September 21, 200422 yr Trade Castillo $5.5M Trade Juan E $4M Let Benitez go $3.5M Do not replace Penny with someone of similar salary $4M or so. Sign LoDuca $7M Sign Pavano $8M This leaves 46MM to re-sign Easley and obtain a RF'er who can bat # 5. Hmmm...Carlos Lee? Pierre, LoDuca, Lowell, Cabrera, Carlos Lee, Conine, Easley, Gonzalez, Pitcher. Starters: Beckett, Pavano, AJ, Willis, a # 5 Bullpen: Mota, Fox, Spooneybarger, Seanez, Bump, Weathers? Yes, it needs a lefty. Not bad!
September 21, 200422 yr Um, here's some thoughts, and I'm not going to get into this in depth now because I have hw due in about an hour. - The Oakland A's are the most overrated franchise in the history of baseball. There are two reasons why they are though of so highly: Because their pitchers are amazing, and because the media overrates Billy Beane like people here overrate many many a Marlin. Every single team had the Big Three marked on their draft boards as can't misses, everyone, and it just so happened they went to Oakland. Take them out, what do you have? A so-so offense, a shaky pen, and a cheap owner. They will likely lose one of the Big Three soon, maybe another after. Let's see Beane replace them and still win. He's done nothing until he does. - Another reason Oakland is doing well: They, up until this year, had a great pitching coach. They now have a great catcher (defense and pitch calling wise..... Damian Miller is one of the best pitcher handlers in the business). - Let's rewind to last year. I'm sorry, but take away Benitez, and last year was the worst offseason in Marlins' history. They had a chance at so much and went the cheap road, receiving nothing. Well, that isn't going to work this year. And they are poised to make almost all of the mistake they made last year over again. A catcher and a closer in their walk years, starting staff needs money, big players who have been here a while. Don't kid yourself, if not for the generosity of Mike Lowell and Luis Castillo, this team would be beyond horrible. They cannot afford to do that again because it will further destroy the fanbase that is being built up and will continue to anger people like me who, while I think this FO is easily the best for us ever, aren't sold that it's doing the best it could. - You all underestimate the importance of the catcher position. Honestly, I'm not shocked, since so few play the position when they are young or as they get older. But you can't just throw a solid bat at the catcher spot and hope. The most important thing, bar none, at catcher is what he does while he is in his catching crouch, not his batting stance. Catchers need to run the game, they need to control the pitchers, and they need to gun people down. Our staff is HORRIBLE at holding runners, they listen to the catchers (hmm, anyone remember the days of nothing but fastballs under the Ramon Castro Administration?), and they sometimes can get rattled. Lo Duca is a very good game caller, can erase runners despite the thinking of our pitchers that they don't exist, and is a general on the field. You have more than one general with Mikey, Alex, Niner, and Luiy regularly making trips to the mound on their own to calm pitchers down, however that needs to come from behind the plate. Also, if a pitcher doesn't trust his catcher, basically all bets are off. Don't get me wrong, I love Willy, but he isn't ready. He needs to be an aprentice up in the majors under Paul and Red for one year before he is ready. - You can't just throw minor leaguers out there to replace All-Stars and hope for the best. Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis come around once every decade, we got two. You won't see anymore anytime soon. And what of rookies being brought up on a team that's supposed to compete? You need veterans to anchor the ship, enough said. - Don't underestimate the damn bullpen, please. I'd have to say Armando is our second most important free agent. You have a chance to have the best bullpen IN THE MAJORS with Benitez, Mota, and Spooney. No, it isn't a pipedream, it won't take too much to sign that pen. Give Benitez 3/15 (4, 5, and 6), offer Mota arby, and make sure everyone's healthy for next year. Keep Perisho and Weathers around, throw in a Hutch or whoever loses a battle for 5th starter, and you have a pretty damn awesome pen. This makes up for the fact that the offense, while talented, has weaknesses. A pen of Benitez, Mota, Bump, Spooney, Perisho, Weathers/Hutch gives you two-three dominant arms (Benitez, Mota, depending on Spooney's health, he'll be dominant by July), a specialist who can get DPs on demand and can pitch a couple innings at a time (Bump), a lefty specialist who is very good against just lefties (Perisho), and a solid mopup man who can get the job done when called upon (Weathers). Also, since we know Jack isn't the use the closer in non-save situation kind of guy, with this pen he has the ability to do that. Plus, the *REAL* Four Horsemen finally get to all play together. And it's a 6 inning game. PLEASE DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE PEN AGAIN! - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right.
