Shocking fact:? Mike Lowell was traded because there was a "sure thing" playing ahead of him named Scott Brosious.

566744[/snapback]

umm... Their the Yankees they can do whatever they want. Scott Brosius was a good player, and last time I checked they had a pretty good 3rd baseman playing for them right now.

566747[/snapback]

 

You miss the point. Brosius isn't ARod, never was, he was a very solid player, ARod wasn't even a pipe-dream at that point, and even though money isn't a big thing (and Brosius never commanded it, never making more than $5.25 million) to the Yankees, performance is. When Lowell was traded, Brosius came off his (statistically) best season in which he hit .300 with 19 HR's and 98 RBI. Proving that you never want to chance letting a "sure thing" go for a "could be."

566761[/snapback]

Huh? I'm not sure if I follow you. You're saying Lowell was the sure thing? Lowell hadn't played in the majors before they traded him. Brosius had been in the league at least 10 years at that time. Lowell was nothing more than a prospect at the time just like Willingham and Wilson.

I said it once and I will say it again

 

dont get rid of players cause you think you have suitable replacements in the minors

 

Cabrera's and Willis' came cause we had an unproductive LFer (Hollandsworth) and Our pitchers were dropping like flies.

 

Josh Wilson is not a SUITABLE replacement for Castillo

Josh Willingham is not a SUITABLE replacement for Lo Duca

 

And no, Dot not think Oakland A's, cause they havent won 2 WS in 6 years. Leave all that Sabremetric BS to them

566731[/snapback]

The A's have been able to win consistently and avoid installing a rotating door for their owner's sky box.

No one has been arguing we copy the A's style (although it would be nice for the Marlins to take advantage of their promising financial future (ie, new stadium)and develop a sound organizational philosophy). We shouldn't, we face different challenges, play in different ballparks, different leagues. Their style is not suited to ours. However we must though try to get the most value out of players at the smallest cost possible.

 

 

Willingham's bat platooning with Conine and Redmond (who normally translates to an above average starting catcher) would replace LoDuca's production and dramatically improve the production from 1B position and bench.

And for all Willingham's inexperience I trust him to do a passable job defensively behind the plate. There are catchers who have been starting for years in the majors who are worse defensively.

566767[/snapback]

 

Redmond and the words "above average starting catcher" have no place in the same sentence. Suitable back-up? Sure, "above average?" HELL NO. Willingham showed me zip when he was up, and for a team screaming about the bottom line, Conine is waaaaaaaaay too expensive to be a platoon player. If we're going to let LoDuca go for Willingham, I hope we just blow up the team and take a ground up philosophy because Conine, Pierre, Gonzalez, Lowell (as of now), and even Burnett may not be here in 2006, so it's now and next year...rebuilding can wait.

...and remember this:

 

under contract for next year for "known money" (arby excluded from this because it's impossible to know what arby will bring)

 

are Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell (for the sake of argument) Pierre, Encarnacion Pudge and Hampton. Those guys combine for a little over $32 million if you include the money to buy out Conine it approaches $33.5 which makes me think that we'll likely pick up Conine's option because it makes more sense to pay someone to stay than it does to pay them to leave. That's a payroll that rounds up to about $36 million. Coupled with the no-brainer arby pick ups of Cabrera, Beckett, Burnett, Mota, Willis, and Spooney (none of whom will command more than $5 million because Cabrera gets screwed by arby's rules and Beckett stunk this year) and I don't see any reason we can't offer arby to Lo Duca, a contract of about $22.5 for 3 years to Pavano (heavily back loaded), and even an undervalue deal to Benitez to see if he'll take comfort over money (something he of all people seems inclined to do).

566741[/snapback]

Using your figure for Pavano, and adding in Pudge, Hampton and low arbitration figures for LoDuca, Mota, Burnett, Beckett, etc. I'm coming up with $70M before adding Benitez, a rightfielder and filling out the bench and bullpen.

 

IF payroll increases I bet it won't be more than $65M.

Shocking fact:? Mike Lowell was traded because there was a "sure thing" playing ahead of him named Scott Brosious.

