May 17, 200719 yr That wasnt the NL. Oops. Forgot the title of this thread. HOWEVER - throw in guys like Jeter and Tejada and Young and Peralta and Guillen... SS's these days can ALL hit!
May 17, 200719 yr Adam Everett still cant. Neither can Izturis. Jack Wilson has an empty average. Seabass will come back down to earth. Zobrist is struggling. A few more I have left out. Id say the offensive minded SS is still a work in progress, but they definantly are replacing the defense only SS.
May 17, 200719 yr That wasnt the NL. Oops. Forgot the title of this thread. HOWEVER - throw in guys like Jeter and Tejada and Young and Peralta and Guillen... SS's these days can ALL hit! "Me and my .357 career SLUG disagree vehemently" David Ecksetin is a great example of no offense, no defense SS.
May 17, 200719 yr His Hustle% is out of this world though. Hustle% > * And as representives of the lollipop guild, we'd like to welcome you to munchin land!
May 17, 200719 yr His GEQA is so high, it's not even funny. With the exception of Darrin Erstad, his GEQA is like 2 times higher than anyone in the league... It's sick.
May 17, 200719 yr Cardinals fans arent worried about Ecksteins offensive struggles this year, to paraphrase them "slumping at the plate or not, Eckstein's defense will keep him in the lineup". I laughed.
May 18, 200719 yr the NL is so stacked at SS...christ. I can't recall ever being this stacked Neither can I and I go back to the days of Dave Concepcion, Chris Spier, Dennis Menke and Maury Wills...I almost forgot Admin Bowa
May 18, 200719 yr Eck wont go and Tony isnt dumb enough to pick him. He might take his catcher seeing as nobody but McAnn should be there now, but he wont take eckstein. Reyes is the only guarentee and I think 3 will go in total. Renteria, Hardy, Rollins and Ramirez with possibly Felipe Lopez from Washington will compete for the other 3 spots. The only reason I say Lopez is if Zimmerman doesnt go from Wash. 3rd base will be cluttered with cabby, wright and a-ram so zimmerman might not get elected. 2 months left so we'll see how it goes.
May 18, 200719 yr Author Eck wont go and Tony isnt dumb enough to pick him. He might take his catcher seeing as nobody but McAnn should be there now Russell Martin and Jonny Estrada disagree
May 18, 200719 yr For all the haters, Eckstein still hit .292 last year [EXACTLY = to someone else :mischief2 ]. That's some decent production from a SS. In 2006, the starting SS's for MLB AVERAGED 141 htis/season with a BA of .279 and this year's crop is even better. I'm thinking about doing a similar list for all SS's in 1996 just to compare how much things have changed in 10 years. PosPlayer Ag G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA SS Craig Counsell 35 105 372 56 95 14 4 4 30 31 47 .255 SS Edgar Renteria 30 149 598 100 175 40 2 14 70 62 89 .293 SS Miguel Tejada 30 162 648 99 214 37 0 24 100 46 79 .330 SS Alex Gonzalez 29 111 388 48 99 24 2 9 50 22 67 .255 SS Ronny Cedeno 23 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 17 109 .245 SS Juan Uribe 26 132 463 53 109 28 2 21 71 13 82 .235 SS Felipe Lopez 26 85 343 55 92 14 1 9 30 47 66 .268 SS Jhonny Peralta 24 149 569 84 146 28 3 13 68 56 152 .257 SS Clint Barmes 27 131 478 57 105 26 4 7 56 22 72 .220 SS Carlos Guillen 30 153 543 100 174 41 5 19 85 71 87 .320 SS Hanley Ramirez 22 158 633 119 185 46 11 17 59 56 128 .292 SS Adam Everett 29 150 514 52 123 28 6 6 59 34 71 .239 SS Angel Berroa 28 132 474 45 111 18 1 9 54 14 88 .234 SS Orlando Cabrera 31 153 607 95 171 45 1 9 72 51 58 .282 SS Rafael Furcal 28 159 654 113 196 32 9 15 63 73 98 .300 SS Bill Hall 26 148 537 101 145 39 4 35 85 63 162 .270 SS Jason Bartlett 26 99 333 44 103 18 2 2 32 22 46 .309 SS Jose Reyes 23 153 647 122 194 30 17 19 81 53 81 .300 SS Derek Jeter 32 154 623 118 214 39 3 14 97 69 102 .343 SS Bobby Crosby 26 96 358 42 82 12 0 9 40 36 76 .229 SS Jimmy Rollins 27 158 689 127 191 45 9 25 83 57 80 .277 SS Jack Wilson 28 142 543 70 148 27 1 8 35 33 65 .273 SS Khalil Greene 26 122 412 56 101 26 2 15 55 39 87 .245 SS Omar Vizquel 39 153 579 88 171 22 10 4 58 56 51 .295 SS Yuniesky Betancourt 24 157 558 68 161 28 6 8 47 17 54 .289 SS David Eckstein 31 123 500 68 146 18 1 2 23 31 41 .292 SS Julio Lugo 30 73 289 53 89 17 1 12 27 27 47 .308 SS Michael Young 29 162 691 93 217 52 3 14 103 48 96 .314 SS John McDonald 311042603558733231641.223SS Royce Clayton368730536822210271953.2691345057514128412574079.279
May 18, 200719 yr For all the haters, Eckstein still hit .292 last year [EXACTLY = to someone else :mischief2 ]. That's some decent production from a SS. Yeah to go witg a .694 OPS. He hits for the emptiest batting average ever. Thats why BA is an awful stat when evaluating a player. He had an 81 OPS+, ie, he's awful.
