Actually his main flaw was that his OBP was completely dependent on his BA.

You mean OBP of .305, not BA right?

 

Because that is what Pierre is giving the Dodgers.

 

Nope. I'm talking his '03 numbers, actually. I could care in the least what he is doing for another team right now.

Why?

 

Because alot of people gave JP a bad time here. He really wasn't all that bad. His main flaw was a weak arm but he had the speed to cover our OF. He normally led the league in SBs and IF hits. He's a hard working, blue collar, team player that can put up decent numbers in the right situation. But kids dig the long ball, so he gets bashed around here. However, that money he got with the Blue is just way too much.

 

I don't think anyone "bashed" him around here, just said the pretty obvious that his ability (or lack thereof) to take a walk means he was miscast as a top of the lineup guy.

 

If he hits .310 and he onbases at .330, no one cares, but if he hits .280 and onbases at .300, it's a backbreaker.

Actually his main flaw was that his OBP was completely dependent on his BA.

Actually his main flaw is that he has too many flaws.

I don't think anyone "bashed" him around here, just said the pretty obvious that his ability (or lack thereof) to take a walk means he was miscast as a top of the lineup guy.

 

If he hits .310 and he onbases at .330, no one cares, but if he hits .280 and onbases at .300, it's a backbreaker.

 

You mean like the numbers he put up in '04? And yet still the bashing? Disagree with ya here. He was just the guy everyone liked to blame and ridicule.

 

Actually his main flaw was that his OBP was completely dependent on his BA.

Actually his main flaw is that he has too many flaws.

 

Love it how they just come back and prove my point.

I don't think anyone "bashed" him around here, just said the pretty obvious that his ability (or lack thereof) to take a walk means he was miscast as a top of the lineup guy.

 

If he hits .310 and he onbases at .330, no one cares, but if he hits .280 and onbases at .300, it's a backbreaker.

 

You mean like the numbers he put up in '04? And yet still the bashing? Disagree with ya here. He was just the guy everyone liked to blame and ridicule.

 

People hated him in '04 because he had something like a 60% success rate in stealing.

 

That's a tremendous backbreaker too.

 

If you run 2/3 of the time you reach base, and make an out half of those times, you're "true" value to the team is in line with a guy hitting .240.

What's the difference between a .330 OBP and a .300 OBP. 18 times on base in a season. Maybe 6 runs...all season. I wouldn't call that a back-breaker. Both .300 and .330 are bad for a leadoff hitter. The bad stealing ratio was bad. That's a back-breaker. That was after he found that crazy running academy he went to. And his noodle-arm was a back-breaker. I wasn't sorry to see him go, though I wish we had him for this year anyway. I never hated on the guy. I admired his work ethic, thus my name. Not based on his play, but on his work ethic.

What's the difference between a .330 OBP and a .300 OBP. 18 times on base in a season. Maybe 6 runs...all season. I wouldn't call that a back-breaker. Both .300 and .330 are bad for a leadoff hitter. The bad stealing ratio was bad. That's a back-breaker. That was after he found that crazy running academy he went to. And his noodle-arm was a back-breaker. I wasn't sorry to see him go, though I wish we had him for this year anyway. I never hated on the guy. I admired his work ethic, thus my name. Not based on his play, but on his work ethic.

 

I'm in complete agreement with everything you say, especially wishing him over what we've got, but the 18 times on base is a huge deal if you're an effective top of the order guy.

 

If it's Juan Pierre in 2003, those extra 18 times mean maybe 10 stolen bases, which translate to maybe 7 extra runs, which wins maybe 3 more ballgames.

Actually his main flaw was that his OBP was completely dependent on his BA.

Actually his main flaw is that he has too many flaws.

Actually his main flaw is that he lacked enough above-average skills.

I don't wish him over what the Marlins have. His production is only marginally better and he is being paid a ridiculous amount. Maybe if money weren't a factor but this isn't a dream world.

 

No, they are right. To a point. I wouldn't want him now because of the $$$ and because his numbers have dropped. He did a fine job for us in '03 and '04. In '05 there was so much dissention in that clubhouse I couldn't blame anyone for having a bad season, especially younger players. But they are wrong in bashing him so hard in his first coule years here. He was a tough out. Usually putting the ball in play or working the count for a walk. Personally I would have had him batting 2nd and Castillo leading off, but I didn't get a vote. And that's more than likely where the bashing has it's true roots. Castillo was one of the Marlins Gods. Don't disrespect a Marlins God.

