February 11, 200422 yr I think there are some important things to notice when reading this article - the philosophy of handling pitching. This has been a lively debate for some time now, and I dont think that there is any right answer but certainly options available for a team to handle their pitching. You can 'baby' your pitchers by keeping them close with pitch counts, taking a preventative stance to injury. Or, you can make them throw often and a lot and condition their arms for endurance. I personally think there is a lot to be said for the latter. It is interesting that this is somewhat an old school mentality, and if you look closely, you will find it here with McKeon. Read, debate: McKeon sets pitching bar high By Joe Frisaro / MLB.com Though A.J. Burnett's recovery is ahead of schedule, Jack McKeon has no intention of rushing him back. (AP) MIAMI -- Postseason success proved one thing to Marlins manager Jack McKeon: Titles can't be won if a team has tired arms. The Marlins were able to complete their shocking World Series championship season in 2003 largely because their pitching held up in October. Marlins pitchers and catchers are scheduled to report to Spring Training in Jupiter, Fla., on Feb. 21. The message being sent to the players is this: Come ready to work. "Spring Training is the time to get ready," said McKeon. "There is going to be a lot of emphasis on conditioning. I want to get [the entire team]ready, but especially the pitchers." No, McKeon isn't trying to run Spring Training's version of the movie Miracle, in which the late Herb Brooks, the coach of the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team, is depicted showing that hustle can produce golden results. But McKeon wants his starters in shape to deliver early results. He doesn't want the Marlins to fall into a 10-games-under-.500 hole, as they did last May. Enter the Hotels.com Think Spring Sweepstakes "I'd like to see a couple of [starters] going seven innings in Spring Training games," he said. "I want them ready to win. I want them thinking nine innings, not that they will pitch nine. I want them thinking they can." McKeon made it clear that pitching will be a progression this spring. Starters will begin by tossing a couple of innings in Grapefruit League games, then build up, possibly to seven innings as the regular season draws closer. McKeon believes that pitchers build up arm strength and endurance by pitching, and that hard work won't hurt them. During the 2004 regular season, the starters once again will be on a fixed schedule, throwing every fifth game. His formula paid off with a World Series title last year. Time after time in 2003, McKeon went against the grain and managed according to who was getting the job done. Indeed, the line between starters and relievers blurred in the playoffs. The savvy manager never hesitated using Carl Pavano, Dontrelle Willis, Brad Penny and Josh Beckett in relief. Whatever it took to win, McKeon did. To the credit of Beckett, Penny, Pavano and Willis, they took the ball whenever asked. And they produced. Josh Beckett / P Height: 6'4" Weight: 190 Bats/Throws: R/R More info: Player page Stats Splits Marlins site Beckett gained the most notoriety by tossing four innings of relief in Game 7 of the National League Championship Series to help close out the Cubs. In the World Series, on three days' rest, he blanked the Yankees in Game 6 of the World Series. Beckett was an incredible workhorse in both the NLCS and World Series. In a 13-day span, the tough-minded Texan appeared in four games (three starts), tossed two shutouts, and in 29 1/3 innings gave up three runs (0.92 ERA) and 11 hits. One reason why Beckett was strong in the end is because he threw 142 total innings during an injury-marred regular season. A right elbow sprain kept him on the disabled list for seven weeks, and the time off may have given the 23-year-old an edge. A healthy Beckett is expected to be the starter on April 6, Opening Day, when the Marlins take on the Expos at Pro Player Stadium. This season, McKeon places A.J. Burnett is a similar position to where Beckett was a year ago. Last week McKeon watched the hard-throwing right-hander, who is recovering from Tommy John surgery, toss a bullpen session. Burnett continues to be impressive, remaining ahead of schedule. While Burnett hopes to be back in April, early May is more likely. "I told A.J., 'I want you to be like Beckett,'" said McKeon. "Last year Josh was chomping at the bit to get back." Despite the pleas, McKeon kept Beckett out another week, until close to the All-Star break. With Burnett, a little more recovery time may be beneficial. "I don't want any dead heroes out there," said McKeon. The addition of free-agent signee Darren Oliver reduces the urgency to bring back Burnett early. The frontrunner to be the fifth starter, the left-handed Oliver is capable of logging a lot of innings. Assuming the current rotation stays healthy, the Marlins could be in a surplus situation when Burnett returns. If so, they will have six seasoned starters. Most likely, Oliver will go to the bullpen. If that is the case, it will be a luxury, because down the stretch the team that has the most durable arms has the best shot at reaching the playoffs. "From the start of the season to August is the time pitchers maintain," said McKeon. "In the middle of August is when pitchers wear down. This is the time we have to work a little harder to stay strong until the end." Joe Frisaro is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.
February 12, 200422 yr Another reason why Mr. McKeon is the reigning Manager of the Year. I love the skip, and I honestly do not think we would have won it all without him.
February 12, 200422 yr with modern medical technology.... starting pitchers should be able to do 220 innings in a season.......EASILY. I have always participated in the 'old school' mentality. I would rather have 4 man rotation over a 5 man rotation..but we will never have that again.
February 12, 200422 yr although guys are getting stronger and are pitching longer, they still need rest (just look at AJ)
February 12, 200422 yr if an arm is conditioned to throw 150 pitches, it'll throw 150. if it's conditioned to throw 90, it'll throw 90. that said, there's the mental factor which Curt Shcilling explained well. it amounts to this: "if inning is hard, but throw only 20 pitches, it'll feel like 35. if an inning is easy and you throw 25 pitches, it'll feel like 10." my philosophy is when i see the pitcher get tired, pull him.
