FRZfishfan

I never said it was an absolute right. My issue is that they used an inducement in the form of playoff ticket guarantees to buy a product. That product (I am arguing) was represented to me in certain ways for 3 years. My expectation as ongoing consumer of that product was a reasonable expectation. I don't need for the Marlins to go to the playoffs or even be .500. But saying that they'll field a major league team next year is a lie. And my problem is that I don't like to be lied to and then be told shove it.

As I said, I'm not asking for a refund but this was wrong. Personally, the worst part is not the firesale. What's hard to stomach is being told to watch this young team develop but we're leaving in a couple of years. Those are my thoughts exactly. I'm not mad about the firesale. I understand what they are doing and why from a player personnel standpoint. But I'm not going to be told "You'll get nothing and like it!" as if I were Spalding Smails or something.

Of course we're talking about season ticket holders. I wanted to sit in my seat through whatever round of the playoffs we might go to. I didn't HAVE to re-up for 2006, yes I could have gotten in line like the schleps and the real bandwagoners to sit in the center field upper deck. But my point wasn't that I couldn't get 'any' tickets to the playoffs. The point was that to have 'my seat' in the playoffs I had to re-up. And my letter is quite clear with the "as a season ticket holder" language.

Since I started this thread a lot of people have speculated about a few things that I thought I'd clarify. For the record the following is from the FAQ document they sent with the playoff offer: Q: Do I have the option to purchase post season playoff strips [tickets] without a deposit for the 2006 regular season? A: No, you must put down a non-refundable deposit by choosing option A or Option B for the 2006 season to secure your strips for the 2005 post season. That's pretty unambiguous. Option A, by the way, was a payment plan that allowed you to obtain a 5% discount. I have one seat in the terrace box with no parking pass. The cost of that seat is $1063.86. To date the Marlins have charged my credit card the first 4 installments of 5 totalling $851.09. As you can tell by my purchase, this isn't exactly "disposable" income otherwise I'd have purchased two seats like most people. But I AM a TRUE fan. If you read my note you'll see that my first season was 2003. Not 2004. I purchased my tickets (then a 2 for 1 deal for less than $1000) before the 2003 began when everyone was pissed about CJ and Alfonseca being traded and the Hampton deal that brought Pierre here and there were zero expectations of the Marlins making the post season. I even had a bet with a friend of mine. He said the Marlins wouldn't be .500. He still owes me dinner for 2 at the Capital Grille. One of you said the Marlins ceiling this year is .500. If I believed they had a chance at .500 I wouldn't be angry at all. This team could lose 100 games easily. But it's not the record that they might have that pisses me off. I'll still root for them, watch them on the tube and even attend a few games but I'm disugusted at how they are treating their best fans. I more than likely would have stayed put if they had offered a refund based on the drastic moves they've made. But they just said "you bought it now you're going to have to eat it." Which tells me that they really are out of here. Think about it. They roped like 10,000 people into next year but how many of them will be back in 2007 after the way they were treated? I don't have to prove my "fandom" to any of you guys if you actually read my blog, that some of you ridiculed, you'd see that I am passionate about the Marlins. And like it or not, this is like if you went to the jeweler and picked out a diamond and when it was delivered you got a yellow topaz. Maybe there was some fine print that said that they could pull the switcharoo but it would piss you off nonetheless. I ask how many of you supposed fans that ridiculed my letter go to 60-70 games each year, by yourself, commuting 1 hour each way? Oh and one last thing. Somebody said that I shouldn't have gone for the playoff offer based on the standings. I remember posting on this very board with about 12 games to go that baseball prospectus had the Marlins with the highest odds for winning the wild card. We actually led the wild card race for a day or two before the bottom fell out. How short our memories.

