enough watching LoDuca and Delgado kick out butts repeatedly. If the Marlins are going to trade Willis, pitch him to an American League Team.

pierre is being paid more then any player on the roster

The D-Train helped the Marlins make the playoffs in 2003, but he was horrible in the post-season. In 7 games (2 starts), he was 0-1 with a 8.57 ERA and a 1.97 WHIP. In 12.2 innings, he allowed 15 hits, walked 10 batters and struck out 10. McKeon yanked him out of the rotation because he was downright awful. A lot of people on here exaggerate his role on the 2003 club. Hiring Jack McKeon was the turning point.

 

Pierre is 10 times better than anything the Marlins have in their entire organization as a CF! Still, the Marlins can't afford to trade Willis in the division too...no matter what they get back! I hate the thought of Willis starting 4 or 5 games against us every season. It's bad enough watching LoDuca and Delgado kick out butts repeatedly. If the Marlins are going to trade Willis, pitch him to an American League Team.

pierre is being paid more then any player on the roster

 

I just meant playing ability. I know Pierre isn't worth what he's making right now.

The D-Train helped the Marlins make the playoffs in 2003, but he was horrible in the post-season. In 7 games (2 starts), he was 0-1 with a 8.57 ERA and a 1.97 WHIP. In 12.2 innings, he allowed 15 hits, walked 10 batters and struck out 10. McKeon yanked him out of the rotation because he was downright awful. A lot of people on here exaggerate his role on the 2003 club. Hiring Jack McKeon was the turning point.

 

Pierre is 10 times better than anything the Marlins have in their entire organization as a CF! Still, the Marlins can't afford to trade Willis in the division too...no matter what they get back! I hate the thought of Willis starting 4 or 5 games against us every season. It's bad enough watching LoDuca and Delgado kick out butts repeatedly. If the Marlins are going to trade Willis, pitch him to an American League Team.

pierre is being paid more then any player on the roster

 

I just meant playing ability. I know Pierre isn't worth what he's making right now.

ehh I am not big on his playing ability either honestly.

 

Poor defensively, specially with that arm. an Empty SLG% for the OPS. His SB are alright but not that great when you consider the lack of other abilities. His overall package isnt anything that special. Luis Castillo was far better and far more important in the past.

 

Do we need a CF though? Yep, either one in the minors like the one that ramp likes (carroll I think he is), or drafting one or trading for one.

 

Willis for Jeff Clement (value down for poor play last year and so far this year as they keep rushing him for some strange reason), and Adam Jones with something would work for me anyday.

 

Otherwise Baldelli's gotta be cheaper in price now then he was in the offseason.

For those of you who may have missed 2003 as you kept looking to see if you had sprouted any pubes, Dontrelle was the spark that ignited the fish and carried them to September. He is responsible, more than any other player, for the World Series Championship that year. Sorry if you can't get past the stats, but that's a fact. In 2005, he won 20 games and came in 2nd in Cy Young balloting. In 2004, 2005, 2006, and again this year, he's a valuable leader to a young pitching staff, and the whole team. In a league filled with drones, he's the only player that plays the game like it's a game. Enjoy him for as long as he's on the team. Stop treating the trading of Dontrelle as if it's part of a video game. He's more than just stats. Even I, as much as I love having him on the team, would acept a trade, but it would have to be some absolutely extraordinary package..PLUS another incredible player on top of that.

Major yawn right there. That was the epitome of a team effort WS. You can look at every single player and say he is just as responsible as the next.

 

Anyway, if the Marlins are blown away with an offer for Willis, they need to move him because he isn't going to be here long term. That and we could use a young catcher and CF(or SS if Hanley eventually moves out there)

I'm not surprised at all by some of the other comments made on this thread after this post. I see that there are some reading comprehension challenged members. But I am surprised at you Ramp, as I thought you were a writer.

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The above says that Dontrelle was the spark that ignited the team. It doesn't say that he was solely responsible, the best player, or anything like that. Of course it's a team effort, and there were 24 others. Every position player and pitcher. You can rank them however you'd like.

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And for the one post that mentions Dontrelle not being a fan draw. Wrong. In the entire history of the Marlins there has been only one player who drew SUBSTANTIAL numbers of fans to the stadium. Dontrelle in 2003. After his first 3-4 starts, there would normally be 10000 EXTRA people in the stands on a Dontrelle night.

The D-Train helped the Marlins make the playoffs in 2003, but he was horrible in the post-season. In 7 games (2 starts), he was 0-1 with a 8.57 ERA and a 1.97 WHIP. In 12.2 innings, he allowed 15 hits, walked 10 batters and struck out 10. McKeon yanked him out of the rotation because he was downright awful. A lot of people on here exaggerate his role on the 2003 club. Hiring Jack McKeon was the turning point

Gag me with a fork. Yea he was obviously tired in the playoffs, but that shouldn't take away what he did in the regular season.

