Out of the Past

I'd rank him next to Edwin Encarnacion :mischief Thanks for posting that. It looks to me like the formula doesn't factor the plays the fielder doesn't make that the average fielder would make and I see that as a major flaw in any defensive stat. I'm not entirely sold on Zone Rating but I prefer it over this one. Uhh, what do you think "fielding runs above average" means? Nonetheless I also trust zone ratings above Field Runs' over-analysis of raw data. Although zone rating systems don't adjust for defensive positioning. If you understood the formula you would know that it doesn't consider plays that should be made that weren't made. If you don't understand the formula you really shouldn't discuss it.

Cane could you plz give your source link I have been looking for defensive stats for quite some time I pulled the stats off of Baseball Prospectus. Here's a link to Cabrera's profile: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cabremi01.shtml And Wright's: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wrighda03.shtml The other seasons I listed can be found by searching for the player. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. You can see how fielding runs are roughly calculated by checking out this site (http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Leaders/glossary.htm). However, the one's I list from Baseball Prospectus work from that initial formula and include some adjustments. I pulled the following off of an article at Baseball Prospectus, you need a membership there to view the article, so I'm quoting the important part. "There are five key adjustments: * Park Factor: This affects outfielders more than other positions since infield size is strictly regulated while outfields seem to be turning more into amusement parks than playing surfaces. Other factors, such as the amount of foul territory, can also have profound effects on fielding performance, at least until baseball allows players to enter the stands to make plays. Imagine if the Cubs had built Wrigley Field with just a little more space in left field--Steve Bartman wouldn't have been able to reach out and grab his fateful ball. * Balls in Play: Certain teams allow more balls in play than others. Teams with staffs heavy with power pitchers (again, the Cubs come to mind) see many more strikeouts than an average team, yielding fewer balls in play. Fielders should not be penalized for not making an out when the pitcher does it all himself. * Ground balls and fly balls: Having the best outfield in the league means less if you've got a groundball staff. Since the GB/FB ratio listed for pitchers is based on outs, some slight adjustments have to made to estimate how many of the hits allows for ground balls with eyes and how many were liners and flies. * Left/right balance of the pitching staff: Left-handed pitchers face more right-handed batters--something that generally leads to more balls hit to short, third, and left field, and vice versa. After adjusting for strikeouts, better estimates of batted-ball distribution can be made. * Men of first base: With the exception of the rare triple play, the double play is one of the most impressive defensive feats in baseball. Obviously, though, certain teams have more opportunities for double plays than others, so knowing the raw number of double plays isn't nearly as helpful as knowing what percentage of double play opportunities were actually converted. " I don't have the formulas or what have you to calculate these adjustments for myself, I'm working under the assumption that they provide a more accurate assessment of the fielder's abilities as the reason for the adjustments, in my opinion, are logical. Baseball Prospectus uses Clay Davenport's formulas for these adjustments, so they are along the same lines as those used to calculate EqA. Thanks for posting that. It looks to me like the formula doesn't factor the plays the fielder doesn't make that the average fielder would make and I see that as a major flaw in any defensive stat. I'm not entirely sold on Zone Rating but I prefer it over this one.

If I were him, I'd be ashamed of his .208 batting avg. I think I'd be OK with a player like Miggy or D-Train saying something...but not Treanor. I agree. Treanor is not the one to whine about lack of support. I've gone to about 15 games this season and earlier this season when Treanor was a part-time starter I would plan ahead to NOT go on games he started becasue I don't have any interest at all in watching him play the game. When Moehler was a starter I would also plan around his starts for the same reason. Imagine if we had 25 Treanors on this team.. we would be about 110 games below .500. 2 fire sales will go a long ways to killing a fan base....what did they expect? If you think the Marlins would be selling out the stadium if they kept last years line up you are out of your mind. Both firesales have slashed attendance by something like 40%. If you're trying to grow a business I wouldn't recommend following business practices that slash your customer base by 40% ala firesales. Without a firesale, say with a $50 million payroll, a payroll that would allow Loria to break even, what kind of a team do you think we would have? Give Beinfest $50 million and I think he would have this team leading the WC and attendance would have increased a bit from last year's 23k to 26k or 27k. That's not great but at least the size of the fan base would be moving in the right direction.