No, they are right. To a point. I wouldn't want him now because of the $$$ and because his numbers have dropped. He did a fine job for us in '03 and '04. In '05 there was so much dissention in that clubhouse I couldn't blame anyone for having a bad season, especially younger players. But they are wrong in bashing him so hard in his first coule years here. He was a tough out. Usually putting the ball in play or working the count for a walk. Personally I would have had him batting 2nd and Castillo leading off, but I didn't get a vote. And that's more than likely where the bashing has it's true roots. Castillo was one of the Marlins Gods. Don't disrespect a Marlins God.

 

I think you missed the entire point. Wowzers.

No, they are right. To a point. I wouldn't want him now because of the $$$ and because his numbers have dropped. He did a fine job for us in '03 and '04. In '05 there was so much dissention in that clubhouse I couldn't blame anyone for having a bad season, especially younger players. But they are wrong in bashing him so hard in his first coule years here. He was a tough out. Usually putting the ball in play or working the count for a walk. Personally I would have had him batting 2nd and Castillo leading off, but I didn't get a vote. And that's more than likely where the bashing has it's true roots. Castillo was one of the Marlins Gods. Don't disrespect a Marlins God.

 

I think you missed the entire point. Wowzers.

 

In '03 and '04 combined he had 30 more BBs than he did Ks while hitting .305 and .324. Means he was working the count and putting the ball in play. Good things tend to happen that way especially with a guy that could consistently lay down a bunt for a hit. Still I would have preferred Castillo in that lead off spot. I don't think anyone expects JP to return to those numbers, especially the '05 numbers.

That's funny because Pierre hits his best early or behind in the count.

Baldelli, Kazmir and Navarro, yea right

There have been rumblings in Florida that the Marlins have targeted Crawford if they decide to trade Dontrelle Willis. But Tampa Bay wouldn't be likely to deal Crawford for a package headed by any prominent player it couldn't keep away from free agency for at least the next three years -- the length of time it can control Crawford. Unless the Rays don't pick up Crawford's two affordable options, he can't be a free agent until after the 2010 season. Willis, on the other hand, can hit the marker after 2009.

 

? As indications mount that the Marlins at least will listen to offers on Willis, other GMs quietly are starting to (A) lobby for them to finally do that and (B) try to nudge down Willis' price tag so he's at least slightly more obtainable. "They'd be shortsighted not to look at [dealing him] now," one GM said. "Take a look. His stuff has gone backward every year. He's still a good pitcher, but he isn't what he was a couple of years ago." So does that mean this GM wouldn't be interested? "Oh," he laughed, "we definitely would."

 

lol at the bold part..

Ever notice how it's always "one" GM?

 

And how do you "lobby" the Marlins? Wine and dine Mike Hill? Send expensive Christmas presents to David Samson? Get Admin Beinfest's kid on the gotta accept list to Harvard?

 

I really like Jayson Stark, all in all he's been pretty fair with the Fish over the years butusing phrases like lobbying or "nudge down Willis' price tag so he's at least slightly more obtainable" flies in theface Stark knows will go on once the trading deadline is in sight and GMs start bidding against themselves for #3-4 starters nevermind a celebrity 2-3 guy like Willis.

 

C'mon Jayson, you know better.

There have been rumblings in Florida that the Marlins have targeted Crawford if they decide to trade Dontrelle Willis. But Tampa Bay wouldn't be likely to deal Crawford for a package headed by any prominent player it couldn't keep away from free agency for at least the next three years -- the length of time it can control Crawford. Unless the Rays don't pick up Crawford's two affordable options, he can't be a free agent until after the 2010 season. Willis, on the other hand, can hit the marker after 2009.

 

? As indications mount that the Marlins at least will listen to offers on Willis, other GMs quietly are starting to (A) lobby for them to finally do that and (B) try to nudge down Willis' price tag so he's at least slightly more obtainable. "They'd be shortsighted not to look at [dealing him] now," one GM said. "Take a look. His stuff has gone backward every year. He's still a good pitcher, but he isn't what he was a couple of years ago." So does that mean this GM wouldn't be interested? "Oh," he laughed, "we definitely would."

