FRZfishfan

http://www.nbc6.net/sports/5433658/detail.html I think tearing down the Orange Bowl presents the perfect opportunity to put Miami back in the mix. If it's determined that the stadium isn't structurally sound I think Marlins fans should pressure on the City of Miami to use the land for the new ballpark. Without the OB standing in the way, there's enough land to build the new ballpark without condemning nearby private property which would save money for the overall project. The other thing is that something like $100 million had already been set aside to renovate the OB before the damage from Wilma. That money could go towards the funding gap for the ballpark (I believe it's bed tax money). Why should the City build a new stadium for a private school from Coral Gables that plays 6 home games in front of an average crowd of 45,000 when it could build a ballpark that guarantees 81 home dates (the Marlins drew 22,000 per game last year)? I know a lot of you think the OB site isn't good, but it is in South Florida which is better than Vegas or Portland, etc. I've reached the point that I don't care as long as somewhere between PB county and Monre County! The canes could easily be accommodated at Dolphins Stadium. Write City Manager, Joe Arriola at JArriola@ci.miami.fl.us and Mayor Diaz at mannydiaz@ci.miami.fl.us Also make sure you vote in the poll that's attached to the article.

I don't buy the steroid argument for Lowell. Lowell is an overachiever at the plate. A guy that doesn't have as much natural talent as others he plays with/against. Again I'm talking about at the plate. He's a line drive hitter. He's always claimed that when he hits homeruns it's cuz he gets lucky. He's also a thinking hitter. which means he's up there at the plate trying to figure out what's coming next. Some guys just go up there blank. See the ball, hit the ball. When your a thinker you can often outthink yourself. Another thing to remember is that he isn't hitting against a pitching machine. Pitchers adjust, change their approach especially the more they know a hitter. Did you ever think that as Mike has accumulated plate appearances that the book on him is much more well defined? Perhaps opposing pitching coaches have picked up on his tendencies. And again not being a natural talent it's not like he's going to drive balls opposite field for homers like Cabrera might. Everybody know Mike's sweet spot is the inside fastball waist high. Look I hate it when people drop names so I say this with reservations. I don't know Mike personally (met him at Golf tourney once) but a a very good friend of mine is very close to him. My friend is a not hanger-on. He knows Mike through his wife. Their wives are good friends. And he says you can forget about the steroid rumors with Lowell. I don't expect that to mean anything to you guys since you don't know the parties involved but it's good enough for me.

I think the Marlins will play in front of empty stands for the next two to three seasons while a new ballpark is built for them in some other city. We'll be like the Expos. And then when the Marlins are gone our local politicos will finally realize what we had and then they will suddenly "find" the money and land to build a new ballpark. We'll then try to get an expansion team. If we get an expansion team, we'll obviously be terrible for several years. This is what I call the Cleveland Browns scenario. Or we may try to get some other team to relocate although I can't think of team that might except the D-Rays or the A's. Either way your looking at 3 years for the Marlins to clear out of town. A couple of years to line up financing for the new park and three years to build it. You're talking about baseball returning to South Florida in about 2014. Ouch. We have to try to save the fish.

I posted the 2001 revenue and expense numbers for all of MLB as released to congress. You posted an article that backs by argument that the guy that's getting rich off the Marlins is Wayne. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/st...us-expenses.htm

The only one acting like a know it all is you , you are assuming the marlins are losing money by the boat load when it really hasnt been proven . As to 30 bucks that was just a guess it maybe more or less but given that the only seats that are almost always filled are most expensive seats it is probably more. when you add the ticket revenue, tv contracts, radio contracts, merchandise cut , the money they get from revenue sharing , and any other money Loria get I would be more than willing to bet he makes a profit . And yes you are making a claim that you think the marlins are losing massive amounts of money the basis of your claim is on Loria/Samson's word . If you disagree with me that is fine but you really havent shown the Marlins are losing money , whereas a plausible case can be made that they are making a nice profit despite their claims I posted the numbers that USA today published in 2002. What you don't believe them? OK but I posted something from what is supposed to be a credible source. You have posted nothing but conjecture and opinions. Bye Bye.