While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. Cabrera is the best 3B in baseball and overall is one of the top handful of hitters in the game but I've watched him play about 85% of his games this season and if he's a good defensive 3B, as you're alluding, then my eyeballs are lying to me. In my opinion the best defensive stat to use is Zone Rating and Cabrera ranks 18th out of 22 MLB 3B in ZR and that jibes with what my eyeballs have watched so far this season. Polo, Wouldn't you agree, however, that Cabs has improved dramatically during the season defensively? The majority of his errors came early on. He's made some very nice plays, and I think he will improve next year (needs to come into camp in shape!) I agree his defensive play has improved as the season has moved along. He has cut down on the errors, particularly the throwing errors, and is making more plays. The last 2 or 3 months he hasn't hurt the team with his glove (and arm) the way he did the first few weeks. Next season, if he's in shape, I think he could be an average defensive 3B. I don't think an "in shape" Cabrera will reach GG standards because even in top notch shape he'll still be bigger than most other 3B and I don't think he'll have the range or quickness to be a top defensive 3B.

Cabrera (in a down year or average year by his standards) Explain how it is that Cabrera is having a "down year or average year by his standards" when so far this season he has career highs in AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS?

While all of this is well and good, most will look at this and say "That proves nothing, these stats provide me with absolutely no basis for comparison." To hopefully provide some frame of reference, I dug up the statistics for Gold Glove 3rd baseman. How are those fringe stats calculated? The fringe stats you provided prove nothing, at least to me, unless you include the methodology used to calculate them and then only if the methodology follows a logical approach. Cabrera is the best 3B in baseball and overall is one of the top handful of hitters in the game but I've watched him play about 85% of his games this season and if he's a good defensive 3B, as you're alluding, then my eyeballs are lying to me. In my opinion the best defensive stat to use is Zone Rating and Cabrera ranks 18th out of 22 MLB 3B in ZR and that jibes with what my eyeballs have watched so far this season.

My main point is this: I don't think Fisaro is an ignorant wannabe baseball journalist. I think he did this deliberately. He saw HanRam's pitches-per-at-bat average, didn't find it impressive, and decided it was flashier (and profitable-er albeit misleading..lier) to show how he ranks in overall pitches seen. No big deal. But it is somewhat insulting to those who can see through it because it means he thinks us all too ignorant to notice. The NL has 92 players with 387+ PAs and Hanley is 12th among the 92 in pitches per PA so he deserves credit for his patience and making pitchers work which is one of the things a leadoff hitter should do. Our former leadoff hitter, JP, is 77th. With that said, I agree with you about Fisaro. The pitches per PA is a much more relevant number than total pitches but "8th" rings more impressive that "12th" so he went with total pitches. Fisaro is an infomercial writer so I keep that in mind when I read his stuff.

Hey Dombrowski was no slouch on talent either. I agree. He built a WS winner in '97. He should get at least as much credit as Beinfest for the '03 WS winner. And look at where the Tigers are now. The '06 Marlins are on pace to win about 75 games. Take out Cabrera and Willingham, 2 of the 3 best hitters on the team and both signed by Dombrowski, and this team is in the low 60s in wins.

The '98 team had a lot of young players that went on to have solid careers such as DLee, Renteria, Castillo, Kotsay, Gonzalez, Floyd and Livan and other young players that went on to have okay careers such as Counsell, Alfdonseca, Zaun, Redmond, Wilson, Millar and Dempster. Mantei was also good but injuries got him. That's 14 players taht are still playing and Mantei. I don't think the '98 team lost 108 games because they had no talent, I think they lost 108 games because although they had talent most of them were not ready for the big leagues.

I hope the ballpark will be a fair ballpark for both hitters and pitchers. I am thinking of something with the dimensions of Turner Field or Dodger Stadium. I think Dodger Stadium is considered a pitcher's park That's what i heard Tommy say the other day, that it was a fair ballpark. Dolphin stadium is more of a pitcher's ball park than Dodger stadium is, so what I mean is nothing like what we have now. Anyways, the point was that any ballpark, smaller than Dolphins stadium will definitely help Miggy's numbers. Dodger Stadium is supposed to be a pitcher's park just like DS. I think both are fair parks. The ones that are unfair are all the new hitter friendly stadiums. A smaller ballpark may help Cabrera's numbers but would hurt the team. Not many teams win in hitter friendly stadiums.

