Yes.

 

Article 1 Section 9 of the Constitution says "No capitation, or other direct tax shall be laid,....". Income tax is a direct tax. In fact, the income tax was imposed for a short time during the "Civil War", but the US Supreme Court shut it down. Why? Well in Pollock v. Farmers Loan & Trust Co., (1895), the Supreme Court ruled that "the income tax is indeed a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional."

there was some law written in later that allowed the Congress to enact an Income Tax.

 

 

I mean i guess we could disallow an income tax....but then we might as well just start living in total anarchy also.

how does no income tax = living in total anarchy?

 

If we truly had a limited government like the Constitution outlined, we would not even need an income tax...

indirect taxes would suffice

how does no income tax = living in total anarchy?

 

If we truly had a limited government like the Constitution outlined, we would not even need an income tax...

478547[/snapback]

 

 

 

unfortunately a limited government doesnt exactly pay for the upkeep of our defenses.

how does no income tax = living in total anarchy?

 

If we truly had a limited government like the Constitution outlined, we would not even need an income tax...

478547[/snapback]

 

 

 

unfortunately a limited government doesnt exactly pay for the upkeep of our defenses.

478551[/snapback]

:thumbup

oh but it does....a limited government can definitely pay for the protection of our rights: life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

 

Defense is definitely included in protecting our lives.

 

Indirect taxing, and limiting federal government on extraneous issues would solve a world of problems. Department of Education? Leave it to the states. Where is that in the Constitution?

 

I wanna know why the hell we even have a Constitution. Apparently, we just set some guidelines down on what political offices there are, and then just let the people in office do what they please.

 

The Constitution is the law. The government now has gone against the Constitution on many issues....and are able to do whatever they want pretty much.

what indirect tax do you think would be able to pay for hte defense of our country.

Sorry, but this is a moot point since a constitutional amendment does make it legal to collect income taxes:

Article XVI.

 

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

 

Proposal and Ratification

 

The sixteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the Sixty-first Congress on the 12th of July, 1909, and was declared, in a proclamation of the Secretary of State, dated the 25th of February, 1913, to have been ratified by 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were: Alabama, August 10, 1909; Kentucky, February 8, 1910; South Carolina, February 19, 1910; Illinois, March 1, 1910; Mississippi, March 7, 1910; Oklahoma, March 10, 1910; Maryland, April 8, 1910; Georgia, August 3, 1910; Texas, August 16, 1910; Ohio, January 19, 1911; Idaho, January 20, 1911; Oregon, January 23, 1911; Washington, January 26, 1911; Montana, January 30, 1911; Indiana, January 30, 1911; California, January 31, 1911; Nevada, January 31, 1911; South Dakota, February 3, 1911; Nebraska, February 9, 1911; North Carolina, February 11, 1911; Colorado, February 15, 1911; North Dakota, February 17, 1911; Kansas, February 18, 1911; Michigan, February 23, 1911; Iowa, February 24, 1911; Missouri, March 16, 1911; Maine, March 31, 1911; Tennessee, April 7, 1911; Arkansas, April 22, 1911 (after having rejected it earlier); Wisconsin, May 26, 1911; New York, July 12, 1911; Arizona, April 6, 1912; Minnesota, June 11, 1912; Louisiana, June 28, 1912; West Virginia, January 31, 1913; New Mexico, February 3, 1913.

 

Ratification was completed on February 3, 1913.

 

The amendment was subsequently ratified by Massachusetts, March 4, 1913; New Hampshire, March 7, 1913 (after having rejected it on March 2, 1911).

 

The amendment was rejected (and not subsequently ratified) by Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah.

Amendment XVI

 

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

 

 

 

 

In other words,

 

PWN3D!!!!!!!!1!1!

The income tax came in in the early 1900's. Was the USA in "total anarchy" before that?

478575[/snapback]

 

There was this thing called The Civil War, I guess countryman battling each other is anarchy.

 

Tonyi, we were not the superpower we are now, we were just a blip on a map and I don't recall jets and missiles being used back then and they can get kind of costly. Also their wasn't exactly everyone going to school then and with all those kids and expensive books it may be risky to cut off it's funding and go back to one room school houses.

 

Yeah, I think it's safe to say times have changed.

there was some law written in later that allowed the Congress to enact an Income Tax.

 

 

I mean i guess we could disallow an income tax....but then we might as well just start living in total anarchy also.

478538[/snapback]

 

The income tax came in in the early 1900's. Was the USA in "total anarchy" before that?

478575[/snapback]

 

 

 

the USA took a largely policy of non intervention before 1900.