I found an interesting article at Baseball Prospectus. "Shortly before Commissioner Bud Selig's testimony before Congress on December 6, Major League Baseball released the most detailed summary of team finances since the antitrust hearings of the 1950s. The complete summary can be found here." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/st...us-expenses.htm These numbers are 5 years old but they were the numbers supplied to congress. You can clearly see where the Marlins are in the pecking order of MLB teams when it comes to revenues and expenses. In 2001, the Marlins ran an operating loss of $27,741,000. The received revenue sharing monies in the amount of 18,561,000 for a net loss of $9,180,000.

according to the New York times article that talks about Huizenga's 97 Marlins the following were estimated: Costs (in millions) Payroll: $53.5 Team Operations: $18.9 Player Development: $5.1 Scouting: $5.1 Latin American Operations: $0.6 Stadium Expenses: $5.0 Total: $88.2 We know that this years Marlins had a payroll of more than 65 Million. We can only assume that the other expenses associated with operating the team were at least as much as they were in 1997. That's a total of more than $100 Million in costs. The article goes on to say that Huizenga's accounting trick was that he took in stadium revenue that never was attributed to the Marlins through suites and club seats etc. The fact is that John Henry and Jeffrey Loria never had or will have access to those revenues.

No baseball team opens its books. None never. And go ahead and multiply the $30 bucks (your made up average ticket price) times the 1.8 Million and what do you get? But don't forget to subtract the rent and expenses. Would you happen to know what those are mr. know it all? I'm not the one that making claims.

Your post adds credibility to the fact Huizenga did make money off the Marlins and continues to make money off of them (instead of the team's owner). That's the whole freaking point. TO try to grow the revenue pie. Tax write offs are great if you have cash to run the day to day operations. But when you are living hand to mouth a write off is meaningless until he sells the team and can recover his cash. The point is he doesn't want to sell the team. He wants to own the team, he wants it to be profitable.

You wont find me trumpeting the tremendous fan support for the Canes, it is not there. Winning producing a 28 ranking in attendance is not really something to be proud of. Like mentiond, baseball has been breaking attendance records, so is the increase in attendance that far ahead of what baseball in general has received? There are many things to blame for Marlin attendance, I just dont think a new stadium solves most of the reasons that are there. No, I dont have a demographic chart of ticket holders, but if 50% of the season ticket holders come from Palm Beach COunty I would guarantee you that the vast majority of these are not latin. Nobody said a stadium solves attendance issues by itself. We could have nicest stadium in the country and if they Marlins have back to back seasons where they lose 100 games you'll be able to fire a cannon ball through the place and not hit anybody. But if you have the revenue that a new stadium generates (going toward the team and not a third party landlord which is Huizenga is) then you have more money to get players. The better players you have the better your chances of winning. The more you win, the more fans will want to come. Look the NY yankees drew as few as 1,748,737 fan as late as 1992. Nobody is going to claim that New York is not a baseball town. But when they began to win it became fashionable to be Yankee fan again. And again I ask you where you get your figures from. You claim that 50% of the season ticket holders are from Palm Beach county. Can you provide a link or a source for that information because frankly I think its some BS you either made up heard somewhere and are repeating without any firsthand knowledge. Being 28th in attendance is an absolute joke. Whenever I wear my black on-field cap or World Series champs hat around in NYC or Philly, people ask if there are actually Marlins fans. We're an absolute joke. Even the Blue Jays and Expos used to draw. Philadelphia has one of the oldest franchises in Baseball period. You are talking about more than 6 generations of baseball. And guess what smarty the 2002 phillies (2nd to last year at the vet) drew less fans (1,618,141 ) than the 2005 Marlins. So you're argument is totally blown out of the water by FACTS. It wouldnt matter if we were number one in attendance , Loria would threaten to leave if he doesnt get his state, county , or city funded stadium. Does anyone really believe Loria has lost one dime as the marlins owner ? The highest payroll under his watch 67 million , without taking one ticket through mlb and marlin contracts has already made up that money and then some. Babseball owner's math is a little different than ours Loria figures he could make 100 million more with new stadium so in his mind despite the fact he is making a profit he is losing out on revenue therefore he has lost money...he is full of sh?t Can you please link to the article that says how much the Marlins make on those contracts? Otherwise the only one that's full of it might be you.