566744[/snapback]

umm... Their the Yankees they can do whatever they want. Scott Brosius was a good player, and last time I checked they had a pretty good 3rd baseman playing for them right now.

566747[/snapback]

 

You miss the point. Brosius isn't ARod, never was, he was a very solid player, ARod wasn't even a pipe-dream at that point, and even though money isn't a big thing (and Brosius never commanded it, never making more than $5.25 million) to the Yankees, performance is. When Lowell was traded, Brosius came off his (statistically) best season in which he hit .300 with 19 HR's and 98 RBI. Proving that you never want to chance letting a "sure thing" go for a "could be."

566761[/snapback]

Huh? I'm not sure if I follow you. You're saying Lowell was the sure thing? Lowell hadn't played in the majors before they traded him. Brosius had been in the league at least 10 years at that time. Lowell was nothing more than a prospect at the time just like Willingham and Wilson.

566774[/snapback]

 

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year. The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September. He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98. Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded. Brosius was the "sure thing."

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year. The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September. He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98. Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded. Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

...and remember this:

 

under contract for next year for "known money" (arby excluded from this because it's impossible to know what arby will bring)

 

are Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell (for the sake of argument) Pierre, Encarnacion Pudge and Hampton.? Those guys combine for a little over $32 million if you include the money to buy out Conine it approaches $33.5 which makes me think that we'll likely pick up Conine's option because it makes more sense to pay someone to stay than it does to pay them to leave.? That's a payroll that rounds up to about $36 million.? Coupled with the no-brainer arby pick ups of Cabrera, Beckett, Burnett, Mota, Willis, and Spooney (none of whom will command more than $5 million because Cabrera gets screwed by arby's rules and Beckett stunk this year) and I don't see any reason we can't offer arby to Lo Duca, a contract of about $22.5 for 3 years to Pavano (heavily back loaded), and even an undervalue deal to Benitez to see if he'll take comfort over money (something he of all people seems inclined to do).

566741[/snapback]

Using your figure for Pavano, and adding in Pudge, Hampton and low arbitration figures for LoDuca, Mota, Burnett, Beckett, etc. I'm coming up with $70M before adding Benitez, a rightfielder and filling out the bench and bullpen.

 

IF payroll increases I bet it won't be more than $65M.

566777[/snapback]

 

Pudge and Hampton are in that base figure. Figure that Burnett's $2.5 mil from this year increases to $3.5 mil (which isn't outrageously undervalued considering he's having injury issues again) Beckett's $1.51 doubles and Willis and Cabrera both get $1 mil (MLB experience greatly affects the money given to those three with Beckett entering his 4th year next year and Cabrera and Willis still being forced to work for "slave labor" because they don't have 3 years), and Spooney stays where he is at $350,000. Mota's at $1.5 mil, but he's having a similar season to 2002, so he won't increase by much more than $1 mil, leaving us to add $11.5 to that $36 mil meaning $47.5 million without Pavano LoDuca or Benitez, or a bench/bullpen.

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

Redmond and the words "above average starting catcher" have no place in the same sentence. Suitable back-up? Sure, "above average?" HELL NO. Willingham showed me zip when he was up, and for a team screaming about the bottom line, Conine is waaaaaaaaay too expensive to be a platoon player. If we're going to let LoDuca go for Willingham, I hope we just blow up the team and take a ground up philosophy because Conine, Pierre, Gonzalez, Lowell (as of now), and even Burnett may not be here in 2006, so it's now and next year...rebuilding can wait.

566776[/snapback]

As much as we all love the guy, if this team is going to be successful we can't keep sending Conine out there every day. He hits like a CF/MI/C art a premium offensive position.

 

Redmond has an OPS over .700 for the past four years, better than most starting catchers. The knock on him has been his durability which would be less of an issue if he was asked to start only 60-90 games under this proposed Conine/Willingham/Redmond platoon.

