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Keep Cantu?


MarlinatPenn
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Hear me out! Been debating this:

 

Arguments to justify him being expendable:

1. 2.775 K/BB ratio (111/40) - team trying to reduce strikeouts

2. 20 errors - team trying to improve defense

3. .277 BA / .327 OBP / .481 SLG ... good, but nothing too impressive

4. Worthy replacements behind him (D-Mac, Helms)

5. No longer a bargain if due $4.5m or so

6. If keep everyone but Gregg/Olsen/the FA's... then the payroll is at 38.5m or so. Removing Cantu would get it under $35m, the reported "target"

7. Can probably get great value for him in a trade.

 

Arguments to keep:

1. great consistency last year

2. some of errors wouldn't have occurred with a better defensive 1B, and Jacobs now gone

3. Would allow for a deep bench if in a three-way rotation with D-Mac and Gaby

4. D-Mac and Gaby have elements of uncertainty behind them - don't know what they will produce

 

 

I love the guy, but trying to see it from a non-emotional standpoint, what do you guys think!?

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No-brainer.

 

Keep him. NO reason to move the guy.

With all due respect, I listed seven.

 

Listen, I love the guy, but if we have replacements, and he doesn't fit the defensive-minded model, maybe getting value for him to help somewhere else would be smart. But I see both sides, I'm pretty torn, I could go either way.

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No-brainer.

 

Keep him. NO reason to move the guy.

With all due respect, I listed seven.

 

Listen, I love the guy, but if we have replacements, and he doesn't fit the defensive-minded model, maybe getting value for him to help somewhere else would be smart. But I see both sides, I'm pretty torn, I could go either way.

 

We don't have replacements, we have replacement. Singular. He was our most consistent bat, he is inexpensive, he's proven, and worst-case could be dealt at the deadline if not in contention.

 

You keep him, and dealing him shouldn't cross anyones mind.

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Are we going to have polls for every player? Uh.

 

Of course you keep him to ease in Gaby and Dallas, and then you trade him if you aren't contending at the deadline or post 2009. It's obvious.

 

 

Hanley Rameriz should we keep him? But yeah we dont need a poll on al the guys who might go.

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I appreciate the passion, but you guys have not addressed my thoughts regarding NOT keeping Cantu:

1. 2.775 K/BB ratio (111/40) - team trying to reduce strikeouts

2. 20 errors - team trying to improve defense

3. .277 BA / .327 OBP / .481 SLG ... good, but nothing too impressive

4. Worthy replacements behind him (D-Mac, Helms)

5. No longer a bargain if due $4.5m or so

6. If keep everyone but Gregg/Olsen/the FA's... then the payroll is at 38.5m or so. Removing Cantu would get it under $35m, the reported "target"

7. Can probably get great value for him in a trade.

 

I feel the topic of Cantu is unique due to the fact that he does not seem to fit the Marlins' defense-and-less-strikeouts model, has a legit replacement behind him, and has legit trade value.

 

Note: Instead of bashing the topic and poster, try putting in equal thought as the poster did. This wasn't a "Keep Cantu: Y/N" topic. Check the first post.

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I appreciate the passion, but you guys have not addressed my thoughts regarding NOT keeping Cantu:

1. 2.775 K/BB ratio (111/40) - team trying to reduce strikeouts < - Getting rid of Jacobs, having a better situation at C, expected Hermida improvement. This is going to be a problem until they get rid of Ross, Uggla, and Cantu, and replace them with Maybin/another OF, Coghlan, and a new 3B. Long term issue, not an exclusively 2009

2. 20 errors - team trying to improve defense < - Playing more 1B fixes this

3. .277 BA / .327 OBP / .481 SLG ... good, but nothing too impressive < - Ok. Average production is useful over 2 positions

4. Worthy replacements behind him (D-Mac, Helms) < - Helms is not worthy, McDallas is a platoon player vs RHP

5. No longer a bargain if due $4.5m or so < - We can afford this by getting rid of Jacobs, Olsen, Gregg, and Willingam

6. If keep everyone but Gregg/Olsen/the FA's... then the payroll is at 38.5m or so. Removing Cantu would get it under $35m, the reported "target" < - Again, we can afford this by getting rid of Jacobs, Olsen, Gregg, and Willingam. Cantu is more important than them

7. Can probably get great value for him in a trade. < - Arguable. He did it for 1 year and has a lot of questions. I'd say slightly higher than Jacobs

 

 

The only way you get rid of him is if the Marlins luck into a player like Saltalamacchia (or Jeff Clement, or Sandoval, etc) who could satisfy two roles where they could do this:

 

C - Salty, Baker

1B - G. Sanchez, Salty, McPherson, Helms < - More than enough. Someone will hit

3B - McPherson, ________, Helms < - This would be horrible to enter the year with

 

Where the full team could look like this. This situation would be the Marlins getting Saltalamacchia for Olsen + prospects, and they'd have Gregg and Cantu to trade to get another option at 3B and additional RP help

 

Jarrod Saltalamacchia $405,000

Gaby Sanchez $400,000

Dan Uggla $4,400,000

Dallas McPherson $550,000

Hanley Ramirez $5,500,000

Jeremy Hermida $2,500,000

Cameron Maybin $400,000

Cody Ross $3,000,000

 

Alfredo Amezaga $1,750,000

Josh Willingham $2,000,000

Wes Helms $950,000

John Baker $405,000

ANOTHER 3B OPTION ????????????

