Most of all, remember that there's not a statistic out there that will tell you who the best pitcher/batter is.

False.

 

WARP3 is a great "catch-all" tool that can tell you have many wins above a AAA player a player has been worth in any given year. Win Shares is another one. Good old OPS+ can do a pretty good job of telling you who the best hitter is.

 

If a pitcher has a low era and a high WHIP that doesn't mean he's not having a good year, it just means that he's due to see his ERA rise.

To measure offense you may want to stick to OBP, SLG, RISP OBP, RISP SLG and then throw in a touch of games played and / or PAs to take durability into account.

 

You don't need to go into these ridiculous stats with really cool names that don't really measure what the really cool names say they do. Look past the really cool names and look at the damn formulas.

 

Two of the stats you mentioned don't matter because they are based on really small sample sizes that are subject to fluctuation year to year.

 

WARP3 takes into account everything a player does on offense (Singles, Doubles, Triples, Homers, Sac flies, Double plays, stolen bases, caught stealing, etc.) and defense, and then calculates each part's value based on how many runs each one gives you. It is then converted into a format that gives you a pretty good indicator of how many wins above a AAA replacement player (Todd Linden) a given player is worth.

 

How does this not measure what it says it measures? Did you even look up WARP3 before posting that response?

Everyday players get around 200 RISP PAs per season so I have no idea how you just blow off a player's production with RISP due to a small sample size or because of yearly fluctuations.

 

The 200 PAs does not constitute a small sample size and the yearly fluctuations occur because these guys are not robots and because of it their yearly production will vary (and not because of luck, as you claim).

 

Regarding WARP3, you ought to know that just because the name in a formula says the formula is called "Wins Above Replacement Player" it doesn't mean that's what the formula measures. Go get the formula and prove it.

apparently fredi is unaware of that little 11-31 learning curve we went through in which i'm sure we made errors at a much greater pace than we did while we went 67-53. but in fredi's mind, it's perfectly fine that under his leadership they have regressed back to the shoddy defense they played in the early part of 2006.

 

i know you can't really blame fredi for the defense because of the loss of such a great coach as perry hill, but it's fredi's loser mentality about everything that i can't stand. girardi is much more of a winner.

and there's no learning curve from year 1 to year 2?

 

how is Girardi more of a winner than Fredi?... that's utter BS (one way or the other)

 

come on. you know it is not. how many world series did girardi win with the yankees? how many years was he a part of a winning organization with a winning attitude? how long did he study what to do in specific situations? there is absolutely no doubt girardi is more cerebral than fredi. i think swift said before how girardi went by the book and fredi goes by misguided guts; very good characterizations. from what has transpired thus far, it's safe to say that bobby cox didn't rub off on fredi too much.

 

and i'm not saying joe girardi is the ultimate winning manager. i'm saying in his one season he proved that he is better than loser fredi gonzalez has shown.

 

and polo's comment: "I think it has a lot to do with guys who are not gifted defensive players playing for a manager who hides his head in the sand when the poor play occurs"

 

could not agree more with that

 

 

that wasn't my point; the braves didn't rub off on fredi as much as the yankees did on girardi.

How can you know that though?

 

Good lord, Gee, you're smarter than that. The concept of an organization rubbing off on anyone, let alone someone who spent a fraction of their professional career there, is absurd.

 

And this assumes that everything is on the same playing field. That a "Yankee" or "Brave" strategy would work with the Marlins since the team is constructed in the manner of the surrogate parent clubs.

 

Just an inane position. There's so much more out there than can be used against Fredi, to waste breath on something silly like this is cuuuuhrazy.

well i don't think its that crazy. not that the organization rubs off on them but the winning ways and attitudes of the manager and clubhouse do. i'm sure both girardi and gonzalez learned a lot from the positions in which they were previously employed. i think its fair to say that the way torre and cox handled things and made decisions about things rubbed off on girardi and fredi respectively. even though girardi may not have been with the yankees long, they won 3 world series and he spent a year as a coach; i'm beyond convinced this contributed to his managerial style and decisions. as for fredi, the braves were perennial division winners and i think fredi learned a little bit in his short time there.

 

the distinction i was making was that, based upon what we have seen from both so far in marlins uniforms, in their small sample sizes, girardi was better. and because he was so much better, imo, i was saying that bobby cox must not have rubbed off on fredi as much as i thought. i guess you can't really say that or make that comparison. its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

 

does intelligence come into it?

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

 

does intelligence come into it?

being baseball smart has little to do with having a degree in operational engineering

and i was half kidding, but intelligence comes into everything. and that doesn't hurt girardi at all.