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

...and remember this:

 

under contract for next year for "known money" (arby excluded from this because it's impossible to know what arby will bring)

 

are Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell (for the sake of argument) Pierre, Encarnacion Pudge and Hampton.? Those guys combine for a little over $32 million if you include the money to buy out Conine it approaches $33.5 which makes me think that we'll likely pick up Conine's option because it makes more sense to pay someone to stay than it does to pay them to leave.? That's a payroll that rounds up to about $36 million.? Coupled with the no-brainer arby pick ups of Cabrera, Beckett, Burnett, Mota, Willis, and Spooney (none of whom will command more than $5 million because Cabrera gets screwed by arby's rules and Beckett stunk this year) and I don't see any reason we can't offer arby to Lo Duca, a contract of about $22.5 for 3 years to Pavano (heavily back loaded), and even an undervalue deal to Benitez to see if he'll take comfort over money (something he of all people seems inclined to do).

566741[/snapback]

Using your figure for Pavano, and adding in Pudge, Hampton and low arbitration figures for LoDuca, Mota, Burnett, Beckett, etc. I'm coming up with $70M before adding Benitez, a rightfielder and filling out the bench and bullpen.

 

IF payroll increases I bet it won't be more than $65M.

566777[/snapback]

 

Pudge and Hampton are in that base figure. Figure that Burnett's $2.5 mil from this year increases to $3.5 mil (which isn't outrageously undervalued considering he's having injury issues again) Beckett's $1.51 doubles and Willis and Cabrera both get $1 mil, and Spooney stays where he is at $350,000. Mota's at $1.5 mil, but he's having a similar season to 2002, so he won't increase by much more than $1 mil, leaving us to add $11.5 to that $36 mil meaning $47.5 million without Pavano LoDuca or Benitez, or a bench.

566786[/snapback]

So add in Pavano and that's $55, add LoDuca and that's atleast $60M and you still don't have a RFer, 5th starter, bench or bullpen.

The Japanese player strike may drive down the market of replacement players, but to the degree of getting productive RF bat, 5th starter and bench/bullpen for less than $5M. Let alone upgrading an offense that has still been medicore since adding LoDuca (and Encarnacion.)

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

566804[/snapback]

 

The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

...and remember this:

 

under contract for next year for "known money" (arby excluded from this because it's impossible to know what arby will bring)

 

are Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell (for the sake of argument) Pierre, Encarnacion Pudge and Hampton.? Those guys combine for a little over $32 million if you include the money to buy out Conine it approaches $33.5 which makes me think that we'll likely pick up Conine's option because it makes more sense to pay someone to stay than it does to pay them to leave.? That's a payroll that rounds up to about $36 million.? Coupled with the no-brainer arby pick ups of Cabrera, Beckett, Burnett, Mota, Willis, and Spooney (none of whom will command more than $5 million because Cabrera gets screwed by arby's rules and Beckett stunk this year) and I don't see any reason we can't offer arby to Lo Duca, a contract of about $22.5 for 3 years to Pavano (heavily back loaded), and even an undervalue deal to Benitez to see if he'll take comfort over money (something he of all people seems inclined to do).

566741[/snapback]

Using your figure for Pavano, and adding in Pudge, Hampton and low arbitration figures for LoDuca, Mota, Burnett, Beckett, etc. I'm coming up with $70M before adding Benitez, a rightfielder and filling out the bench and bullpen.

 

IF payroll increases I bet it won't be more than $65M.

566777[/snapback]

 

Pudge and Hampton are in that base figure. Figure that Burnett's $2.5 mil from this year increases to $3.5 mil (which isn't outrageously undervalued considering he's having injury issues again) Beckett's $1.51 doubles and Willis and Cabrera both get $1 mil, and Spooney stays where he is at $350,000. Mota's at $1.5 mil, but he's having a similar season to 2002, so he won't increase by much more than $1 mil, leaving us to add $11.5 to that $36 mil meaning $47.5 million without Pavano LoDuca or Benitez, or a bench.

566786[/snapback]

So add in Pavano and that's $55, add LoDuca and that's atleast $60M and you still don't have a RFer, 5th starter, bench or bullpen.

The Japanese player strike may drive down the market of replacement players, but to the degree of getting productive RF bat, 5th starter and bench/bullpen for less than $5M. Let alone upgrading an offense that has still been medicore since adding LoDuca (and Encarnacion.)