February 12, 200422 yr although guys are getting stronger and are pitching longer, they still need rest (just look at AJ) mental makeup. if guys could throw 250 innings in the 70s and before...then they should be able to do it now as well easily. modern medicine improves everything else...but makes pitchers pitch LESS.... give me a break. read the verducci article from last years SI baseball preview.
February 13, 200422 yr the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization. :hat The champ
February 13, 200422 yr the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization. :hat The champ it finally happened... I agree with you
February 13, 200422 yr Author the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization. :hat The champ Precisely. It is a paradigm shift that has resulted in 'babying' the pitchers. For example, none of us could run 20 miles straight because we have no need to. But in norther Mexico, there are native Indians that would do this routinely. There are examples of humans all over the world doing extraordinary things with their bodies (and I am not talking about Bangkok, gentlemen) because the need is there or because they are not told they CANT. The fact is there is NO WAY to predict and prevent injury. I believe that there is a way to condition oneself to actually lessen the chance - and the philosophy McKeon has (and perhaps the rest of our FO) - is in line with this. Frankly, I am very pleased.
February 13, 200422 yr the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization. :hat The champ Precisely. It is a paradigm shift that has resulted in 'babying' the pitchers. For example, none of us could run 20 miles straight because we have no need to. But in norther Mexico, there are native Indians that would do this routinely. There are examples of humans all over the world doing extraordinary things with their bodies (and I am not talking about Bangkok, gentlemen) because the need is there or because they are not told they CANT. The fact is there is NO WAY to predict and prevent injury. I believe that there is a way to condition oneself to actually lessen the chance - and the philosophy McKeon has (and perhaps the rest of our FO) - is in line with this. Frankly, I am very pleased. This is why a great pitching coach is needed. Not only to measure if a guy is tired or just a bit tender, but to make sure the mechanics are precise. There is a thought that AJ got hurt partly because Arnie tweaked the delivery to that half turn like Kevin Brown does. Not that it is all Arnie's fault, but it makes you wonder. Switching arm angles, even slightly, can put different pressure on an elbow or shoulder. Pitching really is a science. The pitchers themselves have to know their limits. Conditioning is key for them. Get their legs strong and they will hold up longer. :hat The champ
February 13, 200422 yr the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization. :hat The champ it finally happened... I agree with you While I somewhat agree with you two, I hope that our young staff are on the same line of thinking with Jack. Worst thing it can happen is seeing our young pitchers being stressed for being left in the game too long or being used too much. (i.e. Spooneybarger complaining that he was being used to much). Let's keep in mind that these players want to succeed and make the mega bucks, and health and injury is always a concern for them. And the stress factor, may affect their on field performance.
February 13, 200422 yr the reason pitchers aren't going more innings is because they are conditioned not to from the time they are drafted. Pitchers will toss a few innings in the minors and then be taken out. Guys like Beckett rarely saw the sixth or seventh innings in the minors. For that matter, Beckett didn't have a load of minor league innings to begin with. I agree with Jack on breaking down these myths that pitchers shouldn't pitch. Babying them isn't necessarily the answer. There is a fine line between overusing guys, burning them out the way Koufax was. But a number of pitchers like Seaver, Clemens hold up and pile up the innings over the long haul. Handling pitching and finding the right pitching coach are probably the two most important jobs in an organization.? :hat The champ it finally happened... I agree with you While I somewhat agree with you two, I hope that our young staff are on the same line of thinking with Jack. Worst thing it can happen is seeing our young pitchers being stressed for being left in the game too long or being used too much. (i.e. Spooneybarger complaining that he was being used to much). Let's keep in mind that these players want to succeed and make the mega bucks, and health and injury is always a concern for them. And the stress factor, may affect their on field performance. That is the challenge. Finding the right guys. McKeon definitely rides his pitchers hard. Spooney's problems may have been because he wasn't exactly in great shape. He's not like AJ in that regard. AJ enjoys working out. Spooney may not have conditioned properly. He still only threw about 40 innings last year. Sure he had a couple of three inning stints but that in itself shouldn't have caused a ligament tear. :hat The champ
February 13, 200422 yr I disagree with his approach. You shouldn't be taking a toll on a pitcher's arm as early as the end of march. None of his guys besides pavano really started a whole season and by the end of 2004 they're going to be worn out if their elbows don't give first. However, I agree with the diea of the 4 man rotation and I like how toronto sued halladay. If I was a GM, I would contruct a good bullpen and go with a 4 man rotation. End the pitching sessions in between and have lower pitch counts for starts. This gives everyone maximum effectiveness and their elbows or shoulders don't get worn out in bullpen sessions (kevin brown supposedly took his way to seriously...)
February 13, 200422 yr Tom House says the current spate of pitchers struggling to top 200 innings is cause in large part by their upbringing. Kids do not "play catch" for extended periods anymore - there are too many other things to do and attention spans are short. Ryan, Seaver, Spahn, Ford etc grew up throwing a lot, so their bodies were not shocked at the ML level to throw 250+ innings a year.
February 13, 200422 yr Author Tom House says the current spate of pitchers struggling to top 200 innings is cause in large part by their upbringing. Kids do not "play catch" for extended periods anymore - there are too many other things to do and attention spans are short. Ryan, Seaver, Spahn, Ford etc grew up throwing a lot, so their bodies were not shocked at the ML level to throw 250+ innings a year. Good point. I do think this is about conditioning. I felt that AJ's new delivery was a good idea because it gave him more power with his legs instead of his arm. But there is probably no coincedence that both he and Brown had elbow problems. I also think that the right kind of conditioning is important. Pitchers should not be working out their arms so much because that puts wear and tear on their arms and joints, but rather strengthen their lower bodies to help them drive the ball and strengthen their delivery. It will be interesting to see how the team philosophy is realized this spring.
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