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

 

does intelligence come into it?

being baseball smart has little to do with having a degree in operational engineering

 

clearly. i don't disagree with that. but in anything it helps to be smart.

apparently fredi is unaware of that little 11-31 learning curve we went through in which i'm sure we made errors at a much greater pace than we did while we went 67-53. but in fredi's mind, it's perfectly fine that under his leadership they have regressed back to the shoddy defense they played in the early part of 2006.

 

i know you can't really blame fredi for the defense because of the loss of such a great coach as perry hill, but it's fredi's loser mentality about everything that i can't stand. girardi is much more of a winner.

and there's no learning curve from year 1 to year 2?

 

how is Girardi more of a winner than Fredi?... that's utter BS (one way or the other)

 

come on. you know it is not. how many world series did girardi win with the yankees? how many years was he a part of a winning organization with a winning attitude? how long did he study what to do in specific situations? there is absolutely no doubt girardi is more cerebral than fredi. i think swift said before how girardi went by the book and fredi goes by misguided guts; very good characterizations. from what has transpired thus far, it's safe to say that bobby cox didn't rub off on fredi too much.

 

and i'm not saying joe girardi is the ultimate winning manager. i'm saying in his one season he proved that he is better than loser fredi gonzalez has shown.

 

and polo's comment: "I think it has a lot to do with guys who are not gifted defensive players playing for a manager who hides his head in the sand when the poor play occurs"

 

could not agree more with that

 

 

that wasn't my point; the braves didn't rub off on fredi as much as the yankees did on girardi.

How can you know that though?

 

Good lord, Gee, you're smarter than that. The concept of an organization rubbing off on anyone, let alone someone who spent a fraction of their professional career there, is absurd.

 

And this assumes that everything is on the same playing field. That a "Yankee" or "Brave" strategy would work with the Marlins since the team is constructed in the manner of the surrogate parent clubs.

 

Just an inane position. There's so much more out there than can be used against Fredi, to waste breath on something silly like this is cuuuuhrazy.

That's why I was asking, to see his response, since you can't measure/compare the amount of "rubbing off" an organization has on one person. I agree, it was an absurd statement, I was just asking him to clarify/justify it.

apparently fredi is unaware of that little 11-31 learning curve we went through in which i'm sure we made errors at a much greater pace than we did while we went 67-53. but in fredi's mind, it's perfectly fine that under his leadership they have regressed back to the shoddy defense they played in the early part of 2006.

 

i know you can't really blame fredi for the defense because of the loss of such a great coach as perry hill, but it's fredi's loser mentality about everything that i can't stand. girardi is much more of a winner.

and there's no learning curve from year 1 to year 2?

 

how is Girardi more of a winner than Fredi?... that's utter BS (one way or the other)

 

come on. you know it is not. how many world series did girardi win with the yankees? how many years was he a part of a winning organization with a winning attitude? how long did he study what to do in specific situations? there is absolutely no doubt girardi is more cerebral than fredi. i think swift said before how girardi went by the book and fredi goes by misguided guts; very good characterizations. from what has transpired thus far, it's safe to say that bobby cox didn't rub off on fredi too much.

 

and i'm not saying joe girardi is the ultimate winning manager. i'm saying in his one season he proved that he is better than loser fredi gonzalez has shown.

 

and polo's comment: "I think it has a lot to do with guys who are not gifted defensive players playing for a manager who hides his head in the sand when the poor play occurs"

 

could not agree more with that

 

 

that wasn't my point; the braves didn't rub off on fredi as much as the yankees did on girardi.

 

Girardi spent one year as Bench coach for the Yankees. He spent four years with them as a player. Why does he have a "winning attitude" from spending like 20% of his career there and not a "losing attitude" from spending about half of his career witht he cubs and Rockies?

 

 

And boy you really are harping on that "arrogant prick" thing, huh? Did I say that to you? I honestly don't remember... Either way, everytime you say something completely ridiculous like "Fredi has a losing attitude because Bobby Cox didn't rub off on him enough" you look more and more like one.

apparently fredi is unaware of that little 11-31 learning curve we went through in which i'm sure we made errors at a much greater pace than we did while we went 67-53. but in fredi's mind, it's perfectly fine that under his leadership they have regressed back to the shoddy defense they played in the early part of 2006.

 

i know you can't really blame fredi for the defense because of the loss of such a great coach as perry hill, but it's fredi's loser mentality about everything that i can't stand. girardi is much more of a winner.

and there's no learning curve from year 1 to year 2?

