May 24, 200719 yr I would also have to agree that Jeter's perceived 'clutch' ability is overrated, thanks to Yankees fans. In the 5 game set in Boston last year [that ultimately helped them win the division], Jeter had the game-winning hit in Game 2 and the game-tieing hit wtih 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th in Game 4. That's not perception - that's reality. The run saving catch in the playoffs? Reality. The game-winning homerun in the WS on November 1 against the DBacks? Reality. The run-saving Giambi play in Oakland when the Yankees were already down 2 games to none and holding on to a 1-0 lead? Reality. The relay throw to gun down Timo Perez in the WS? Reality. The "Angel in the OF" home run against the O's? Reality. The guy has been doing this crap year after year in every imaginable situation since his rookie [ROY] year. He's a leader, he's a character guy, he's consistently among the best hitters in the game. Yet, he is CONSTANTLY criticized for not hitting enough homeruns or because he isn't a showboat at SS or crap like that. He is also COMPLETELY underrated as a baserunner. His 80% success rate is certainly above average but the one thing everyone overlooks is that he has a 100% success rate stealing 3rd. Considering my screen name, I can imagine someone calling blatant homerism but I promise you this; I would be making just as strong of an argument for Big Papi or Manny Ramirez.
May 24, 200719 yr 1) David Wright Surpised we haven't seen more of those, he was having a tough year.
May 24, 200719 yr Halladay is a good pitcher, but he's not in the same league as Santana. Yes, but Santana may be the next Warren Spahn the way he's going. Just because Johan is amazing doesn't mean Halladay's accomplishments should be belittled.
May 24, 200719 yr Halladay is a good pitcher, but he's not in the same league as Santana. And he may just be the 2nd best pitcher in the league. Thats how good Johan is. Yes, but Santana may be the next Warren Spahn the way he's going. Just because Johan is amazing doesn't mean Halladay's accomplishments should be belittled. I only mentioned Santana because Tswift said he's as good as Johan. He is not.
May 24, 200719 yr Halladay is a good pitcher, but he's not in the same league as Santana. And he may just be the 2nd best pitcher in the league. Thats how good Johan is. agreed. Johan and any other pitcher in the league should not be considered in the same category...heck, even sport
May 24, 200719 yr Kevin Youkilis belongs on any underrated list. For those of you who bet, putting a little bit of coin on Youk to win the batting title this year may prove to be very rewarding. JD Drew is overrated? By who? Who ever pumps that guy up or gives him more due than he deserves? I think some of you need to learn the definition of overrated if you feel he belongs in that category. I'd put Eric Chavez on an overrated list I'd be making along with an Alfonso Soriano. Both those guys would be high on my list. To put my .02 in the 'Jeter is overrated or SUXXX' arguments were a lame late 90s discussion piece by the people that hated him because he won and chicks like him. You don't pass Joe DiMaggio in hits at 32 if you are overrated.
May 24, 200719 yr Jimmy42Jack0 and TheDon and their perceived Jeter-haterism. :shifty Also, while I defended Andruw in an earlier thread, I'm okay with him being on this list based on Stark's criteria. He has "superstar" appeal [and salary] but has never really put up those types of numbers. I think he has some amazing talent in CF, but I have also seen him botch a bunch of plays he was trying to hotdog. I will admit that I have never been a fan of Andruw so take whatever I say regarding him with a grain of salt! i dont hate on jeter...living in massachusetts i get to see him play all the time with the red sox mass paranoia of the yankees...and the guy hasnt really been that clutch since like 2001...sure, you can point out a game winning homer somewhere in 03 or a walk off hit here or there...but really...for all the greatness that surrounds the guy within the organization...he is above average, no more, no less
May 25, 200719 yr Kevin Youkilis belongs on any underrated list. For those of you who bet, putting a little bit of coin on Youk to win the batting title this year may prove to be very rewarding. He doesn't make enough contact to sustain that average over a long period. I'd be surprised if he even finished above .300.