 

 

 

that can never happen again.

Sorry, but this is a moot point since a constitutional amendment does make it legal to collect income taxes:

Article XVI.

 

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

 

Proposal and Ratification

 

The sixteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the Sixty-first Congress on the 12th of July, 1909, and was declared, in a proclamation of the Secretary of State, dated the 25th of February, 1913, to have been ratified by 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were: Alabama, August 10, 1909; Kentucky, February 8, 1910; South Carolina, February 19, 1910; Illinois, March 1, 1910; Mississippi, March 7, 1910; Oklahoma, March 10, 1910; Maryland, April 8, 1910; Georgia, August 3, 1910; Texas, August 16, 1910; Ohio, January 19, 1911; Idaho, January 20, 1911; Oregon, January 23, 1911; Washington, January 26, 1911; Montana, January 30, 1911; Indiana, January 30, 1911; California, January 31, 1911; Nevada, January 31, 1911; South Dakota, February 3, 1911; Nebraska, February 9, 1911; North Carolina, February 11, 1911; Colorado, February 15, 1911; North Dakota, February 17, 1911; Kansas, February 18, 1911; Michigan, February 23, 1911; Iowa, February 24, 1911; Missouri, March 16, 1911; Maine, March 31, 1911; Tennessee, April 7, 1911; Arkansas, April 22, 1911 (after having rejected it earlier); Wisconsin, May 26, 1911; New York, July 12, 1911; Arizona, April 6, 1912; Minnesota, June 11, 1912; Louisiana, June 28, 1912; West Virginia, January 31, 1913; New Mexico, February 3, 1913.

 

Ratification was completed on February 3, 1913.

 

The amendment was subsequently ratified by Massachusetts, March 4, 1913; New Hampshire, March 7, 1913 (after having rejected it on March 2, 1911).

 

The amendment was rejected (and not subsequently ratified) by Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah.

478564[/snapback]

 

 

 

seems like Das was right....

 

 

those constitutional amendments are just as important as the Constitution itself....without one the other doesnt carry as much weight.

The income tax came in in the early 1900's. Was the USA in "total anarchy" before that?

478575[/snapback]

 

There was this thing called The Civil War, I guess countryman battling each other is anarchy.

 

Tonyi, we were not the superpower we are now, we were just a blip on a map and I don't recall jets and missiles being used back then and they can get kind of costly. Also their wasn't exactly everyone going to school then and with all those kids and expensive books it may be risky to cut off it's funding and go back to one room school houses.

 

Yeah, I think it's safe to say times have changed.

478578[/snapback]

 

Do you really believe a lack of taxes provoked the civil war? That's a pretty radical proposition.

 

Do we really need to be a military "super power"?

 

One room school houses were pretty effective.

478581[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

if we were to say we are going to close shop on our military and all today....

 

 

we would be conquered by the end of the year.

 

 

because of the path we chose to folllow....we can NEVER go back to the old way of life.

i'm sure a number of countries that truly hate the US could find a way to eradicate the United States from history if given the opportunity.

Do you really believe a lack of taxes provoked the civil war? That's a pretty radical proposition.

 

No, just replying to the fact that you said their were no anarchy filled parts of US History prior to 20th century.

 

Do we really need to be a military "super power"?

 

 

Yes, we're the economic powerhouse, our decesions effect the entire world around us and what we decide to do means more than any other country in the world. Something tells me you need a military at that position. Drawing out of the international community so we don't have to pay taxes is dumbfounded. We've been attacked on our own soil less than three years ago once again proving that putting your military and law enforcement down to the ground is putting a bullet to your head because it would be a dog race to jump on us. Tell me Tonyi, of all the countries in the world that are the top economic producers of the world and have the top economy's. How many have little to no military compared to those that do have a military.

 

I mean we could all live like they do in Costa Rica and put all our money into education without taxes but then again Costa Rica isn't exactly a world leader like we are.

 

One room school houses were pretty effective.

 

Sadly, not every person in this country could send their child to a private school which is the only other equivalent to a ORSH(I in no ways am supporting vouchers, ignoring the public system is not an option and most vouchers wouldn't cover the needs of the inner city and such) with our public school system the way it is. Plus we have a "few" more kids now then we did back then.

how was the states' secession anarchy? The states voted to leave the Union, and created their own government...they voluntarily joined the Union, and voluntarily left. That is not anarchy.

 

As for the Ammendment changing that...I believe it was 1913 (was that Wilson? I don't remember) when it became part of the Constitution. It seems, as tonyi said, that our country was NOT in a state of anarchy.