My point is that I dont think that a stadium will do anything for attendance, it might as you say help with revenues, but I dont think that transalates into higher attendance (at least to a level that matters), even if they win more games. As much as people want this to be a baseball town, it just is not. The latin market is overplayed as in general, the latin market does not show up to games with the same volume as other demographics in south Florida. Do you have access to some demographic study of Marlins ticket buyers that we don't?

I just showed you how winning has increased attendance. If winning is based on the team having enough money to field a competitive team, more revenues equals more chance of winning. And that's not even considering how much a climate controlled stadium in a more convenient location will raise attendance. To simply say that it's not a baseball town is a gross oversimplification and inane drivel.

Nobody is saying that 28th in MLB is something to brag about but it needs to be put into context. Dan LeBatard and Boog Sciambi are making the argument that winning draws fans everywhere except Florida. But if you increase your attendance by 124% in 4 seasons I'd say that the team's winning ways were bringing back the fans that had been slapped in the face. The reason a stadium makes a difference is that increased revenue may equal increased payroll. There's no guarantee of that by the way. Ask the fans in Milwaukee. But Loria has spent his own money in the past to win. So it stands to reason that if the ballclub is generating more revenue in a new ballpark that he'll spend that windfall on players and not to line pockets, though again I say there is no guarantee. But one thing is certain: any owner of the Marlins that refuses to spend his own money (money over and above that which is generated by the club) will be fielding one of the lowest payroll teams in MLB because the current revenue streams are so small.

1993- 3,064,847 Inaugural year 64-98 1994- 1,937,467 Strike Shortened 51-64 1995- 1,700,466 Strike Shortened 67-76 1996- 1,746,767 first full season after strike 80-82 1997- 2,364,387 World Series Win, Announcement of team being for sale 92-70 1998- 1,750,395 Dismantling, team lost more games than inaugural team 54-108 1999- 1,369,421 John Henry buys team 64-98 2000- 1,173,389 79-82 2001- 1,261,226 79-82 2002- 813,111 Jeffrey Loria Buys team, negative publicity contraction rumors 79-83 2003- 1,303,215 World Series Win 91-71 2004- 1,723,105 In contention until last month 83-79 2005- 1,823,388 In contention until last month 83-79

Do you hear that sound? It's Richardson's presidential aspirations going down the toilet. Ouch.