566808[/snapback]

 

Encarnacion's in there too, I'd assume he'd be our right-fielder.

 

And I'd assume that Pavano's contract would be backloaded to allow us flexibility to take Hampton's money off after next year, meaning it'd be closer to $57 mil after LoDuca and Pavano. Giving us around $8-10 mil to play with because if we don't raise pay-roll again we can't hope to build on our fan base.

Encarnacion's in there too, I'd assume he'd be our right-fielder.

566823[/snapback]

:lol

Are you interested in winning, or just playing veterans?

Encarnacion's in there too, I'd assume he'd be our right-fielder.

566823[/snapback]

:lol

Are you interested in winning, or just playing veterans?

566826[/snapback]

 

Play who we pay

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

566804[/snapback]

 

The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

566822[/snapback]

We're not talking about massive turnover here. I'm talking about 1 player and that is Josh Willingham.

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

566804[/snapback]

 

The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

566822[/snapback]

We're not talking about massive turnover here. I'm talking about 1 player and that is Josh Willingham.

566830[/snapback]

 

And losing possibly our #3 starter who pitches like a reliable 2 or low quality ace and either our set up man or closer. Not to mention that making Mota the closer is a massive gamble because we lose a lights out setup man and perhaps weaken him by making him a closer (Octavio Dotel anyone?).

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

566804[/snapback]

 

The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

566822[/snapback]

We're not talking about massive turnover here. I'm talking about 1 player and that is Josh Willingham.

566830[/snapback]

 

And losing possibly our #3 starter who pitches like a reliable 2 or low quality ace and either our set up man or closer. Not to mention that making Mota the closer is a massive gamble because we lose a lights out setup man and perhaps weaken him by making him a closer (Octavio Dotel anyone?).

566831[/snapback]

We have Spooney coming back and he was supposed to be our closer in waiting before he went down with TJ surgery. He'll be a fine set-up man. Obviously if we were to not bring back Lo Duca and Benitez, it would be so we could keep Pavano. I've said all along that Pavano should be the #1 priority.

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

566780[/snapback]

and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

566784[/snapback]

 

Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

566790[/snapback]

We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

566804[/snapback]

 

The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

566822[/snapback]

We're not talking about massive turnover here. I'm talking about 1 player and that is Josh Willingham.

566830[/snapback]

 

And losing possibly our #3 starter who pitches like a reliable 2 or low quality ace and either our set up man or closer. Not to mention that making Mota the closer is a massive gamble because we lose a lights out setup man and perhaps weaken him by making him a closer (Octavio Dotel anyone?).

566831[/snapback]

We have Spooney coming back and he was supposed to be our closer in waiting before he went down with TJ surgery. He'll be a fine set-up man. Obviously if we were to not bring back Lo Duca and Benitez, it would be so we could keep Pavano. I've said all along that Pavano should be the #1 priority.

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Believe me, I'm excited about Spooney, but we can't expect much more from him that what we got from AJ...TJ is a big deal for pitchers and the hardest thing to get back is location. Startes can struggle with location a little more than high-pressure relievers.

What I'm saying is that Brosius was in his contract year.? The Yankees were so high on Lowell that in '98 he was brought up to be on the 40 man in September.? He played in one or two games at the stadium, and since Brosius was in a contract year it appeared that he'd be getting the starting job in '98.? Then Brosius went on to win the WS MVP award and Lowell was traded.? Brosius was the "sure thing."

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and they would've been better off with Lowell. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Willingham would be a significant upgrade to Conine and Enc next year, and put up offensive #'s comparable to Lo Duca.

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Ummm...not exactly. Brosius still out produced Lowell in '99, and while 5 years of experience will make a player unquestionably better, I think an organization with no super strong financial backing or even a long term future for the franchise isn't looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

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We don't have the money to keep our team fully intact year to year, that's why the farm system is so important, and it's the biggest reason teams like us, the A's and the Twins have experienced so much success. We're not gonna be able to keep all 4 of Benitez, Mota, Pavz, and Lo Duca. Probably 2 of those 4, maybe 3 if Loria wins the lotto. So we have to have capable players in the minors to fill their roles. We have players that can do that in the bullpen, and we have Willingham who is ready for the majors, but we don't have any viable replacement for Pavz so he should be #1 on the list to keep.