And for the one post that mentions Dontrelle not being a fan draw. Wrong. In the entire history of the Marlins there has been only one player who drew SUBSTANTIAL numbers of fans to the stadium. Dontrelle in 2003. After his first 3-4 starts, there would normally be 10000 EXTRA people in the stands on a Dontrelle night.

 

I didn't say it, but dude, have you looked around the stadium when Dontrelle's pitching? No one notices, no one cares.

 

There was the little stretch in '03 when fans boosted games he pitched, and there was the game in '04 when it was Dontrelle-Randy Johnson on a Sunday and we got 40,000+, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" impact, and Dontrelle doesn't get any new fans out.

 

Is there a case to be made that trading him will make some of the few casual fans left say "ah, f*** it" and give up on the team? Yeah, definitely, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that by and large, the people that populate the stadium now have pretty inelastic demand for a local MLB team, and no matter what they do, there'll be around 8,000 a night...so if people want to make Dontrelle an attendance messiah, prove it, but not with past figures, rather, future action.

It should be no surprise that the first name off the lips of baseball experts when it comes to the subject of forecasting soon-to-be available pitchers happens to be the best pitcher in Marlins history. Even with his slightly inflated 4.80 ERA, Dontrelle Willis is a quality left-handed starting pitcher, which is always a hot baseball commodity. Toss in the fact he almost won the Cy Young Award just two seasons ago and still has a lengthy career in front of him, and Willis could easily be the most sought-after player for contending teams come trade time. It's not as if trading Willis is a big secret, or even a touchy subject around the Marlins. Willis has jokingly yelled ''Don't trade me!'' when certain front-office members pass through the clubhouse. But it might not be much of a joke for long. .... Through arbitration next offseason, Willis' salary could reach as high as eight figures, assuming he brings down that ERA and finishes anywhere between the 12 victories he had last season and the 22 from two seasons ago. And a team that is remarkably still without a home won't be willing to make that kind of payment.

Posted May 28, by Ben Maller

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http://www.benmaller.com/mlb_rumors_notes

 

 

Foxsports just stating the same thing pretty much

It should be no surprise that the first name off the lips of baseball experts when it comes to the subject of forecasting soon-to-be available pitchers happens to be the best pitcher in Marlins history. Even with his slightly inflated 4.80 ERA, Dontrelle Willis is a quality left-handed starting pitcher, which is always a hot baseball commodity. Toss in the fact he almost won the Cy Young Award just two seasons ago and still has a lengthy career in front of him, and Willis could easily be the most sought-after player for contending teams come trade time. It's not as if trading Willis is a big secret, or even a touchy subject around the Marlins. Willis has jokingly yelled ''Don't trade me!'' when certain front-office members pass through the clubhouse. But it might not be much of a joke for long. .... Through arbitration next offseason, Willis' salary could reach as high as eight figures, assuming he brings down that ERA and finishes anywhere between the 12 victories he had last season and the 22 from two seasons ago. And a team that is remarkably still without a home won't be willing to make that kind of payment.

Posted May 28, by Ben Maller

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Discuss in the Forums | Link

 

 

http://www.benmaller.com/mlb_rumors_notes

best pitcher based on what? wins I guess

 

as for stuff, I can think of probably at least 5 starters better

 

 

Foxsports just stating the same thing pretty much

And for the one post that mentions Dontrelle not being a fan draw. Wrong. In the entire history of the Marlins there has been only one player who drew SUBSTANTIAL numbers of fans to the stadium. Dontrelle in 2003. After his first 3-4 starts, there would normally be 10000 EXTRA people in the stands on a Dontrelle night.

 

I didn't say it, but dude, have you looked around the stadium when Dontrelle's pitching? No one notices, no one cares.

 

There was the little stretch in '03 when fans boosted games he pitched, and there was the game in '04 when it was Dontrelle-Randy Johnson on a Sunday and we got 40,000+, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" impact, and Dontrelle doesn't get any new fans out.

 

Is there a case to be made that trading him will make some of the few casual fans left say "ah, f*** it" and give up on the team? Yeah, definitely, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that by and large, the people that populate the stadium now have pretty inelastic demand for a local MLB team, and no matter what they do, there'll be around 8,000 a night...so if people want to make Dontrelle an attendance messiah, prove it, but not with past figures, rather, future action.

Swifty. It seems like something's changed in you in the off-season. You're too pessimistic instead of the realist that you were, and you've picked up this antagonistic attitude. No need for this.