September 21, 200422 yr Trade Castillo $5.5M Trade Juan E $4M Let Benitez go $3.5M Do not replace Penny with someone of similar salary $4M or so. Sign LoDuca $7M Sign Pavano $8M This leaves 46MM to re-sign Easley and obtain a RF'er who can bat # 5. Hmmm...Carlos Lee? Pierre, LoDuca, Lowell, Cabrera, Carlos Lee, Conine, Easley, Gonzalez, Pitcher. Starters: Beckett, Pavano, AJ, Willis, a # 5 Bullpen: Mota, Fox, Spooneybarger, Seanez, Bump, Weathers? Yes, it needs a lefty. Not bad! 566936[/snapback] Fox is pretty much done, I don't think Lee is a free agent (Magglio is) and if he is he'll be resigned, and Seanez is also a free agent.
September 21, 200422 yr Lo Duca is also of high priority. First of all, let's not fool ourselves - we dont have a starting caliber C in the entire organization at this moment. Treanor and Red are a solid tandem, maybe even an average platoon, but because our philosophical system is in place (with players like JP and Castillo being more table-setters than clean up crew) we need as much pop as we can muster. The question, of course, is this: is Lo Duca worth it? That depends on how much money he demands. We made the mistake of letting Fudge go (not really a mistake since he wanted - and got - a $40M contract). We had to because of money. Lo Duca may not command as much and if that is the case, you have to evaluate it then. But the philosophy of this team and my observation (regarding the potential of this team) are not contradictory. The fact is that the organization may have felt that the team that began the season was good enough to contend but that the situation didnt work out as such. So, they had to re-evaluate and reassess. Adaptation. The way that this team adapted was in line with their philosophy - maximize value of its players (Choi, Penny and Murphy for Lo Duca, Mota and Encarnacion did that on a talent level but not on a financial level. If you want to argue that as contradictory - go right ahead. But you already have company in Rferry.). 566933[/snapback] You're not contradicting yourself. It didn't make much sense talent-wise either. My worry is that LoDuca will be overvalued. The amount of games he has started (thanks Jack), the All-Star appearance (thanks Jack and Sean Casey) and high batting average will overshadow his age, bad defense and average on-base and slugging ability. Honestly I have nothing against Paul LoDuca, I just don't want an all-flash some-contribution big-paycheck on the team. It's the same way I feel about Juan Encarnacion, Derek Jeter, David Segui and many others (inc. now my fav. player, Jeff Conine). Having too many of these bad contracts leaves the Marlins in serious trouble when it comes to upgrading other parts of team. I appreciate your analysis of the Marlins' position and course of action in finding a model to succeed, although I still suggest Loria/Samson/Beinfest act like a deer in headlights for the most part when it comes to the minor league organization. That's not even getting into the stretegy of drafting athletes, not ballplayers, and giving them big bonuses.
September 21, 200422 yr - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right. 566946[/snapback] We disagree about the importance of a catcher's defense and middle relief, but this we agree on. Even the non-big name players will not command as much.
September 21, 200422 yr The idea of Wilson and Willingham starting next season is so laughable on it's face it isn't worthy of debate.
September 21, 200422 yr - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right. 566946[/snapback] We disagree about the importance of a catcher's defense and middle relief, but this we agree on. Even the non-big name players will not command as much. 566956[/snapback] I, too, agree with this and I think this is a reason that Pavs will stay a Marlin. One way or another, the Marlins could find themselves with a premium talent at a very good price.