Here is a letter that I submitted to American Express in support of my dispute to get a refund for my season ticket. ----------- To: American Express, Merchant Disputes Department From: Re: Case # Attn: Via Fax: Dear Sir or Madam: This letter is reference to my dispute with the Florida Marlins for charges that amount to $851.09. The disputed charges are for a season ticket account with the Florida Marlins Baseball Club. I have been a season ticket holder for 3 seasons (2003, 2004, 2005). Toward the end of the 2005 season all season ticket holders received a solicitation to renew their accounts for the 2006 season. The solicitation was combined with an offer to purchase playoff tickets for the 2005 season (if the Marlins were to qualify for the playoffs). In other words, a season ticket holder could not purchase playoff tickets for 2005 unless he/she committed to renewing for 2006. The Marlins did not make the playoffs in 2005 and all monies paid for those tickets were refunded. This is normal procedure for sports franchises. What happened next is not. In November of 2005 the team began trading away the vast majority of its everyday players in an effort to cut the teams operating costs. The president of the Marlins, David Samson, called this a ?market correction.? He announced that from that day forward the club?s payroll would have to be in line with its revenues and that the club could no longer afford to take operating losses. Some roster turnover is expected from year to year on any professional sports team but what the Marlins are doing is far different than what usually goes on between seasons. There is no way to verify the veracity of Mr. Samson?s statements about the club losing money in previous years since the team has never opened it?s books to anyone for inspection. After 3 seasons of fielding a competitive club with a salary figure that was neither considered low nor high in Major League Baseball, the Marlins are expected to have the lowest payroll in the Major Leagues in 2006. I understand that the club has to make difficult financial decisions based on the reality of the marketplace but so do the fans. I believe Marlins season ticket holders are victims of the old fashioned ?bait and switch?. We were shown one product in 2005, asked to purchase it and when we committed, they changed the product drastically. The team has been adamant about not giving refunds to season ticket holders. Beyond the inferior on-field product that will be a result of slashing 2/3 of the payroll, the Marlins announced that they would be seeking a new market to move the ball club to. When a sports fan purchases season tickets he/she is not only buying tickets to an event, he/she is expressing an allegiance to the team. That allegiance is based on mutual respect. When the Marlins announced that they might be leaving and that they were slashing payroll and disrespected their best customers by not offering an opportunity to cancel their ticket plans, they severed that allegiance. I am submitting several documents in the form of newspaper articles that support my argument. The purpose of these articles is to emphasize the veracity of my claims. The national media has been covering this story thoroughly and I could literally send you hundreds of articles from different publications about the team?s recent decisions that are not flattering to the ball club. My understanding is that American Express wants its members to be completely satisfied with purchases made from its merchants. That is why I am disputing these charges. I am not satisfied with my purchase because what I will be receiving in exchange for my money does not in any way resemble what was represented to me as the product. For the record the charges in dispute are below. There were 4 charges because the purchase was made on a payment plan. 8/29/05 $224.95 10/1/05 $200.59 11/1/05 $212.78 12/1/05 $212.77 Total: $851.09 Most sincerely, NAME OMITTED for Privacy

I renewed my season tickets for several reasons. 1. I thought the Marlins had a real a shot at the playoffs. Hell with like 10 days left in the season baseball prospectus' odd calculator had us as the favorite for the wild card. Let's not forget how close we were before the wheels fell off. 2. I knew the team wasn't going to exactly the same. I knew Burnett was going to be gone, I knew Beckett and Lowell would probably be gone. But I expected that they'd plug those holes (like they had done in the past) and move on. Saying that I should have expected this fire sale is the stupidest F-ing thing I've heard. Based on what? This ownership had never done anything of the sort. Every signal they sent was positive. If they had said well next year we're looking at a $20 million payroll or that there might even be the possibility of it, I certainly would not have renewed. Since the books aren't open, none of us really know how much they're losing or more importantly how much they are willing to lose. I think they are looking to get back some of the money they lost in 2004 and 2005 and that's why these cuts are so drastic. 3. Like I said if you think fans like me are the ones driving the team away you are welcome to purchase my account. But if I had done as you say and been more cautious and not renewed my tickets the Marlins would be in the same exact place (without me as a STH).