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Read my post. I clearly said that Dontrelle was a draw in 2003. Nothing more. We had a growing fan base, and in 2003, during the heat of the summer, Dontrelle drew big time. He did also draw somewhat in 2004 and 2005, but after Loria's fire-sale attendance has dropped to it's abysmal level. But the proof that Dontrelle can draw is there. Is there any other player in Marlins history that you can say was a draw, like Dontrelle. Given decent ownership, we'd have a more competitive team, with more carry-over players that the fans get attached to, and attendance in general would be much better, and I think Dontrelle would draw again.

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And I vividly remember that Randy Johnson game. I believe that it was a Friday night. Johnson is someone that I have done a lot of business with, and that night he offered me tickets. I show up at will call expecting that I'm going to be getting the best, and instead the bast$@# leaves me seats in sec. 437, 20th row. Worst seats I've ever sat in. That cost him 10 grand the next deal we did.

I thought it was a Wednesday

I thought it was a Wednesday

 

Sunday day-game in '04, night game in '03.

 

Here's the '04 recap:

 

http://www.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?...sp&c_id=fla

A good place to trade Dontrelle might be Seattle.

 

We could potentially get players like C Jeff Clement (catcher of the future), RP J.J. Putz, and maybe another starting prospect in exchange. That would be a fair deal to me, and we wouldn't have to trade inside the division.

I thought it was a Wednesday

 

Sunday day-game in '04, night game in '03.

 

Here's the '04 recap:

 

http://www.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?...sp&c_id=fla

You're both right. It was the 2003 game that I had the "Randy" tickets for. And that was a Wednesday night. In 2004, Randy spent hours in my store, along with a couple of teammates. It was right after the perfect game, and my son went out of his way to go buy a Hallmark "Nobody's perfect, but you were" Congrats card for Randy in the hope that he'd garner a freebie or personalized autograph at least. Johnson took the card, read it, and tossed it over his shoulder into the corner with no comment. Same corner he would go ahead and spit his chaw into. No bucket. Right on the carpet. Total A$$hole. My son did get his autograph, and Randy paid for it again.

Is there any other player in Marlins history that you can say was a draw, like Dontrelle. Given decent ownership, we'd have a more competitive team, with more carry-over players that the fans get attached to, and attendance in general would be much better, and I think Dontrelle would draw again.

 

Agreed on point B. There's a stigma with the team again, and neither Dontrelle, nor Miggy, nor Sheffy, nor Cliff, nor Luis could shake it.

 

As for point A, that's a very tough argument to make. We're talking about a starting pitcher, who starts/appears in about 20% of the team's games per year. I'd argue that no starting pitcher has a tangible impact on the box office at the end of the season if he only pitches half his games at home per year (so roughly 16 home games). That means there are 65 games in which he did not participate and thus had no impact.

 

Conversely, I'd argue that the "star" position player for any team during a given year is the main "draw." Fans come to see him play 78 times or so per year, if John loves pitcher X and right-fielder Y and they both play for his home team, John should reasonably spend more money watching rightfielder Y playing as he would go see him play with different pitchers on the mound.

 

Is it easier to look at a spike of 2-4,000 people per game when pitcher X pitches and say he is the draw? Absolutely, no question there, but is it not also reasonable to say that if pitcher Z is incredibly lucky and ends up making all of his home starts on either a Friday or Saturday because of fortuitous scheduling while pitcher X pitches the majority of his games during the week could the argument not be made that both pitchers had an equal impact at the box office since the team outperformed season averages on the day they were pitching?

 

So, to give you the totally smart ass answer, yes, there is a player who convincingly outdrew Dontrelle. Gary Sheffield was the "star" player in the two years the franchise averaged over 30,000 fans per game ('93, '94) and the worst average attendance in a season in which Sheffield was here is roughly equal to the best average attendance in any year Dontrelle was here.

 

However, I do understand what you're saying, but all I'm saying is the value of a "star" pitcher as a gate draw is seriously overstated.

Is there any other player in Marlins history that you can say was a draw, like Dontrelle. Given decent ownership, we'd have a more competitive team, with more carry-over players that the fans get attached to, and attendance in general would be much better, and I think Dontrelle would draw again.

 

Agreed on point B. There's a stigma with the team again, and neither Dontrelle, nor Miggy, nor Sheffy, nor Cliff, nor Luis could shake it.

 

As for point A, that's a very tough argument to make. We're talking about a starting pitcher, who starts/appears in about 20% of the team's games per year. I'd argue that no starting pitcher has a tangible impact on the box office at the end of the season if he only pitches half his games at home per year (so roughly 16 home games). That means there are 65 games in which he did not participate and thus had no impact.

 

Conversely, I'd argue that the "star" position player for any team during a given year is the main "draw." Fans come to see him play 78 times or so per year, if John loves pitcher X and right-fielder Y and they both play for his home team, John should reasonably spend more money watching rightfielder Y playing as he would go see him play with different pitchers on the mound.