September 21, 200422 yr Lo Duca is also of high priority.? First of all, let's not fool ourselves - we dont have a starting caliber C in the entire organization at this moment.? Treanor and Red are a solid tandem, maybe even an average platoon, but because our philosophical system is in place (with players like JP and Castillo being more table-setters than clean up crew) we need as much pop as we can muster.? The question, of course, is this: is Lo Duca worth it?? That depends on how much money he demands.? We made the mistake of letting Fudge go (not really a mistake since he wanted - and got - a $40M contract).? We had to because of money.? Lo Duca may not command as much and if that is the case, you have to evaluate it then. But the philosophy of this team and my observation (regarding the potential of this team) are not contradictory.? The fact is that the organization may have felt that the team that began the season was good enough to contend but that the situation didnt work out as such.? So, they had to re-evaluate and reassess.? Adaptation.? The way that this team adapted was in line with their philosophy - maximize value of its players (Choi, Penny and Murphy for Lo Duca, Mota and Encarnacion did that on a talent level but not on a financial level.? If you want to argue that as contradictory - go right ahead.? But you already have company in Rferry.). 566933[/snapback] You're not contradicting yourself. It didn't make much sense talent-wise either. My worry is that LoDuca will be overvalued. The amount of games he has started (thanks Jack), the All-Star appearance (thanks Jack and Sean Casey) and high batting average will overshadow his age, bad defense and average on-base and slugging ability. Honestly I have nothing against Paul LoDuca, I just don't want an all-flash some-contribution big-paycheck on the team. It's the same way I feel about Juan Encarnacion, Derek Jeter, David Segui and many others (inc. now my fav. player, Jeff Conine). Having too many of these bad contracts leaves the Marlins in serious trouble when it comes to upgrading other parts of team. I appreciate your analysis of the Marlins' position and course of action in finding a model to succeed, although I still suggest Loria/Samson/Beinfest act like a deer in headlights for the most part when it comes to the minor league organization. That's not even getting into the stretegy of drafting athletes, not ballplayers, and giving them big bonuses. 566954[/snapback] I wouldnt say that the franchise is entirelyin the dark about minor leaguers. They seem more apt to use them as assets that can be liquidated. We dont have money, but we do have plenty of talent (or we did, and it is now being replenished). These guys have demonstrated that they are committed to putting a winning team on the field at the big league level first before anything else. And this makes sense. Why would you want the talent that is here already go unsupported? There does seem to be a nurturing of a winning environment going on here. I think it is within the team philosophy to deal Castillo if it means that they will be able to keep Lo Duca, Pavs, and Benitez. (Of course, this would also require them probably to deal Enc, in which case you now have holes at 2B and RF to fill). I think our priority is Pavano right now. After him, Lo Duca - because we dont have a catcher ready to start at all in this organization. It depends on the money, but I think he fits real well with this team. As for Willingham, he is not ready to play catcher defensively. I agree with Ramp that he could be a utility guy - his bat is ready and he can play LF, RF, 3B, 1B and C. But his value for us is C. All of this is premature. But still, it fascinates me. I like our recent philosophy of drafting college pitchers (they are more ready to succeed and contribute - and in essence cheaper to cultivate as they are more advanced). We got a lot of lefty pitching talent that could be real deadly and certainly highly valuable when the time comes. There are a lot of options that this organization has.
September 21, 200422 yr I hate all of you. And say what you want. Most of these ideas are complete garbage. And why can i say that? Because I'm a f***ing Maniac.
September 21, 200422 yr - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right. 566946[/snapback] We disagree about the importance of a catcher's defense and middle relief, but this we agree on. Even the non-big name players will not command as much. 566956[/snapback] I, too, agree with this and I think this is a reason that Pavs will stay a Marlin. One way or another, the Marlins could find themselves with a premium talent at a very good price. 567002[/snapback] Have you looked at the available pitching though? After Pedro, no serious names jump out at you (Clemens?), plus two teams with lots of money (Yankees and Orioles) need starting pitching big time. Not to mention that Benitez and Percival are the only quality FA closers available (unless the Reds don't pick up Graves' option), and it seems that LoDuca is lucky that he isn't an unrestricted FA, because he doesn't have to compete for a contract with any of the other players.