May 18, 200719 yr For all the haters, Eckstein still hit .292 last year [EXACTLY = to someone else :mischief2 ]. That's some decent production from a SS. Yeah to go witg a .694 OPS. He hits for the emptiest batting average ever. Thats why BA is an awful stat when evaluating a player. He had an 81 OPS+, ie, he's awful. His OBP was .350? [versus .353?] That's pretty good too. He's also batting, what, 7 or 8 in the lineup? He get's on base, he puts the ball in play, and he doesn't K [41 versus 128!], ie he's a "tough out." There is value in that. Also, Eckstein was -4.1 in the clutch versus -4.3 for Ramirez [Reyes 8.8 FWIW]. So you can spin these numbers a lot of ways. My only point is that he is NOT aweful. And I am CERTAINLY not trying to take anything away from Hanley!
May 18, 200719 yr For all the haters, Eckstein still hit .292 last year [EXACTLY = to someone else :mischief2 ]. That's some decent production from a SS. Yeah to go witg a .694 OPS. He hits for the emptiest batting average ever. Thats why BA is an awful stat when evaluating a player. He had an 81 OPS+, ie, he's awful. His OBP was .350? [versus .353?] That's pretty good too. He's also batting, what, 7 or 8 in the lineup? He get's on base, he puts the ball in play, and he doesn't K [41 versus 128!], ie he's a "tough out." There is value in that. He was batting leadoff for most of last year and most of this year. .350 is respectable for a leadoff guy, but it's nothing to write home about. Hanley also slugged about 150 points higher. You cannot possibly use your brain and come to the conclusion that they are of similar value. Just because he doesn't strike out doesn't mean anything. He also doesn't walk much either. And he makes a lot of outs (especially in the leadoff spot). And he had 21 Extra Base Hits last year. Not striking out is good, I guess. But it's not enough to make up for his glaring flaws in every single other aspect of the game.
May 18, 200719 yr Not striking out is good, I guess. But it's not enough to make up for his glaring flaws in every single other aspect of the game. Sorry, added this part while you were responding: Also, Eckstein was -4.1 in the clutch versus -4.3 for Ramirez [Reyes 8.8 FWIW]. So you can spin these numbers a lot of ways. My only point is that he is NOT aweful. And I am CERTAINLY not trying to take anything away from Hanley!
May 18, 200719 yr Not striking out is good, I guess. But it's not enough to make up for his glaring flaws in every single other aspect of the game. Sorry, added this part while you were responding: Also, Eckstein was -4.1 in the clutch versus -4.3 for Ramirez [Reyes 8.8 FWIW]. So you can spin these numbers a lot of ways. My only point is that he is NOT aweful. And I am CERTAINLY not trying to take anything away from Hanley! What does clutch mean, and what do these numbers represent? I put very little value in "clutch". Eckstein is lucky he's able to punch 25 singles a month through the infield or else he wouldn't be in the league. He is not valuable at all. .350 is slightly above average, so yes, thats a positive, but his inability to hit anything but singles takes most of that value away.