 

how is Girardi more of a winner than Fredi?... that's utter BS (one way or the other)

 

come on. you know it is not. how many world series did girardi win with the yankees? how many years was he a part of a winning organization with a winning attitude? how long did he study what to do in specific situations? there is absolutely no doubt girardi is more cerebral than fredi. i think swift said before how girardi went by the book and fredi goes by misguided guts; very good characterizations. from what has transpired thus far, it's safe to say that bobby cox didn't rub off on fredi too much.

 

and i'm not saying joe girardi is the ultimate winning manager. i'm saying in his one season he proved that he is better than loser fredi gonzalez has shown.

 

and polo's comment: "I think it has a lot to do with guys who are not gifted defensive players playing for a manager who hides his head in the sand when the poor play occurs"

 

could not agree more with that

 

 

that wasn't my point; the braves didn't rub off on fredi as much as the yankees did on girardi.

 

Girardi spent one year as Bench coach for the Yankees. He spent four years with them as a player. Why does he have a "winning attitude" from spending like 20% of his career there and not a "losing attitude" from spending about half of his career witht he cubs and Rockies?

 

 

And boy you really are harping on that "arrogant prick" thing, huh? Did I say that to you? I honestly don't remember... Either way, everytime you say something completely ridiculous like "Fredi has a losing attitude because Bobby Cox didn't rub off on him enough" you look more and more like one.

 

oh man, you don't remember? awesome. that's so cool. it's real easy to be real tough hiding behind your internet connection and computer. and then you can just forget about it. sick.

 

and each and every time you misquote me, you look more and more like an ignorant prick.

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

 

I would like to know how any degree in anything makes one person smarter than another at being a baseball manager. Or smarter at anything, for that matter. College degrees don't make a person all around smarter. It may make that person more informed in a certain field, but then only on paper. I see a bunch of college grads driving taxis right now. Are they better taxi drivers than a guy/girl that has been driving a cab since they had their license? (Just using taxi driver as a hypothetical)

Not buying into that winning attitude thing either just because of who a player played for or coach worked under. Are the Marlins run anything at all like the Yankees or the Braves? Do they have the same type of personnel? Not talking $$$ here. Meaning the same type players. Coaches learn from their bosses, I'll give you that. But only from what those managers have to work with on the field day in and day out. And personally I would take Bobby Cox over Joe Torre any day.

Let's not even get into you two are only discussing two managers and trying to come to a conclusion of all managers will be this way. Not even close to being true.

Interesting discussion, but keep it real.

oh man, you don't remember? awesome. that's so cool. it's real easy to be real tough hiding behind your internet connection and computer. and then you can just forget about it. sick.

 

and each and every time you misquote me, you look more and more like an ignorant prick.

 

Drop it, please. I'm sorry.

 

Now answer the winning attitude thing.

 

"Girardi spent one year as Bench coach for the Yankees. He spent four years with them as a player. Why does he have a "winning attitude" from spending like 20% of his career there and not a "losing attitude" from spending about half of his career witht he cubs and Rockies?"

 

How do you know Torre rubbed off on Girardi anymore than Cox did on Fredi? You know what I think has shaped both managers year's?

 

Girardi's pitchers were all healthy, and they all pitches great. Fredi has like one good starter and some good relievers. I think this has had more to do with their success than anything else.

Oh yeah? Let's take a more direct comparison: Scott Olsen. Maybe having someone kissing his ass rather than riding his ass has something to do with his behavior and performance this season?

oh man, you don't remember? awesome. that's so cool. it's real easy to be real tough hiding behind your internet connection and computer. and then you can just forget about it. sick.

 

and each and every time you misquote me, you look more and more like an ignorant prick.

 

Drop it, please. I'm sorry.

 

Now answer the winning attitude thing.

 

"Girardi spent one year as Bench coach for the Yankees. He spent four years with them as a player. Why does he have a "winning attitude" from spending like 20% of his career there and not a "losing attitude" from spending about half of his career witht he cubs and Rockies?"

 

How do you know Torre rubbed off on Girardi anymore than Cox did on Fredi? You know what I think has shaped both managers year's?

 

Girardi's pitchers were all healthy, and they all pitches great. Fredi has like one good starter and some good relievers. I think this has had more to do with their success than anything else.