Well I made a simple post this morning and it has exploded. I want to address a few of the arguments made here. First off don't ever F$$king blame the season ticket holders for the team abandoning the market. The reason I bought the tickets in the first place (right before the 2003 season) was that as a baseball fan I felt a responsibility to buy them and be at the game. In short , if the Marlins were to leave town it wasn't going to be because of me. I purchased a 2 for 1 plan in the terrace box section that cost me about $800. I renewed the next year (2004). Then they got rid of the 2 for 1 and I still renewed(for 2005). And I just paid them once again for (2007). It's the season ticket holders that have been there for this team and now they get slapped in the face. I understand that they need to cut payroll. And the truth is that if they had offered me the choice of a refund and apologized for what looks like is going to be an ugly season rather saying "well you bought it tough, they are going to be 'major leaguers'" I probably would have kept my account because I love baseball. But I'm not going to be held hostage. They may screw the season ticket holders in 2006 but they will have ZERO season ticket holders in 2007 because they pissed everyone off. Let's say that Miracle of Miracles happens and the stadium gets funded. There's a lot of people that will not commit to season tickets because of past treatment by this ownership. Their decision to make everybody "eat it" in 2006 is very short sighted unless they do intend to get the hell out of dodge. In which case my decision to ask for my money back doesn't affect their decision to leave one bit, because it's already been made. I'll go to games next year because I love the game, but as long as AMEX can help me to get out of my plan, I feel that I'm justified. By the way my wife and I are trying to have a baby and we're using IVF because we both have varying degrees of infertility. I hope none of you ever have to go through it because it costs an arm and a leg. I can't justify spending another $1,000 on the Marlins especially if it's not going to be enjoyable. It's my freaking money so don't try to hang me with a guilt trip. Anybody that thinks that people like me will drive the team away are welcome to purchase my account. Put your money where your mouth is and I'll be glad to cancel my AMEX dispute with the Marlins. Otherwise you know what you can do and the initials start wit S and end with U.

I called American Express, which is the credit card I used to renew my season tickets a couple of months ago when they sent out the playoff package. I explained the situation to the rep on the other end and she encouraged me to dispute the charges. She says that it's American Express' policy to do everything possible to make sure that its card members are satisfied with purchases from their merchants. She gave me an instant credit for the funds I have paid to date and said they will enter the dispute process. Even if I lose the dispute which will take several weeks to mediate, I have my money back for the time being (with it being the Christmas season, this isn't a bad thing). I also make the Marlins have to answer to somebody with more power than I have. If enough people complain to AMEX they could conceivably pull the Marlins merchant status. It's been my experience that AMEX goes to bat for it's customers a lot more than VISA/MC. That's why I always use the American Express card for big ticket purchases and online purchases.

Brandman I think you may have something there regardless of how dismissive some jerks on this board can be. First of all if you're sitting in Jeffery Loria's chair you're not just unloading. You may need to unload but you eventually want to win somewhere, even if it's not Miami. Everyone knows that the one commodity that you can't have enough of is pitching. If you bring up a bunch of minor leaguers and don't coach them properly you end up blowing their confidence and their careers. Then you can't use them when you are ready to try another run, or trade them for other pieces because they'll be worthless. LoDuca is like another coach on the field for those guys. He could still be traded but your theory isn't as wacky as some make it out to be.

I'll be there. It won't be hard to tell who I am.

I think it's far fetched to believe that he didn't know this was coming. Besides what would the Marlins have to gain by hiring one of the more sought after names that were available if they were going to tear the team apart? Girardi has an agent. And he sure as hell could make the Marlins life miserable by coming out against the club and these moves. There has to be some plan because you don't go out and get a manager that's going to cost you more than some other less known guy if you're going to just throw any old team out there. Hell they could have brought back Boles for that.

It doesn't matter how many fans go to the games in vegas or watch on TV. Vegas has a huge tax base thanks to casinos which means that Oscar Goodman can offer the moon and the stars in terms of subsidies and guarantee the Marlins against losses. If the New Orleans saints were being subsidized, and that's one of the poorest cities in the country, what do you think Vegas can offer the Marlins? Even if they play in front of 5,000 people every night they'll be making money hand over fist.

