I think Uggla's rating is proof enough.

Agreed.

 

Obviously if you are citing Uggla as an above average 2B, you've never watched Uggla play. I've got nothing against stats in baseball, but some things (namely fielding) can be discerned through simple observation.

I think Uggla's rating is proof enough.

Agreed.

 

Obviously if you are citing Uggla as an above average 2B, you've never watched Uggla play. I've got nothing against stats in baseball, but some things (namely fielding) can be discerned through simple observation.

 

That's not really true, but with the sad state of affairs regarding defensive stats, it is probably as valid as looking at the inherently flaws stats. Uggla is a decent 2B defensive player, but he isn't going to win any gold gloves.

07 he was -19 (Worst)

 

06 I'm not positive, but I know that he was at worst -9 (I get that by the fact that the top-5 worst defensive 2B's from 05-07 were displayed, and #5 was -29...so, if uggla was -10 or higher, he would have shown up on the list)

When we had that Amezaga discussion, you said Uggla was neutral/0 and below average/-12 I believe. Why is there a migration to -19 now?

 

Different stat. What I posted awhile ago was LWZR, what Polo asked about was plus/minus.

 

Plus/minus I consider the best stat considering just how much goes into it. It still has it's flaws, but it's above the competition.

 

However Plus/Minus isn't made public outside of the top-10 (and as of last year, the bottom-5 aswell) (the whole thing is released in a book). Whereas LWZR can be calculated easily be oneself. Ofcoarse, on the flipside, it's nowhere as good...but it's normally somewhere in the ballpark of plus/minus.

 

Also LWZR is assigning runs. Plus/Minus is based off plays (so Uggla's -19 means that the difference of plays Uggla didn't make that he should of made to the plays he made that normally aren't made was 19 plays), and to get a rough run value of that you just half the number (so roughly ~9 runs).

 

I also would consider RZR/OOZ to be supperior to LWZR, and luckily RZR/OOZ is made public via hardballtimes. However no run value is assigned to those, and since I needed a run value, I resorted to LWZR.

Nny... does the RZR published by hardball times include or exclude OOZ balls? Their explanation is not clear to me.

RZR itself is completely void of OOZ. RZR is only of plays within the zone.

That's what i though but wasn't sure. They should ahve a stat that combines RZR with the propensity of a player to make plays outside the zone compared to the average player's propensity. They say RZR and OOZ should be used together. I agree. Make a stat that combines them.

You think the Fish would trade Hanley back to Boston. LOL JK He wouldn't be 1/4 of the player in Boston as he is in Fla. Getting traded to Fla. was the best move for him.

 

Hanley wouldn't be 1/4th the player he is if he was on the Red Sox? If he was on the Boston, he would be a baseball demigod.

 

You are right in a way. But I don't think he would be what he is now(meaning this point in time) if he didn't get traded. It would have taken him longer to get were he is if he was in beantown. We (fans and media) are alot harder on our athletes then alot of markets. But you are right we would love him. We would just still be waiting to see what you already have.

With the way you guys treat Jacoby, and how Pedroia was treated last year, Hanley would have a statue by now.

 

LOL Maybe. He would be a fan favorite along with Jacoby, Pedroia, Manny, Pap, Papi and maybe Youk. With that said I still think if the Sox didn't make the trade he wouldn't have started the year in 05 in the bigs. He would have played for the PawSox for most of the year and not come up till 06 to be a starter. Hints when I said we would still be waiting for what you guys have already seen. You guys have got to see him play for 2 full seasons. If he wasn't traded we would have seen him play maybe a season and a half. So he wouldn't be anywhere close to were he is in his career if he was still here. He got a head start going to Fla. He is a much different player now than he was when the Sox traded him. We knew what he could be. Didn't know how long it was gong to take him to get there. However we didn't know he was going to be able to hit 29 hr's in a season. Since he only hit 20 in his 4 years between A and AA. I think he could take the Boston fans and media at this point in his career if he was traded to us tomorrow. Only because of the head start he got. But I don't think he could have then. Remember you go a AA player in the winter of 05. As for Jacoby. Most of the fans that are sold on him are female. LOL He had a great World Series but I think alot of us would like to see him do that for a full season before the male fans start cheering for him.

Just to add something... Son, Hanley would be the best hitter on your whole damned lineup... Well, that plays the field.

 

1 Im not you son

2 It would be imposable for me to be your son since I am older then you.

3 Good thing you said that plays in the field. Because Ortiz is nasty.

4 Manny may have a leg up on Hanley. The leg isn't very long but it's still a leg.

You think the Fish would trade Hanley back to Boston. LOL JK He wouldn't be 1/4 of the player in Boston as he is in Fla. Getting traded to Fla. was the best move for him.

 

Hanley wouldn't be 1/4th the player he is if he was on the Red Sox? If he was on the Boston, he would be a baseball demigod.

 

You are right in a way. But I don't think he would be what he is now(meaning this point in time) if he didn't get traded. It would have taken him longer to get were he is if he was in beantown. We (fans and media) are alot harder on our athletes then alot of markets. But you are right we would love him. We would just still be waiting to see what you already have.

With the way you guys treat Jacoby, and how Pedroia was treated last year, Hanley would have a statue by now.

 

LOL Maybe. He would be a fan favorite along with Jacoby, Pedroia, Manny, Pap, Papi and maybe Youk. With that said I still think if the Sox didn't make the trade he wouldn't have started the year in 05 in the bigs. He would have played for the PawSox for most of the year and not come up till 06 to be a starter. Hints when I said we would still be waiting for what you guys have already seen. You guys have got to see him play for 2 full seasons. If he wasn't traded we would have seen him play maybe a season and a half. So he wouldn't be anywhere close to were he is in his career if he was still here. He got a head start going to Fla. He is a much different player now than he was when the Sox traded him. We knew what he could be. Didn't know how long it was gong to take him to get there. However we didn't know he was going to be able to hit 29 hr's in a season. Since he only hit 20 in his 4 years between A and AA. I think he could take the Boston fans and media at this point in his career if he was traded to us tomorrow. Only because of the head start he got. But I don't think he could have then. Remember you go a AA player in the winter of 05. As for Jacoby. Most of the fans that are sold on him are female. LOL He had a great World Series but I think alot of us would like to see him do that for a full season before the male fans start cheering for him.

Just to add something... Son, Hanley would be the best hitter on your whole damned lineup... Well, that plays the field.

 

1 Im not you son

2 It would be imposable for me to be your son since I am older then you.

3 Good thing you said that plays in the field. Because Ortiz is nasty.

4 Manny may have a leg up on Hanley. The leg isn't very long but it's still a leg.

1. I didn't actually mean it that way, sorry.

2. With technology these days you never know.

3. Yes, that was a very important part of that statement.

4. Manny has started to wain down, while Hanley is coming into his own. I'd take our Ramirez over yours at this point.