 

Josh Johnson $1,750,000

Ricky Nolasco $3,000,000

Chris Volstad $405,000

Andrew Miller $1,350,000

Anibal Sanchez $420,000

 

Matt Lindstrom $420,000

Joe Nelson $800,000

Leo Nunez $420,000

Reynel Pinto $420,000

Taylor Tankeresly $415,000

Logan Kensing $550,000

Ryan Tucker $400,000

 

$32,610,000

 

This is a HIGHLY unlikely scenario. I would LOVE this team, but they'd need to be able to get a MLB option at 3B for Gregg (the FA corner IF options are incredibly weak unless you want to gamble with Nomar, Ensberg, or Aurilla, etc), and atleast a Nunez level RP for Cantu. That isn't crazy to think about, but the main part is prying away an amazing prospect like Saltalamacchia from the parent club. IF an absolutely awesome situation like that occurs, then a discussion about Cantu's relevance can start. We are just not there yet, and is pretty unlikely as the Marlins will have won the baseball lottery if they can get someone like Salty.

 

Hope this is better.

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I appreciate the passion, but you guys have not addressed my thoughts regarding NOT keeping Cantu:

1. 2.775 K/BB ratio (111/40) - team trying to reduce strikeouts < - Getting rid of Jacobs, having a better situation at C, expected Hermida improvement. This is going to be a problem until they get rid of Ross, Uggla, and Cantu, and replace them with Maybin/another OF, Coghlan, and a new 3B. Long term issue, not an exclusively 2009

2. 20 errors - team trying to improve defense < - Playing more 1B fixes this

3. .277 BA / .327 OBP / .481 SLG ... good, but nothing too impressive < - Ok. Average production is useful over 2 positions

4. Worthy replacements behind him (D-Mac, Helms) < - Helms is not worthy, McDallas is a platoon player vs RHP

5. No longer a bargain if due $4.5m or so < - We can afford this by getting rid of Jacobs, Olsen, Gregg, and Willingam

6. If keep everyone but Gregg/Olsen/the FA's... then the payroll is at 38.5m or so. Removing Cantu would get it under $35m, the reported "target" < - Again, we can afford this by getting rid of Jacobs, Olsen, Gregg, and Willingam. Cantu is more important than them

7. Can probably get great value for him in a trade. < - Arguable. He did it for 1 year and has a lot of questions. I'd say slightly higher than Jacobs

 

 

The only way you get rid of him is if the Marlins luck into a player like Saltalamacchia (or Jeff Clement, or Sandoval, etc) who could satisfy two roles where they could do this:

 

C - Salty, Baker

1B - G. Sanchez, Salty, McPherson, Helms < - More than enough. Someone will hit

3B - McPherson, ________, Helms < - This would be horrible to enter the year with

 

Where the full team could look like this. This situation would be the Marlins getting Saltalamacchia for Olsen + prospects, and they'd have Gregg and Cantu to trade to get another option at 3B and additional RP help

 

Jarrod Saltalamacchia $405,000

Gaby Sanchez $400,000

Dan Uggla $4,400,000

Dallas McPherson $550,000

Hanley Ramirez $5,500,000

Jeremy Hermida $2,500,000

Cameron Maybin $400,000

Cody Ross $3,000,000

 

Alfredo Amezaga $1,750,000

Josh Willingham $2,000,000

Wes Helms $950,000

John Baker $405,000

ANOTHER 3B OPTION ????????????

 

Josh Johnson $1,750,000

Ricky Nolasco $3,000,000

Chris Volstad $405,000

Andrew Miller $1,350,000

Anibal Sanchez $420,000

 

Matt Lindstrom $420,000

Joe Nelson $800,000

Leo Nunez $420,000

Reynel Pinto $420,000

Taylor Tankeresly $415,000

Logan Kensing $550,000

Ryan Tucker $400,000

 

$32,610,000

 

This is a HIGHLY unlikely scenario. I would LOVE this team, but they'd need to be able to get a MLB option at 3B for Gregg (the FA corner IF options are incredibly weak unless you want to gamble with Nomar, Ensberg, or Aurilla, etc), and atleast a Nunez level RP for Cantu. That isn't crazy to think about, but the main part is prying away an amazing prospect like Saltalamacchia from the parent club. IF an absolutely awesome situation like that occurs, then a discussion about Cantu's relevance can start. We are just not there yet, and is pretty unlikely as the Marlins will have won the baseball lottery if they can get someone like Salty.