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The A's are totally different than us. 1. They didn't trade Giambi or Tejada, they couldn't afford them, and even then they tried to keep them and ended up having something to show for them (via arby-compensation...which is more valuable than what you'll likely get when you're forced to trade a player because you have zero leverage when you have to deal), and even then they had major league talent to compensate for the loss (with the exception of Tejada none of their losses were replaced by minor leaguers). 2. The money they saved from those players leaving was reinvested in the team. Kotsay, Dye, Hatterburg, even Dotel and Redman were added to strengthen the team with proven Major League veterans. Teams can't hope to stay in contention having massive turnover to minor league talent.

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We're not talking about massive turnover here. I'm talking about 1 player and that is Josh Willingham.

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And losing possibly our #3 starter who pitches like a reliable 2 or low quality ace and either our set up man or closer. Not to mention that making Mota the closer is a massive gamble because we lose a lights out setup man and perhaps weaken him by making him a closer (Octavio Dotel anyone?).

566831[/snapback]

We have Spooney coming back and he was supposed to be our closer in waiting before he went down with TJ surgery. He'll be a fine set-up man. Obviously if we were to not bring back Lo Duca and Benitez, it would be so we could keep Pavano. I've said all along that Pavano should be the #1 priority.

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Believe me, I'm excited about Spooney, but we can't expect much more from him that what we got from AJ...TJ is a big deal for pitchers and the hardest thing to get back is location. Startes can struggle with location a little more than high-pressure relievers.

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unlike AJ though he's got a lot more time to prepare he's got a whole offseason to get his arm strong and his control back. I'm not expecting him to come back lights out but he'll be a big contributor next year.

first of all, helluva thread... good job by gobucks to think outside the bun

[/end Tommy Hutton]

 

if it means keeping Lo Duca, Pavvy and possibly Benitez, I am all for moving Castillo

 

I think that Easley can be a starter again and put up some solid and even good numbers....

 

now isnt Josh Wilson a SS?.... not sure why he would be a replacement at 2B(I realize moving from SS to 2B isnt the hardest thing in the world but assuming nothing has changed, he is still a SS)

 

as for Willingham.... I gotta think he will be with the team next year and be our Brandon Inge(better numbers of course ).... he will play catcher, 1B, LF and maybe spell Lowell at 3B every once in a blue moon

 

his bat is major league ready and while he aint Pudge or Bonds defensively he is certainly a capable fielder

 

again, great thread but I think it should have been posted at earliest, during the postseason

without luis we loose a big part of the team. and loduca contributes to the team. id prefer we dont trade any player in the lineup. ill be pissed!

without luis we loose a big part of the team. and loduca contributes to the team. id prefer we dont trade any player in the lineup. ill be pissed!

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I hope Beinfest has you on speed dial... we would hate for you to be pissed!

 

:plain

Trading Castillo is a bad idea, a .300 hitter who wins gold gloves. Between him and Pierre I'd trade Pierre who is over rated defensively. Although I'd rather keep Pierre.

 

But in reality the player to trade is Gonzalez (packaged with Encarnacion). As much as I like his defense he can't hit consistently and never will. If we could upgrade Encarnacion at RF then you could keep him. Otherwise, the 7-9 batters are outs. Right there you save about 7-8 M. Play Easley or a rookie at SS.

 

Keep in order of importance Pavano, Lo Duca, Benitez. Have to keep the starters together.

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I couldn't agree more. The priority for this offseason is to re-sign Pavano and Lo Duca. I think we can agree that it is important for this team to have production from the catcher position. It would be great to bring Benitez back, but I don't know how realistic that will be.

 

I also highly doubt that Castillo will be traded, nor should he be. If there is a player that Josh Wilson is going to replace its going to be Gonzalez. He's great defensively, but Wilson is supposed to be very solid in the field and i'm guessing you can get similar production offensively(not as much power, but a more consistent hitter) from him. Packaging him with Encarnacion is one way in which you may be able to unload that contract.