May 25, 200719 yr I'd say Derek Jeter and AJ Burnett. As for underrated, I'd say Ben Sheets, Roy Oswalt, and Chipper Jones.
May 25, 200719 yr Kevin Youkilis belongs on any underrated list. For those of you who bet, putting a little bit of coin on Youk to win the batting title this year may prove to be very rewarding. He doesn't make enough contact to sustain that average over a long period. I'd be surprised if he even finished above .300. Ban bet?
May 25, 200719 yr Kevin Youkilis belongs on any underrated list. For those of you who bet, putting a little bit of coin on Youk to win the batting title this year may prove to be very rewarding. He doesn't make enough contact to sustain that average over a long period. I'd be surprised if he even finished above .300. Ban bet? I'd definetly take a ban bet on the batting title, but not on .300. Plus, you already got me on a ban bet. :blink:
May 25, 200719 yr Jimmy42Jack0 and TheDon and their perceived Jeter-haterism. :shifty Also, while I defended Andruw in an earlier thread, I'm okay with him being on this list based on Stark's criteria. He has "superstar" appeal [and salary] but has never really put up those types of numbers. I think he has some amazing talent in CF, but I have also seen him botch a bunch of plays he was trying to hotdog. I will admit that I have never been a fan of Andruw so take whatever I say regarding him with a grain of salt! The numbers don't lie in reference to Jeter's defensive abilities. Lets not forget this is an "overrated" thread. Im not saying Jeter isnt a good ballplayer, just that he is overrated.
May 25, 200719 yr The numbers don't lie in reference to Jeter's defensive abilities. Lets not forget this is an "overrated" thread. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if you are going to ding someone as "overrated" in a category, I guess you need to set a base for how well regarded that person is IN that category. So, when have you ever heard Jeter mentioned in the same breath as Ozzie Guillen? He is an above average SS with above average instincts that makes great plays in crucial situations. This is how people think of Jeter. And he easily meets those expectations because he set the bar there with his play. As always, the numbers don't tell the whole story. With that said, why dont we take a look at how Jeter's D stacks up over his career versus some other SS's that can hit that get WAY more press re their D [tried to keep this mostly AL but I wanted to throw two guys in there for obvious reasons]? Player FP RFJeter .975 4.09Young .976 4.28Furcal .972 4.62Tejada .971 4.60Guillen .967 4.03Hanley .961 4.17 Obviously, the biggest difference between Jeter and any of these guys is the number of games he has played in October [more than all of them combined]. So, while he more than holds his own defensively during the regular season how do you show how a guy like this shines under pressure or in the postseason? Where's the column for "critical situation web gem?" It would be awesome if there was a way to keep track of a stat like that. I would be curious to see how a bunch of people would shake out in those situations. With this, I'll close my Jeter argument. There is obviously no way to stop the haterade. I just hope that any BASEBALL fan that takes a look at the reality of the situation sees it for what it is. He'll be eclipsing 3000 hits in less than 3 years and is the only person I can see passing Pete Rose if he can stay healthy and motivated. Who here is worried about Jeter's desire to play? :mischief2
May 25, 200719 yr Defensive stats are pointless and inherently inaccurate. The raw data is nearly impossible to objectively gather.
May 25, 200719 yr As always, the numbers don't tell the whole story. With that said, why dont we take a look at how Jeter's D stacks up over his career versus some other SS's that can hit that get WAY more press re their D [tried to keep this mostly AL but I wanted to throw two guys in there for obvious reasons]? RF Jeter .975 4.09 Young .976 4.28 Furcal .972 4.62 Tejada .971 4.60 Guillen .967 4.03 Hanley .961 4.17 _linenums:0'>Player FP RFJeter .975 4.09Young .976 4.28Furcal .972 4.62Tejada .971 4.60Guillen .967 4.03Hanley .961 4.17 Range Factor is a useless stat. It's useless because the single most important variable in a player's Range Factor is the amount of chances per inning he gets. Why don't you use Zone Rating instead? Zone Rating is a defensive stat that has some value as it measures the percentage of plays a player makes in his defensive zone. I'll go out on a limb and say the reason you ignore Zone Rating is because year in and year out Jeter is consistently towards the bottom of SS in Zone Rating.