 

Hope this is better.

Wow, Lou, that was very in depth, like always. It's frustrating when you put time and thought into a post and just get insulted and dismissed. Thanks, you made some great points!

 

One issue I might debate with you is Cantu vs Willingham though. Willingham, in an off and injury-laden year, had an OBP 30 points higher than Cantu's. He slugged only a few points less and ended with a better OPS. He struck out less and walked more. And it was an off year. Now I understand the back issues, and I hope Hammer is doing his best to take care of himself and perhaps lose a couple dozen pounds this offseason so it's not an issue and he can regain his past form. Hammer is also solid on defense in left and a move to the corners may be coming, adding him to the mix. Getting rid of Hammer would indeed allow Cantu to be affordable, but I was working under the premise of just getting rid of Jake/Gregg/Olsen.

 

I understand the cautiousness over D-Mac and Gaby and wanting Cantu as insurance that they don't work out, and I think that's a great point. At the same time, I wouldn't put it past Beinfest to pull another Cantu out of his hat to compete at 3B with D-Mac and Helms. Worse case, you also have Andino and Coghlan that could make the move to 3B if necessary. I don't think losing Cantu would be a huge problem for third, but I do see the value in keeping him there as well.

 

Sidebar: I'm not totally sold on Cantu at 1B. He never really made any difficult plays over there. He played two innings a game there and never made the outstanding play or anything. Maybe Spring Training will help him progress, but my vote is for Gaby, who is apparently above average over there, to get all the starts, for the defense, to help out Hanley/Uggla/Cantu/DMac, etc..

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One issue I might debate with you is Cantu vs Willingham though. Willingham, in an off and injury-laden year, had an OBP 30 points higher than Cantu's. He slugged only a few points less and ended with a better OPS. He struck out less and walked more. And it was an off year. Now I understand the back issues, and I hope Hammer is doing his best to take care of himself and perhaps lose a couple dozen pounds this offseason so it's not an issue and he can regain his past form. Hammer is also solid on defense in left and a move to the corners may be coming, adding him to the mix. Getting rid of Hammer would indeed allow Cantu to be affordable, but I was working under the premise of just getting rid of Jake/Gregg/Olsen.

 

I understand the cautiousness over D-Mac and Gaby and wanting Cantu as insurance that they don't work out, and I think that's a great point. At the same time, I wouldn't put it past Beinfest to pull another Cantu out of his hat to compete at 3B with D-Mac and Helms. Worse case, you also have Andino and Coghlan that could make the move to 3B if necessary. I don't think losing Cantu would be a huge problem for third, but I do see the value in keeping him there as well.

 

Sidebar: I'm not totally sold on Cantu at 1B. He never really made any difficult plays over there. He played two innings a game there and never made the outstanding play or anything. Maybe Spring Training will help him progress, but my vote is for Gaby, who is apparently above average over there, to get all the starts, for the defense, to help out Hanley/Uggla/Cantu/DMac, etc..

You keep Willingham because we're going to need 4 good outfielders because of Maybin's youth, Cody's all or nothingness, and uncertainty with Hermida. Hammer has his own back issues, but at any given time 3 of those guys should be ready to go, and even in a worst case scenario, if Amezaga has to play CF vs RHP and only two of Hermida, Ross, Maybin, and Hammer can play, that's still not a terrible OF. Hammer is also coming off a bad year, and Cantu a good year. Their value could shift immensely as Hammer is the better player and they should both return to career rates. Hammer is also 1/2 the price or less than Cantu. I don't think either of these players are in competition to keep one another off the team though. Cantu is extremely relevant just because he can play 1B/3B, so only one of Gaby or McPherson needs to hit at any given time. But like I said, if we add in something awesome like Salty/Clement/Sandoval who could play 1B, and then grab another 3B somewhere, that is creating enough players with positive resumes to fill the positions. There are no FA options as good as Cantu, we can afford the salary, so he stays for now. After 09 though, Uggla, Cantu, Ross, Willingham, and maybe Hermida and McPherson are all going to be gone though. The AVG/K/DEF thing is just going to fix itself naturally as Hanley keeps improving and we graduate Maybin, Sanchez, Coghlan, Andino, Morrison, Cousins, Raynor, etc to the bigs.

 

As is, they need to have a predominant platoon of LHP Sanchez/Cantu 1B/3B, and RHP mostly CantuAndSomeSanchez/McPherson at 1B/3B. If something nuts happen, we'll re-evaluate then.

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Arguments to keep:

1. great consistency last year

2. some of errors wouldn't have occurred with a better defensive 1B, and Jacobs now gone

3. Would allow for a deep bench if in a three-way rotation with D-Mac and Gaby

4. D-Mac and Gaby have elements of uncertainty behind them - don't know what they will produce

 

5. Most of his errors can while trying to learn a new position

6. Capable of hitting 30 home runs a year

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