That's spin doctoring at it's finest. "No I didn't say that." "No he didn't say that, he's got jetlag" How can they know, before the engineers look at thing, if it's even viable to spend $100 million trying to upgrade that piece of crap? Arriola is being exposed as the buffon he is.

OK genius, what's your plan? Insert jeopardy theme song here. I work in the creative field. When you have an assigment, a deadline, you begin to brainstorm. Not every idea is feasible or great but sometimes better ideas are born as variations of so so ideas. In a brainstorm it's not very productive to shoot an idea down flat because it may just be the best idea available. It's easy to sit behind a terminal and say: "That won't work!" So we have a huge problem. We're all fans and none of us want the Marlins to leave town. In order to achieve our ends we may have to give up on some of our requirements like "The stadium should be next door to my house." And it's not so easy for a franchise to leave town. The Marlins may have to accept a deal that's less than what they'd like, whether it's here or elsewhere. So just because they say soemthing is unacceptable doesn't mean that they won't negotiate it away. And this is all about negotiation.

81 dates per year vs. 6 and the proportional revenue would be "main tenant" territory in my book.

Well it's easy to tear down an idea.

The ballpark proposal that was on the table before, the one that was going to be next to the OB, included terms that the City would own the ballpark. The team would derive the ancillary revenues associated with ownership but would not, in fact, own it. They'd be paying rent. In fact that's where the majority of the $200 million the team offered would be coming from. Rent payments. As far as sharing goes, I don't agree that that is the problem. The problem is not sharing in the revenue. Sharing 6 dates per year isn't an issue it's making sure that you get the revenue for your 81 dates. As far as actually sharing the playing surface, the Dolphins were the ones that were suffering because of the dirt infield. I addressed the turf issue. In college football artificial turf is pretty common. And the Nike Field turf they use these days is much better than old stuff that was like a carpet. None of the newer ballparks use turf but there are certainly a few that still use it. Skydome, Metrodome, The one in Tampa, etc. Again it's not the ideal but it solves a huge problem.

I have an idea that is a compromise. Since it's a compromise it's, by definition, not the best solution for each of the parties involved but it solves everyone's problems. Here's the idea: The Orange Bowl gets destroyed and a new dual purpose dome is built in its place. It's a fixed dome that is designed to be comfortable for both sports. It can be done. The dual use stadiums of the past were ugly and uniform but sightlines were not an issue. One could be designed one that is more aesthetically pleasing than previous ones. A fixed dome would cost much less than a retractable one. The stadium could be designed with glass walls below the dome to allow natural light to enter during the daytime and have less of a feeling of being enclosed. It would be climate controlled perfect weather for every game. The turf would have to be artificial, but they have made big advancements in turf and it's a much better than it used to be. Also converting from baseball to football would be much easier and the football team wouldn't have to worry about playing in dirt. Between the Marlins and the Hurricanes there will be 87 guaranteed dates per year. The MIAMI Marlins stay in town, Hurricanes fans and alumni are happy. Ok let the dissecting and complaints begin...

The best thing is that the people at Dolphins stadium had no idea what Arriola was talking about. I don't remember if it was in that NBC6 story or the other one I read online (orlando sentinel). And yes Roger Dean is a great place to see a ballgame.

Y'all understand that beginning in the late summer of 2008, there will be no place for the Marlins to play with the Dolphins and Hurricanes sharing PPS. It's called a squeeze play. They'll be able to play at Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter. After all it will be a minor league with minor league crowds by that time.

Yep, my reaction exactly.

It has nothing to do with Miggy but I don't want a propaganda victory for an Idiot like Hugo Chavez who is a communist and who is steering his country towards communism. Anything that elevates Hugo Chavez is a bad thing in my opinion.