May 25, 200719 yr As always, the numbers don't tell the whole story. With that said, why dont we take a look at how Jeter's D stacks up over his career versus some other SS's that can hit that get WAY more press re their D [tried to keep this mostly AL but I wanted to throw two guys in there for obvious reasons]? RF Jeter .975 4.09 Young .976 4.28 Furcal .972 4.62 Tejada .971 4.60 Guillen .967 4.03 Hanley .961 4.17 _linenums:0'>Player FP RFJeter .975 4.09Young .976 4.28Furcal .972 4.62Tejada .971 4.60Guillen .967 4.03Hanley .961 4.17 Range Factor is a useless stat. It's useless because the single most important variable in a player's Range Factor is the amount of chances per inning he gets. Why don't you use Zone Rating instead? Zone Rating is a defensive stat that has some value as it measures the percentage of plays a player makes in his defensive zone. I'll go out on a limb and say the reason you ignore Zone Rating is because year in and year out Jeter is consistently towards the bottom of SS in Zone Rating. Even zone-rating's terribly flawed. I mean, if you go by zone-rating over the last several years, you'd come to the statistical conclusion that Derrek Lee and Carlos Delgado are roughly the same quality of defensive player, and I think, as Marlins fans, we know that's obviously not the case.
May 25, 200719 yr I agree Zone Rating has flaws but at least it's better than Range Factor and every analysis I've read that takes a player's range into account concludes that Jeter is a terrible defensive player. The other day I read an analysis of the '06 season and it concluded Jeter made abpuit 30 fewer plays than the average SS. Those 30 plays Jeter failed to make last season = a boatload of extra runs allowed.
May 25, 200719 yr Jeter is an average defensive shortstop, but Arod is a much better defensive ss. Jeter has no range to his left.
May 25, 200719 yr I agree Zone Rating has flaws but at least it's better than Range Factor and every analysis I've read that takes a player's range into account concludes that Jeter is a terrible defensive player. The other day I read an analysis of the '06 season and it concluded Jeter made abpuit 30 fewer plays than the average SS. Those 30 plays Jeter failed to make last season = a boatload of extra runs allowed. Yeah Jeter's overrated defensively, but so what? If you're going to base your entire ranting of a players worth over defense, you're really ignoring the day and age of baseball we're witnessing. Players are stuck at positions if they're even "passable" defensively if the position puts a premium on offense. That's why guys like Jeter, Tejada, Soriano, Piazza and others stuck around infield positions when their glove suggested that they may be suited somewhere else. Teams think with bats now, probably more than ever. If you can do a decent job at a position defensively, and hit in the top 10% of the position, you're not getting moved. That said, Jeter's a fantastic player, a player many teams would love to have, but he's overrated. He wasn't the player of the '90's no matter how much Fox and ESPN wanted you to believe, and he's probably not in the top-10 for players to have played during the last decade. The "Angel in the OF" home run against the O's? Reality. Oh come on now. That's Jeffrey Maier.
May 25, 200719 yr Author The game-winning homerun in the WS on November 1 against the DBacks? Reality. It was on Halloween, not Novemeber 1. 10th inning vs B-Yung-Hung-Kim or whatever his name is. remember that because thats when Kim took a baseball and threw it over 300 feet, over the left field wall as he left the game.
May 26, 200719 yr The game-winning homerun in the WS on November 1 against the DBacks? Reality. It was on Halloween, not Novemeber 1. 10th inning vs B-Yung-Hung-Kim or whatever his name is. remember that because thats when Kim took a baseball and threw it over 300 feet, over the left field wall as he left the game. didn't that game go well into the night/next morning though?
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