 

lol at the bold part..

 

 

If there was any chance in hell we could get Crawford for Dontrelle Willis I would tap-dance naked around the stadium parking lot to the Macarana.

 

 

 

and yeah the bold part is amusing when I read it too Here is the link to it all btw:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...&id=2887921

 

 

I wonder if we would consider this price perhaps with our wealth of young relievers all of a sudden?

 

We're hearing the Devil Rays have been floating the name of troubled Elijah Dukes to see whether a trade can (A) get Dukes a fresh start away from his hometown and (B) bring them a decent, badly needed bullpen arm. But clubs are understandably reluctant to deal any known quantities for a player who, despite his massive talent, is still the ultimate unknown quantity. If the Rays ever ended up releasing Dukes, "then 29 teams would line up to sign him -- or at least 20 would," one GM said. "But to trade for him, that's different." The funny thing is, from all accounts, Dukes has behaved great at the park and around the club. And when you consider the upside of trading a set-up arm for a position player with his skills, it wouldn't be a shock if some team actually made that deal at some point.

 

 

 

 

:mischief2

 

Ever notice how it's always "one" GM?

 

And how do you "lobby" the Marlins? Wine and dine Mike Hill? Send expensive Christmas presents to David Samson? Get Admin Beinfest's kid on the gotta accept list to Harvard?

 

I really like Jayson Stark, all in all he's been pretty fair with the Fish over the years butusing phrases like lobbying or "nudge down Willis' price tag so he's at least slightly more obtainable" flies in theface Stark knows will go on once the trading deadline is in sight and GMs start bidding against themselves for #3-4 starters nevermind a celebrity 2-3 guy like Willis.

 

C'mon Jayson, you know better.

 

 

I bet you that one "gm" starts with an O for the first name and a M for the second. He has been quoted in the papers with the perez >> Willis stuff and all.

 

But that is pretty funny 2003 :thumbup

It should also be noted that Drays fans are pretty funny they think that Rocco Baldelli could get them willis

I wonder if we would consider this price perhaps with our wealth of young relievers all of a sudden?

 

We're hearing the Devil Rays have been floating the name of troubled Elijah Dukes to see whether a trade can (A) get Dukes a fresh start away from his hometown and (B) bring them a decent, badly needed bullpen arm. But clubs are understandably reluctant to deal any known quantities for a player who, despite his massive talent, is still the ultimate unknown quantity. If the Rays ever ended up releasing Dukes, "then 29 teams would line up to sign him -- or at least 20 would," one GM said. "But to trade for him, that's different." The funny thing is, from all accounts, Dukes has behaved great at the park and around the club. And when you consider the upside of trading a set-up arm for a position player with his skills, it wouldn't be a shock if some team actually made that deal at some point.

 

 

I suggested Taylor Tankersly for Dukes a few days back and still think it makes sense for both teams.

Pinto for Dukes.

 

Although after the Miggy episode, I don't think Dukes has a place in this clubhouse.

I'd deal Willis for Crawford in less then a minute.

What realistically could we get Baldelli for?

What realistically could we get Baldelli for?

Atleast a top arm in the system

I wouldnt do Tank for Dukes. Dont know about anyone else.

I wouldnt do Tank for Dukes. Dont know about anyone else.

I would even if he is a nice lefty arm we have others as well.

 

Dukes - attitude problems = elite top 15 prospect in baseball 5 tool talent that could become a force (think top potential becomes albert belle).

 

 

Is his value that high? Of course not, he is a headache and a half and immature kid. But if we could get him for a lefty middle reliever I would take it. We have a lot of bullpen type arms and more coming. We dont have a lot of 5 tool OF type players.

I would do Tank for Dukes in half of a heartbeat. If that's all that it took to get it done, I'd pencil him in for tonight's lineup.

 

But then again, I was saying Anibal or JJ (They of the combined 30 Innings of 4.8 era) for BJ Upton (He of the .953 OPS) during the offseason and people scoffed. What do I know?