 

Is it easier to look at a spike of 2-4,000 people per game when pitcher X pitches and say he is the draw? Absolutely, no question there, but is it not also reasonable to say that if pitcher Z is incredibly lucky and ends up making all of his home starts on either a Friday or Saturday because of fortuitous scheduling while pitcher X pitches the majority of his games during the week could the argument not be made that both pitchers had an equal impact at the box office since the team outperformed season averages on the day they were pitching?

 

So, to give you the totally smart ass answer, yes, there is a player who convincingly outdrew Dontrelle. Gary Sheffield was the "star" player in the two years the franchise averaged over 30,000 fans per game ('93, '94) and the worst average attendance in a season in which Sheffield was here is roughly equal to the best average attendance in any year Dontrelle was here.

 

However, I do understand what you're saying, but all I'm saying is the value of a "star" pitcher as a gate draw is seriously overstated.

I never quantified the total value of Dontrelle as a draw. I was originally just rebutting the statement that Dontrelle was never a draw. This I think is a point we can agree on. He was a signifigant draw.

 

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Unfortunately, you make some good points. Even though Dontrelle could hypothetically be the bigger per game draw, as proven in the past, the position player total draw is larger. Putting myself in Loria's place, and from a totally mercenary point of view, I'd have to think that Dontrelle, if all the stars were to align, would translate into 16x10,000=160,000 EXTRA fans per season. A position player like Cabrera, even without perfect alignment of the stars, would mean 81x2-4K=160,000-320,000 EXTRA fans per season. And that's probably understating Cabrera's value. One could argue that the fans in 93 and 94 were attracted to see not Sheffield. Conine, even Chuckie Carr were attractions. And others. Now, as far as position players go, Cabrera is the one and only signifigant draw. As someone who loves both Cabs and Dontrelle and thinks that while Cabs is vastly more talented while Dontrelle is the unique special player, your points make a good argument financially for trading Dontrelle over Cabs. As much as I'd like to keep both.

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Maybe we will keep both. Maybe we'll trade both. Maybe Loria has already done irreparable harm to the franchise and the whole team will continue the cycle of being MLB's farm team.

One could argue that the fans in 93 and 94 were attracted to see not Sheffield. Conine, even Chuckie Carr were attractions. And others.

 

Come on now. Conine was a rookie in '93, Sheff was an All-Star, and still the only player in franchise history to start an All-Star game for an expansion franchise, and for the Fish. I realize that the San Diego factor was tremendous in his placement, but his star cannot be undersold. From his first day here, he was our biggest name.

 

Most popular? Likely, but of course debateable. Still, he was the big name, the best player, the headline grabber.

You mean OBP of .305, not BA right?

 

Because that is what Pierre is giving the Dodgers.

 

Nope. I'm talking his '03 numbers, actually. I could care in the least what he is doing for another team right now.

Seattle is in desperate need of pitching right now. If we move him anywhere they have to be the team that matches up the best.

 

Elite prospect: Adam Jones

Good/Okay prospect (high potential low production last 2 years): Jeff Clement

Some pitching in the minors too.

 

They have a good catcher so they dont need to keep clement, they are 3.5 out of the division only and 2nd in the WC. If they got pitching they could make their run.

 

But would they deal adam Jones?

Seattle is in desperate need of pitching right now. If we move him anywhere they have to be the team that matches up the best.

 

Elite prospect: Adam Jones

Good/Okay prospect (high potential low production last 2 years): Jeff Clement

Some pitching in the minors too.

 

They have a good catcher so they dont need to keep clement, they are 3.5 out of the division only and 2nd in the WC. If they got pitching they could make their run.

 

But would they deal adam Jones?

We're 5.5 games out and we're not even in June so I think it's a bit early to throw in the towel.

Seattle is in desperate need of pitching right now. If we move him anywhere they have to be the team that matches up the best.

 

Elite prospect: Adam Jones

Good/Okay prospect (high potential low production last 2 years): Jeff Clement

Some pitching in the minors too.

 

They have a good catcher so they dont need to keep clement, they are 3.5 out of the division only and 2nd in the WC. If they got pitching they could make their run.

 

But would they deal adam Jones?

We're 5.5 games out and we're not even in June so I think it's a bit early to throw in the towel.

 

 

agreed just saying if there was a team that made sense at least to fill our needs. It wouldnt be the mets or braves but out west.

You mean OBP of .305, not BA right?

 

Because that is what Pierre is giving the Dodgers.

 

Nope. I'm talking his '03 numbers, actually. I could care in the least what he is doing for another team right now.

Why?

 

Because alot of people gave JP a bad time here. He really wasn't all that bad. His main flaw was a weak arm but he had the speed to cover our OF. He normally led the league in SBs and IF hits. He's a hard working, blue collar, team player that can put up decent numbers in the right situation. But kids dig the long ball, so he gets bashed around here. However, that money he got with the Blue is just way too much.