 

I already corrected and clarified the winning attitude thing. My initial point, briefly, was that Joe and Fredi both benefited from the winning environments in which they were previously a part. For anyone who has ever learned anything in any situation, this should be a reasonable statement (pretty sure Joe got the "no facial hair rule" from the Yankees as he did other things we're less aware of). Both took what they learned from those managers and clubhouses and applied them to their new positions with our Marlins. Girardi's time with the losing Cubs and Rockies didn't take away from what he learned with the Yankees. It's not as if he could only learn or retain a certain amount of information and he lost what he learned with the Yankees. In fact, those experiences probably showed Girardi what not to do as a manager. He didn't apply things that the Cubs and Rockies did because they are losers.

 

Because I believe that the above is definitely a reasonable conclusion, and that Joe is much better than Fredi (from what both have shown), I wondered maybe if Fredi didn't learn as much from Cox as I thought he did. Saying that Joe learned more from Torre than Fredi did from Cox was silly, as I said before, because that's immeasurable, and imo, Joe seems much sharper than Fredi to begin with.

 

I 100% agree with: "Girardi's pitchers were all healthy, and they all pitched great. Fredi has like one good starter and some good relievers. I think this has had more to do with their success than anything else."

 

but, I also 100% agree with: "Oh yeah? Let's take a more direct comparison: Scott Olsen. Maybe having someone kissing his ass rather than riding his ass has something to do with his behavior and performance this season?"

 

and I think the second quote gets to the heart of the issue with Fredi and his blase attitude about everything.

ok so Scotty needs tough love...

 

great

its immeasurable and girardi, the operations engineer from northwestern, is much smarter and better at managing to begin with.

since when does a college degree come into play in coaching/managing?

 

you like Joe over Fredi? great... but some of this reasoning is pure lunacy

 

does intelligence come into it?

 

Girardi also learned under Torre, who is a terrible in game manager(reference his NL and interleague records).

Oh yeah? Let's take a more direct comparison: Scott Olsen. Maybe having someone kissing his ass rather than riding his ass has something to do with his behavior and performance this season?

 

:notworthy

ok so Scotty needs tough love...

 

great

I know seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If Girardi were here, maybe Olsen wouldn't have gotten a DUI either, right? These kind of thoughts are absurd and give too much credence to what a manager can actually do with a team. Great managers can make a good team great. We are not a good team though...and sitting Olsen in the Girardi "time out" corner isn't going to solve his problems. He needs to figure out how to get ahead in counts and how to not have his obligatory "blow-up" inning that usually results in a profanity-laced tirade on his way to the dugout after getting the hook.

Oh yeah? Let's take a more direct comparison: Scott Olsen. Maybe having someone kissing his ass rather than riding his ass has something to do with his behavior and performance this season?

 

Are you serious? Why not just assume that everytime Olsen has a horrible performance or gets in a fight with a teammate or kicks cops Fredi sucks all he can right out of Olsen's d***.... Fair enough, right? So you saw Girardi pull Olsen by his collar. Fredi pulled Olsen from games very early a couple of times, once right before he reached the 5th inning with the lead and another well before that. You dont think that sent a message? I suppose we should also assume that after pulling him Fredi put his head down and never said a word to Olsen, for fear of Olsen ending up with another black eye. If I recall, Joe Girardi finished under .500 with a pretty similar team minus the insane number of injuries. Oh yeah, but those players are only any good because Joe Girardi made them who they are! At least Josh Johnson and Ricky Nolasco arent on a mound in the majors right now, just like the great Joe G wanted last year.

Yay! Girardi didnt allow facial hair and hated anything that might lead to a smile (and couldnt finish .500)!! Those Yankees sure did rub off all over him.

ok so Scotty needs tough love...

 

great

 

it's not only about scotty. its his approach to everything. scotty is just an example, and probably even a bad one at that because he's such a nutcase. fredi's attitude when the team is going well is "well, gee, i hope we keep this going" and if they're going bad its "i hope we can right the ship." i don't know what goes on behind closed doors but from having watched him all this season, i can definitely say that fredi is not an in your face manager like girardi was. that may work for veterans or even a club without essentially all 2nd year players but its not working for the Marlins. fredi does not keep the team crisp or on its toes and frequently they are not mentally ready to perform. and that's his job.

and yet about 90% of the team hated Joe last year

 

but maybe that's what they need... someone to hate

If Fredi had the same team (i.e. a starting 5 of a healthy Anibal, Ricky, Josh, Trelle, and Scotty) I think the record would've been extremely similar.

If Fredi had the same team (i.e. a starting 5 of a healthy Anibal, Ricky, Josh, Trelle, and Scotty) I think the record would've been extremely similar.

Similar to this year, or similar to the second-half of last season???