7 outs, 7k 50 pitches 8 outs, 7k not sure about the first two innings, but the ump is seriously squeezing Kaz in the 3rd 9 outs, 7k, 59 pitches I must have missed what happened... anyone know why Ben Zobrist PH for BJ Upton in the middle of the at bat? Upton hurt his shoulder while swinging... looked like it popped-out or something like that.

nolasco and ramirez shouldn't be candidates. this is betwee uggla/JJ/prince/zimmerman. You have to put Ethier and Russell Martin among the favorites with JJ, Uggla, Fielder and Zimmerman. Willingham is also in the mix. If it ended right now JJ should win it in landslide.

lol 03... Preston would step right in to either RF of CF Hermida is having a disappointing season but there's no way I would sit him to play Preston Wilson. who said Hermida would sit? So if you put Wilson in RF where would Hermida go?

lol 03... Preston would step right in to either RF of CF Hermida is having a disappointing season but there's no way I would sit him to play Preston Wilson.

Seems to me that if they are even looking at Miami (again), there must be grave concerns about Hialeah.....or they have already made the decision that Hialeah is out totally. The Miami option is possibly a last ditch effort to keep the team and they are headed to the Commish's office with their hats in their hands hoping for help. This scenario would also explain the reason that Marlins and/or MLB officials are still nosing around in San Antonio. Hialeah is not out by any means. The City of Miami is going to try naturally to score the Marlins. However the Marlins are going to stop and listen because competition between Hialeah and Miami can only help the Marlins and Dade County. The county obviously would be better off with a downtown stadium rather than a stadium in the NW corner of the county because of the added economic impact for downtown and because downtown would be a more central location for those who pay for the stadium (what a concept!) but a downtown stadium is not happening because there's no land and even if there was the price would be astronomical.

JJ is a legitimate CY candidate and is hands down the top rookie pitcher. Uggla is not an MVP candidate and is one of several rookie position players having outstanding rookie seasons but he has not separated himself from the pack. JJ is our best ROY candidate and this should not even be up for debate.

Without the numbers, but based solely on the reputations of Marlins employees, the number and reputation of our academies and some common sense, I think it's a big amount. You can't keep employees like that simply by being a good boss. You can't hold onto academies and camps without the money to construct and upkeep them. Just because you can't see the results on the field at Dolphins Stadium doesn't mean there's not a strong effort elsewhere. RFerry, if you're referring to international academies, I don't the how many academies we have and I don't know about their reputations but I do know that no player signed as an international free agent under Loria has made it and from what I understand we have cut back on out international scouting. There was a note in the Herald's baseball Q&A a few weeks ago about discussing how we've cut back on Latin America spending. Not much is written about the international stuff but I remember after Chavez took over we closed our Venezuelan operations. I don't know if they were re-opened. I hope so. Regarding your point that the owner can do whatever he wants, I agree the owner can do whatever he wants but I don't have to like everything he does and because Loria can do whatever he wants is the reason if taxpayers give him a stadium I would include a clause in there regarding minimum payroll requirements. Don't assume that just because there's a new stadium that payroll increases. There are too many examples where that didn't happen. I would also include a clause in which he has to cover the stadium's losses in case the stadium is a money loser. It's one thing to buy him a stadium but when the stadium is a money loser then taxpayers are on the hook for perpetuity and that's something else.

That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club. RFerry, I don't think we spend more on player development and the such than other teams. Do you have any reason to believe we outspend other teams in player development? I think the success comes from Beinfest and the job done by his group. From what I understood I thought Loria basically hired Girardi. I like Girardi but would have preferred if Beinfest hired his own manager. Maybe his own manager would have been Girardi or maybe not. I would rather have Beinfest making the baseball decisions and for Loria to stay out of it.