In the last few days since Marlins President, David Samson announced the fire sale of its best and highest paid players as well as the team's intentions to search for another market to relocate to, the south Florida fans have taken a real beating in the media. Statements like "Florida fans are front runners who don't support their team." and "Winning sells in every market except South Florida." have been filling the columns of the newspapers and the radio airwaves. But I want to do something original in this debate. I want to look at FACTS. In 2002 the Marlins had a season attendance of 813,118 that works out to an average of 10,038 per game. By 2005 the team's season attendance had soared to 1,823,388 an average of 22,792 per game. In four short seasons the Marlins experienced an attendance boom of 124%. But because the first number was so low, even with the rapid increase, the Marlins still had the 28th highest attendance out of 30 in Major league baseball. But why was attendance so low in 2002? Let's take a look at the brief history of the Florida Marlins and see why they were playing catch up. The Marlins were established in 1993. The next season was shortened by a strike in which the World Series wasn't even played. Attendance across all of Major League Baseball was down for several seasons after that. In June of 1997, Marlins owner, H. Wayne Huizenga, announced he was selling the team, claiming that it was an unprofitable venture. Though a subsequent analysis by the New York Times proved that while the Marlins themselves may have lost money, they created a net positive revenue situation for Huizenga's entire portfolio that includes the stadium the Marlins play in. By selling the team, Huizenga was able to eliminate the expense side of his Marlins ledger and keep the revenue indefinitely since the Marlins would continue to be a tenant in his building. That day in June 1997, a cloud of uncertainty came over the franchise that still persists. After winning the World Series in 1997, the team was systematically dismantled and fans predictably stayed away in droves. In 1999 John Henry (today the principal owner of the Boston Red Sox) purchased the Marlins from Huizenga announcing that if he couldn?t get public funds to build a new stadium for the team, that he?d fund it himself. Later that same year, Major League Baseball yanked the 2000 All-Star Game from South Florida. John Henry?s time as owner of the Marlins was marked by dark statements about the future of the franchise if a new stadium was not built for the club. Of course he never followed through on his promise to privately finance it. On the field the Marlins were miserable and never posted a winning season during Henry?s ownership. The best players were routinely traded away for minor league prospects. In 2001 MLB owners voted 28-2 to contract two ball clubs. The Florida Marlins were on the short list to be contracted. Just prior to the 2002 season, the Marlins were sold to Jeffrey Loria and the franchise seemed to be in a shambles. The concession stands even ran out of hotdogs on opening day and the man who played Billy the Marlin, the team?s mascot, was fired in a cost cutting measure. Several players with big contracts were traded away during and after that season and it seemed that this was what baseball fans in South Florida were going to be subjected to until the Marlins met their ultimate fate. Ironically, the collective bargaining process the ruined the 1994 season saved the Marlins from contraction when the process began again in 2002. The players gave in to several demands from the owners including a revenue sharing plan among clubs but held firm that there would be no contraction. In 2003 almost every move that Loria?s team made in 2002 paid off. The Marlins were the hottest team in baseball for the last four months of the season. They captured the wildcard spot and went on to defeat the Giants, Cubs and Yankees en route to their 2nd World championship in the club?s short life. It seemed impossible for the team to move or be contracted after this accomplishment. There seemed to be a lot of momentum being generated for the Marlins to finally have a building of there own, where enough revenues could be generated to make the Marlins competitive over the long term. But as the news in recent days indicates, the stadium proposals that have surfaced to date are all dead. Jeffrey Loria, through club President David Samson, claims that he has invested significant amounts of his personal wealth to make the Marlins competitive but that he can no longer shoulder the losses and the from here on in, the team?s payroll will reflect it?s actual revenues and thus the team?s second fire sale in less than 10 years has begun. The fans that were abused by previous ownership groups were coming back as evidenced by the numbers above. It?s just that they didn?t come back fast enough. The sad fact is that Loria?s plan to rebuild the confidence of the fans was working, he just ran out of money before it succeeded. By the way, this year the Cleveland Indians almost did the same exact thing the Marlins did in 2003. They were the hottest team in the second half of the season and were alive in the playoff race until the last week of the season. The Indians play in beautiful Jacobs Field and drew a total of 309 more fans per game than the Marlins who were hot and cold all year long. In this soap opera, south Florida?s baseball fans have been the victims not the culprits.

As a Dolphins Season ticket holder (as well as Marlins) I think Dolphins stadium needs a roof. I sit in section 419 but it might as well be the surface of the sun. With all the 1:00 PM games (and now that we suck and don't get any night games unless a hurricane is coming, they are are all 1:00 games) it's a killer.

Look I know a lot of you are upset about losing Beckett and Lowell but let's face it, the days of a team keeping its core players together for 7 or 8 years are over unless you are a NY Yankees fan. I root for the team, and the players on the current roster. Our GM, can't get into emtional attachments. He's got a jigsaw puzzle he's got to assemble every season and sometimes the parts that fit last year aren't the ones that are going to fit this year. Certainly cost cutting is factor, but only because we were overpaying for the Lowell/Beckett combo. We just can't afford to have underperforming contracts on our payroll. Beckett is guy (like Pavano before him) who the market will overvalue because the market always overvalues SPs with "potential". Beckett is a big game pitcher. Unfortunately the big games only come after you make 35 regular starts during the season. And he seems like the kind of guy that doesn't get up for a Tuesday afternoon start against the nationals. I would have liked the Blalock deal more, because he's a legitimate masher and another left handed batter for the line-up, but I guess the idea is to get Cabs to his more natural 3rd base position.

Any time a team moves its ticket base is going to change somewhat. But my point was just because it's good for you doesn't mean it's good for the Marlins. There's no way that the DS site is optimal for a baseball team. It's a minimum 30 minute drive for almost everyone in the south florida area. They are going to have to choose Miami or Ft. Lauderdale and so far broward hasn't come up with the scratch.