OK I'm going to post the email that I sent him and his response. I have to add that I originally wrote the email and sent it to Mayor Diaz who graduated from the same High School as me. When I copied and pasted the email I forgot to take out that reference. This is my original email to him: Dear Mr. Arriola, I will begin this note by letting you know that I am not a resident of the City of Miami. My father, Dr. Enrique L. Gomez MD, does have his practice in the City and my uncle Mario Perez runs a business, Optica Futura, in the City. I am also a fellow graduate of Belen Jesuit Prep School. The reason that I'm writing is to let you know how disappointed I am that a deal couldn't be made with the Marlins to bring them to Miami. It seems to me that you and the Mayor are more interested in preserving the sacred cow that is the decrepit Orange Bowl. You've allowed the good of the City to become secondary to some ridiculous sense of nostalgia for the University of Miami. It seems clear to me that the Orange Bowl site would be a viable one for the new ballpark if the old stadium could be torn down. This would save the City the monies that are currently earmarked for an insane attempt at restoring the old box of rust. It would also mean that private property around the site would not need to be condemned and purchased from its owners. The Miami Hurricanes currently play 6 home games per year at the Orange Bowl. This year they averaged less than 40,000 in attendance for those 6 games. So a ballpark for the team that represents all of south Florida is foregone to preserve the home field for the University of the few? The University of Miami could easily relocate its games to Dolphins Stadium. I'm sure the stadium management would appreciate the additional dates and the fans of the University will appreciate the better facility. Why should the University of Miami get any special consideration from the City? After all, regardless of that institution's name, it's the University of Coral Gables. I may not be a resident of Miami but neither are the Hurricanes. It's really a shame what is happening with the Marlins and I hold you and the Mayor responsible. Most sincerely, Henry L. Gomez He responded with the following gem: For someone that went to. Belen you sound pretty stupid, we gave them 375.M to build the stadium now they want an additional 100M they have no money and want a free riide and that has nothing to do with the Orange Bowl -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld I then responded with: The city of Miami gave $375 Million!? News to me. Keep on spending on that white elephant, the Orange Bowl. I'm sure that's what your constituents want and not a ballpark for the Marlins. By the way the Belen reference was for the Mayor. I forgot to change it when I sent the message to you. I'm aware that you went to Columbus. Henry L. Gomez He then responded with: That still keeps you in the stupid category and now you can add loser to it -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld Today I sent him the following: Dear Mr. Arriola, Despite the fact that you called me stupid and a loser I'm back for more abuse. I read the article on NBC6's web site about the possible demolition of the Orange Bowl. I would humbly suggest that building a new football stadium for a small private college to play its home games is a less worthwhile proposition than building a ballpark that will have a smaller footprint, will fill more dates for the venue and is for a team that would represents the whole south Florida area in general and the City of Miami in particular. I may be jousting at windmills because I know the Hurricanes and their precious stadium are sacred cows and the University of Miami has a lot of political palanca for private institution but I will join any campaign to ensure that public funds are not spent on the Hurricanes ahead of building a new ballpark for the Marlins. Sincerely, Henry L. Gomez

I won't be rooting for Cabrera. Communist countries have a tendency to use sports for propaganda purposes and make no mistake about it, Venezuela is going communist. I'm Cuban-American but I'll be rooting for our American players and also for the Dominican guys.

The problem here is the political pull the University has and the soft spot the politicos have for UM. And removing Samson from the negotiations is only half the equation. Arriola is no bowl of cherries. I sent him an email just 3 days ago (before this article about the OB crumbling) about how throwing money at the OB instead of tearing it down and making way for the ballpark is a bad decision for the City. He responded by calling me "stupid" and "a loser". Nice! And even if the Canes drew sellout crowds every time, it's still only 6 dates per year which could easily be played at Dolphins stadium, where I'm sure they would be welcomed. As for soccer I have to laugh. That was another one of the City of Miami's great miscalculations of all time. When the Miami Fusion MLS franchise awarded, the one place that seemed to make sense for them to play was the OB. But Joe Carollo, then the Mayor, played hardball about the rent. Mind you the building is empty 358 days a year. So the Fusion settled for Lockhart and the rest is History. Today we have no MLS team because Miami couldn't pull the trigger on the right thing.