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave. There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now. you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books. every single owner does that...every one...paul allen and the sonics and that mess and the seahawks and etc...loria when compared to other owners around the league is right on par...he just doesnt have as much money as them I'll go out on a limb and say that our payroll (in percentage terms) is the lowest of any major professional team relative to other teams in its league in the last 30 years. I'm positive that that's a correct statement and if it's not then there's no more than one or two exceptions so I don't agree when you say Loria is right on par with other owners.

In that quote I'm referring to the '06 team. My major issue with Loria is this firesale. I've never trusted or liked him but I agree he tried to win in '03 and '05. Did he try to win in '04? I would lean towards "no" but that's debatable. This team ('06 team) is doing relatively well because of Beinfest and in spite of Loria, in my opinion. Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious. Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable? Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers? Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case? And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium? This year Loria will lead MLB in Operating Profit and I'm sure you're high fiving yourself because of it. He ahs every right to make a ton of cash but it sucks for the fans when the owner puts profits first. I'm certain the other owners are furious that Loria is pocketing the revenue sharing money rather than investing it in the team either through added players or by allocating it towards the stadium funding gap. Don't get confused, the reason this team is doing relatively well (9 games under .500) is because we have a Beinfest and not because Loria is a good owner. Loria can solve the slow progress of the stadium situation by putting money in or getting the local business community behind the stadium deal. Neither is likely to happen. He probably will. And that's a testament to his knack as a businessman. When did profiting become an evil act? Pocketing revenue sharing transfers? I've heard accusations about former Rays boss Namioli (sp?). And the Pirates owner too. By legitimate voices, not some fan on the street with neither a case of facts or knowledge of economics. I suggest you look around the names in the Marlins' front office and their Marlins' holdings around the globe. We have some of the best scouts that are well compensated. Our front office features three of the most desired GM candidates in the league and everyone of them got raises to stay this offseason. We have camps in Europe, Venezuela, the Dominican and the U.S. All expenses consistent with the law and spirit of the revenue sharing transfers' use to improve field talent or player development. And do we even need to discuss the issues with Dolphins Stadium? You are assuming that Loria can. By all accounts, he can not. Supposedly he can't stretch his credit that far. And apparently some don't consider Marlins baseball in South Florida a worthy investment. But there's another reason why he can't. MLB is on his back not to succumb to the demands of local politicians. MLB is pressing Loria to follow their protocols regarding the stadium negotiations. No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses? And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up. I think this year he'll recoup all the accumulated losses from when he bought the team. you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books. What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts. If you don't know the difference between "Operating Income" and "Revenues" then I really can't help you. That's pretty basic stuff that you should know before getting into this type of discussion. True. My mistake. Where are you getting your figure for $30-35MM anyway? I hardly doubt it accounts for all the Marlins expenses. And surely includes revenue sharing transfers which comes from non-operating sources. The Sun-Sentinel and another publication (I can't recall which one) have mentioned that number. If you take the '05 Forbes number and adjust it for things like the payroll reduction, the gross receipts reduction and the increase in revenue sharing that $30 to $35 million estimate is a reasonable one.

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious. No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses? And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up. I think this year he'll recoup all the accumulated losses from when he bought the team. Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave. There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now. you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books. What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts. If you don't know the difference between "Operating Income" and "Revenues" then I really can't help you. That's pretty basic stuff that you should know before getting into this type of discussion.

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure. You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that. Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida). Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious. Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable? Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers? Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case? And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium? This year Loria will lead MLB in Operating Profit and I'm sure you're high fiving yourself because of it. He ahs every right to make a ton of cash but it sucks for the fans when the owner puts profits first. I'm certain the other owners are furious that Loria is pocketing the revenue sharing money rather than investing it in the team either through added players or by allocating it towards the stadium funding gap. Don't get confused, the reason this team is doing relatively well (9 games under .500) is because we have a Beinfest and not because Loria is a good owner. Loria can solve the slow progress of the stadium situation by putting money in or getting the local business community behind the stadium deal. Neither is likely to happen.

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure. You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that. Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida). Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

our offense is going to be real good, real soon Only if we get a CF with a bat and keep Olivo.

Welcome back Matty. Spark the offense please. How would he do that?