Anyways, I think this is PERFECT location for the stadium. Considering the fact that I live 5 mins away is great too! Ive been a season ticket holder since 93' and been saying that they should build the stadium there for years!! We wouldn't want to inconvenience you any. It must be perfect because you say so. How is it that they haven't listened to you for all these years?

I don't know if it's been talked about here because I've been busy the last few days but apparently the OB had some damage during Wilma. During the game against UNC, they moved all the people from the upper deck into the lower bowl, claiming they just wanted to be sure, although it could have been simply to make the stadium look more full on a national TV game (there were only 30,000 there). If there is damage to the stadium, perhaps now is the time to raise a stink about sinking more taxpayer dollars into that dump and instead levelling it so they can make the baseball stadium without having to condemn any private property.

I'm very sorry about this, but I am glad that your friend managed to survive. My prayers are with you and those members of your community affected by this terrible tragedy.

Like I said, I didn't include the 95 yankees. Yes, the 92 Yankees never contended but the point is that every team has front running fans and that winning consistently over an extended period of time increases attendance. Like I said NY is 5 times the market of Miami-Ft.L. And the Yankees have a tradition that's something like 100 yrs old. You can say the Marlins have put a winner out there each of the last 3 seasons. Before that there was only one winning season (97). Hardly a history of winning but even so, attendance is creeping up. As far as the roof goes, I think it should be retractable and not fixed. You can keep it open during the day and on off days and then shut it during the games. There's no replacement for natural grass. I would be great if the roof had some sort of glass or plexiglass (even if it's just in select places) that would give you the outdoor feeling even when it's closed.

I'll always root against the Orioles because of that.

The first time I heard the name Jose Contreras, was during a pair of exhibition baseball games between the Cuban National Team and the Baltimore Orioles. I remember being pissed that this sham was even allowed to happen. What really disgusted me was seeing the Orioles owner, Peter Angelos, and Baseball Commissioner, Bud Selig sitting there schmoozing with castro. The Oriole players didn't want to play these games (one in Havana and one in Baltimore) on their days off. I can understand. The baseball season is a grueling 6-month marathon in which you get one day off a week, if you?re lucky, and spend most of the time traveling. I remember sitting there watching Albert Belle with the bat resting comfortably on his shoulder as he watched every pitch go by. I really wanted the Orioles to kick the crap out of the Cuban team. Of course they tanked both games giving fidel a nice propaganda victory. Anyway Contreras was a tall and lanky relief pitcher for the Cuban team. At the time he was in his mid 20's and many regarded him as a legitimate major league prospect if he were to defect. And defect he did in October of 2002. The New York Yankees signed him and 1 year later he was pitching for the Yankees in the World Series. The Yankees were facing my beloved Florida Marlins. David Wells started for the Yanks in game 5. But when Juan Pierre bunted in the first inning, "Boomer" Wells hurt his back trying to field it. Contreras came out of the bullpen for the Yanks in the second inning to take over for the hurt Wells and again I found myself rooting against Contreras, this time in person. He didn't fare well, giving up 4 earned runs in 3 innings and the Marlins went on to win the game 6-4. Of course the Marlins won game 6 and World Series in the Bronx a couple of days later. In 2004 Conteras was traded from the Yankees by their owner, the impatient George Steinbrenner. The Yankees sent Contreras to the Chicago White Sox in exchange for Esteban Loiza, a journeyman pitcher who had just come off a career year. Also in 2004 Contreras was reunited with his wife and two daughters. Despite the fact they had been twice been issued visas by the Nicaraguan government, castro's regime had denied Contreras family exit permits. They eventually made it to the U.S. by coming over in a boat; they were detained on Big Pine Key. Tonight Jose Contreras pitched a 9 inning complete game in Chicago's 6-3 pennant clinching victory. Though I like the Angels and was rooting for them, I was personally rooting for Jose Contreras, who is currently listed at a robust 245 lbs to go along with his 6'4" frame. The White Sox are going to the World Series while Steinbrenner's Yankees and their $200+ million payroll are watching on TV. Meanwhile Loiza only lasted one season with Yankees and went 12-10 (3.77 ERA) with the Washington Nationals this year. Felicidades Jose!