 

And, as tonyi stated, if the government wasn't in an interventionist-type role, it would make defense a buttload easier.

 

The man/woman we vote in as President is President of the United States...not the World. Not Iraq, not Sudan, not Vietnam, etc.

 

Our government was NOT set up to be so loaded down on taxes. Our government wasn't even supposed to be so heavily dependent on taxes, anyway! (i.e. check out that American Revolution thing we had in the 1770s-80s).

YES! I'm glad someone mentioned the private school topic! There is no need to have a socialistic policy such as public education! Look at our education today! As, tonyi said (damn, I feel like I'm saying that a lot this thread), one room schoolhouses worked pretty well. Am I saying that we should have one room schoolhouses? No. I am saying that MY money, and my PARENTs money, and my peers' money should not pay for others' educations, unless they agree to do so in a republican (not the party) fashion (i.e. cooperative schools).

 

Senator Kerry came and spoke at Kennedy Space Center yesterday (I work there, so we got it on the KSC internal channel thingymajig), and watched him, John Glenn, and Senators Graham and Nelson speak. Kerry (or maybe Nelson...pretty sure Kerry) mentioned a study that said that the U.S. was compared to 41 "top nations" in the world in education, and we rank towards the bottom. Now, he was pretty vague on the facts, but it was a "Town Hall" meeting, and had more to do with question-answer type deals, so his pre-Q&A speech was not REAL specific in #s. Anyway, the point is, we can keep pumping more and more tax money into education, but it isn't going to work. The Department of Education (which should be eradicated) has a budget of 50 billion I think...that's incredible. And you wonder where we'd get money for defense? Hell, quit pumping billions of dollars into something that AINT WORKIN!

For all those Confederate flag wavers and Yankee backers,

 

The income tax is the consequence of the war that was fought in this country that pitted brother against brother. Brother, son, grandson, great grandson, etc. ended up paying the bill.

that's bulls***, Cape. The income tax was eradicated in 1895. The income tax resurfaced over 50 years after the start of the "Civil War".

Michael Peroutka:

As President, I would work to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment, abolish the IRS, eliminate the income tax and other Godless forms of taxation such as the property tax and the inheritance tax. As President, I would go back to the original design of the Founders, which was to sustain the legitimate role of the Federal government through excises, imposts, duties, and apportionment among the states.

we also were not a world power at any point prior to the creation of the income tax.

 

 

like i said.....we have chosen our path and truth is that we cannot ever stray from that path, unless we are willing to destroy the nation as we know it.

 

 

and if we ever unleash another nuclear weapon...which we are the only stuipd ass nation to ever do....the world as we know it will end....nuclear winter will be upon us.

willing to destroy the nation as we know it?

 

Maybe.

 

So many things are wrong with our government, and are not who it was intended to be. Those things could be destroyed. Our government will continue to get bigger and bigger, and people will have less and less say in what affects them...eventually...well, I don't need to go there.

if we ever drop another nuclear weapon....other countries will follow...knowing that not only are we capable of producing them but using them.

 

 

if we drop another nuclear bomb....the world ends.

 

 

 

PERIOD.

we also were not a world power at any point prior to the creation of the income tax.

 

 

like i said.....we have chosen our path and truth is that we cannot ever stray from that path, unless we are willing to destroy the nation as we know it.

 

 

and if we ever unleash another nuclear weapon...which we are the only stuipd ass nation to ever do....the world as we know it will end....nuclear winter will be upon us.

478840[/snapback]

 

 

Actually the idea of superpowers was something that was made popular in the cold war, where two super powers and their sphere of influence decided foreign politics. However we WERE a world power probably since after TR's presidency, where we expanded our territory abroad and began the whole policing the world garbage. After him we went to isolationism, but after we entered WWI, we were set as a world power for the long run. Furthermore, the income tax was created during Harding's admin (if i remember correctly) which was in the early 1920s before coolidge (the best economic policy in U.S history, but that carried self destruct mechanicsm due to such things as the implementation of income tax and an overabundance of anti-trust legislation passed during TR's presidency as well as Taft's.) So in the end we were a world power for at LEAST 20 years before income tax was implemented. And Das I agree that the fear of mutual destruction will prevent most nations from ever using a nuclear weaposn again, however, the U.S. would be one the last countries to ever use one, because we have no need, we have the strongest military in the world. If anyone ever does use a nuclear weapon it will be a rogue nation or terrorist group that gets their hand on one, and uses it to create chaos. In this case no one will retaliate with nuclear weapons b/c who are we going to fire it at, if it wasnt a nation that used it in the first place.