TSwift, you are dead wrong in saying I contradict myself. You conflate two different statements. If I say that I feel the team is good enough to contend at the beginning of the season, that is not to say that the organization feels it is too. And even if so, teams reserve the right to add to their talent pool if they feel their teams are missing something. In the case of this year's Marlins, Castro was a bust and the Treanor/Redmond platoon was not working or at least could not hold up for the entire season. The offense was struggling and Lo Duca was targeted as a possible upgrade. He was - he is a better hitter than both Redmond and Treanor. That is a fact. And if you upgrade a position of weakness such as the offensive output of the catcher position, well, your team offense gets better and more likely to score runs. That is a fact.

 

The Marlins organizational philosophy is bent on one major thing - maximizing value of players. This is of course tied to financial constraints, such as contracts and enough liquidity to purchase those contracts (thus, why the stadium issue is such an important thing because it would help supply a lot of revenue for this franchise).

 

Since the organization is basically poor, they have to choose their battles, so to speak. They have to invest in players that are undervalued by the market. One set of players that are - speed players. Such as Castillo and JP. Home runs cost a lot of money - which is why the A's have to rotate players in and out every year and why they will never win a championship. They rely on home runs and players to produce them consistently. While the Marlins rely on their team to manufacture runs - not by hitting the 3 run bomb, but by advancing runners and trading, basically, outs for bases. It is a system more likely to succeed if you have the right kind of players on that team - viz a viz (sp?) contact hitters that dont strike out too much. Again, those are specifically the type of players that are highly available, very cheap, and very valuable to this team.

 

That said, I am NOT for getting rid of Lo Duca for the reasons I just stated. He is a better hitter than Treanor, Red, and Willingham at this point (I am not sold on Willingham and have stated since Day 1 that he needs a lot more seasoning at the catcher position and that this was his only place of value at this point).

 

But the question is, how does a team that does not have endless finances support itself? How can we re-sign Lo Duca, Benitez and Pavano? I dont think there is any incentive to re-sign Benitez - we are going to have Mota next season and Spoon should be coming back (finally). Plus, we could always re-sign Koch and that could be a plus. Options are available.

 

Pavano is a high priority. He has a Cy Young caliber season this season and since we dealt away Penny, his presence in the rotation is even more important.

 

Lo Duca is also of high priority. First of all, let's not fool ourselves - we dont have a starting caliber C in the entire organization at this moment. Treanor and Red are a solid tandem, maybe even an average platoon, but because our philosophical system is in place (with players like JP and Castillo being more table-setters than clean up crew) we need as much pop as we can muster. The question, of course, is this: is Lo Duca worth it? That depends on how much money he demands. We made the mistake of letting Fudge go (not really a mistake since he wanted - and got - a $40M contract). We had to because of money. Lo Duca may not command as much and if that is the case, you have to evaluate it then.

 

But the philosophy of this team and my observation (regarding the potential of this team) are not contradictory. The fact is that the organization may have felt that the team that began the season was good enough to contend but that the situation didnt work out as such. So, they had to re-evaluate and reassess. Adaptation. The way that this team adapted was in line with their philosophy - maximize value of its players (Choi, Penny and Murphy for Lo Duca, Mota and Encarnacion did that on a talent level but not on a financial level. If you want to argue that as contradictory - go right ahead. But you already have company in Rferry.).

I love Luis too and I'd hate to lose him....

 

I brought up the idea earlier of dealing Castillo & using Easley there next season if we're in danger of losing Pavano...

 

But I just don't know. Castillo is awfully steady & overall is even a better on-base guy than JP at the top of the order.

 

Since we're all over the place on this thread, I wonder if anyone ever considered making Encarnacion into a center fielder? I'm not proposing we get rid of JP, it's just a thought. I mean he's got great outfield instincts, gets good jumps, good speed, good arm, and suddenly you'd have pretty good offensive numbers from a light-hitting position.

 

As far as losing players, I'm totally lost on what they're going to do. I think Benitez is probably a goner, after that I have no idea. I've heard they love Lo Duca, but we've got to save money somewhere & I just don't see where it's coming from.