May 18, 200719 yr ...his inability to hit anything but singles takes most of that value away. I think this is where we are in disagreement. Obviously, it is nice to have a guy who can hit for average AND power. Traditionally, that wasn't the SS position. When you have a guy like Eckstein who DOESN'T strike out, who fouls off a ton of pitches, who puts the ball in play, who works the count, who can drop down a sac bunt to advance a runner, who can do all these things - it really gives you a ton of flexibility as a manager. I wouldn't think twice about putting on the hit-and-run or starting the runner on a full count with Eckstein at the plate. If you want to play smart, conservative baseball - you NEED a guy like this on your team. As a Yankee fan, it is VERY frustrating to see my team getting dumped early in the post season because guys like ARod and Giambi and Posada are swinging for the fences instead of just trying to drive a ball into the OF. I was screaming at the TV screen when Torre refused to send the runner because they were waiting on the big hit. Then again, how do you ask Giambi to bunt Jeter over to 2nd or 3rd with 0 or 1 outs? Does the guy even know HOW to bunt? Over the course of the season, a big bopper looks sexy on your team and puts up lovely fantasy stats. In the real world of post season play, guys like Eckstein burn you every time.
May 18, 200719 yr Eckstein is a pop up machine. He really isnt valuable dude, not as a leadoff hitter and weakens the Cardinals MI defense.
May 18, 200719 yr ...his inability to hit anything but singles takes most of that value away. I think this is where we are in disagreement. Obviously, it is nice to have a guy who can hit for average AND power. Traditionally, that wasn't the SS position. When you have a guy like Eckstein who DOESN'T strike out, who fouls off a ton of pitches, who puts the ball in play, who works the count, who can drop down a sac bunt to advance a runner, who can do all these things - it really gives you a ton of flexibility as a manager. I wouldn't think twice about putting on the hit-and-run or starting the runner on a full count with Eckstein at the plate. If you want to play smart, conservative baseball - you NEED a guy like this on your team. As a Yankee fan, it is VERY frustrating to see my team getting dumped early in the post season because guys like ARod and Giambi and Posada are swinging for the fences instead of just trying to drive a ball into the OF. I was screaming at the TV screen when Torre refused to send the runner because they were waiting on the big hit. Then again, how do you ask Giambi to bunt Jeter over to 2nd or 3rd with 0 or 1 outs? Does the guy even know HOW to bunt? Over the course of the season, a big bopper looks sexy on your team and puts up lovely fantasy stats. In the real world of post season play, guys like Eckstein burn you every time. You take a lineup full of Ecksteins into the playoffs and I'll take a lineup full of Giambi's into the playoffs and I gaurantee you my lineup will win 99/100. Sacrifice bunts are incredibly overrated, because of how valuable an out is. With the exception of the pitching batting with no outs, I would never sacrifice bunt (unless it was like a 1-0 game and you had a guy on 2nd with 1 or no outs). It simply isn't worth it. A player is more likely to score from first with no outs than from 2nd with 1 out. The argument that the Yankees have been "waiting on the big hit" is ridiculous. The post season is about as small a sample size as there is in baseball, and anything can happen, such as Scott Podsednik hitting 2 homers in the postseason after hitting none in the regular season. I will take the Yankees lineup over the Cardinals lineup everytime in the post season. Guys like Giambi, Arod, and Posada or good players because they hit so many home runs (and doubles, and because they actually walk alot). That is where the majority of their value comes from, and they shouldn't change their style of play simply because the accepted wisdom is that "Small ball" wins in the postseason. The reason the Yankees have been bounced inthe post season is because they've run into teams with great pitching and they have no pitching to counter it.
May 18, 200719 yr "I'm sorry, was someone talking about my value? This big ole MVP trophy sometimes muffles the sounds of people mocking me." :mischief
May 18, 200719 yr "I'm sorry, was someone talking about my value? This big ole MVP trophy sometimes muffles the sounds of people mocking me." :mischief I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the fact that he was, maybe the 3rd most valuable player during the world series (Scott Rolen and Jeff Weaver > Eckstein) The fact that he won the WS MVP just highlights how overrated he is. Scott Rolen had a monster series, and he should've won, but since Eckstein hustles and uses grit to make Centerfielders slip on wet grass, whereas Rolen just lies down on homeplate during half of his at bats (that lazy non hustler).
May 18, 200719 yr Also, Eckstein was -4.1 in the clutch versus -4.3 for Ramirez [Reyes 8.8 FWIW]. So you can spin these numbers a lot of ways. My only point is that he is NOT aweful. And I am CERTAINLY not trying to take anything away from Hanley! What does clutch mean, and what do these numbers represent? Yankeefan21.. are you going to answer that????
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.