September 21, 200422 yr i love Luis Castillo as the 2nd basemen hes an Origanal marlin and a Gold Glover
September 21, 200422 yr Um, here's some thoughts, and I'm not going to get into this in depth now because I have hw due in about an hour. - The Oakland A's are the most overrated franchise in the history of baseball. There are two reasons why they are though of so highly: Because their pitchers are amazing, and because the media overrates Billy Beane like people here overrate many many a Marlin. Every single team had the Big Three marked on their draft boards as can't misses, everyone, and it just so happened they went to Oakland. Take them out, what do you have? A so-so offense, a shaky pen, and a cheap owner. They will likely lose one of the Big Three soon, maybe another after. Let's see Beane replace them and still win. He's done nothing until he does. - Another reason Oakland is doing well: They, up until this year, had a great pitching coach. They now have a great catcher (defense and pitch calling wise..... Damian Miller is one of the best pitcher handlers in the business). - Let's rewind to last year. I'm sorry, but take away Benitez, and last year was the worst offseason in Marlins' history. They had a chance at so much and went the cheap road, receiving nothing. Well, that isn't going to work this year. And they are poised to make almost all of the mistake they made last year over again. A catcher and a closer in their walk years, starting staff needs money, big players who have been here a while. Don't kid yourself, if not for the generosity of Mike Lowell and Luis Castillo, this team would be beyond horrible. They cannot afford to do that again because it will further destroy the fanbase that is being built up and will continue to anger people like me who, while I think this FO is easily the best for us ever, aren't sold that it's doing the best it could. - You all underestimate the importance of the catcher position. Honestly, I'm not shocked, since so few play the position when they are young or as they get older. But you can't just throw a solid bat at the catcher spot and hope. The most important thing, bar none, at catcher is what he does while he is in his catching crouch, not his batting stance. Catchers need to run the game, they need to control the pitchers, and they need to gun people down. Our staff is HORRIBLE at holding runners, they listen to the catchers (hmm, anyone remember the days of nothing but fastballs under the Ramon Castro Administration?), and they sometimes can get rattled. Lo Duca is a very good game caller, can erase runners despite the thinking of our pitchers that they don't exist, and is a general on the field. You have more than one general with Mikey, Alex, Niner, and Luiy regularly making trips to the mound on their own to calm pitchers down, however that needs to come from behind the plate. Also, if a pitcher doesn't trust his catcher, basically all bets are off. Don't get me wrong, I love Willy, but he isn't ready. He needs to be an aprentice up in the majors under Paul and Red for one year before he is ready. - You can't just throw minor leaguers out there to replace All-Stars and hope for the best. Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis come around once every decade, we got two. You won't see anymore anytime soon. And what of rookies being brought up on a team that's supposed to compete? You need veterans to anchor the ship, enough said. - Don't underestimate the damn bullpen, please. I'd have to say Armando is our second most important free agent. You have a chance to have the best bullpen IN THE MAJORS with Benitez, Mota, and Spooney. No, it isn't a pipedream, it won't take too much to sign that pen. Give Benitez 3/15 (4, 5, and 6), offer Mota arby, and make sure everyone's healthy for next year. Keep Perisho and Weathers around, throw in a Hutch or whoever loses a battle for 5th starter, and you have a pretty damn awesome pen. This makes up for the fact that the offense, while talented, has weaknesses. A pen of Benitez, Mota, Bump, Spooney, Perisho, Weathers/Hutch gives you two-three dominant arms (Benitez, Mota, depending on Spooney's health, he'll be dominant by July), a specialist who can get DPs on demand and can pitch a couple innings at a time (Bump), a lefty specialist who is very good against just lefties (Perisho), and a solid mopup man who can get the job done when called upon (Weathers). Also, since we know Jack isn't the use the closer in non-save situation kind of guy, with this pen he has the ability to do that. Plus, the *REAL* Four Horsemen finally get to all play together. And it's a 6 inning game. PLEASE DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE PEN AGAIN! - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right. 566946[/snapback] One of the only people on the board who says the real deal. This man know what he's talking about unlike 99% of you.
September 21, 200422 yr - Remember also, this offseason will be another buyer's market. Names like Beltran, Beltre, Morris, Big O, Drew, Ordo?ez, among many others, come to mind. There won't be bloated salaries. We have a chance if we work this right. 566946[/snapback] We disagree about the importance of a catcher's defense and middle relief, but this we agree on. Even the non-big name players will not command as much. 566956[/snapback] I, too, agree with this and I think this is a reason that Pavs will stay a Marlin. One way or another, the Marlins could find themselves with a premium talent at a very good price. 567002[/snapback] Have you looked at the available pitching though? After Pedro, no serious names jump out at you (Clemens?), plus two teams with lots of money (Yankees and Orioles) need starting pitching big time. Not to mention that Benitez and Percival are the only quality FA closers available (unless the Reds don't pick up Graves' option), and it seems that LoDuca is lucky that he isn't an unrestricted FA, because he doesn't have to compete for a contract with any of the other players. 567072[/snapback] True. I thought about that after I posted. It is true that the big name FA's in pitching are a select few - among which Pavano can certainly be counted. But I think when all is said and done, he will re-sign with the Marlins. The other thing to keep in mind is there are a lot of quality position players out there - and those get fans juices running. Just like the O's last season, I expect a lot of teams to try and sign some of these big name position players before the pitchers. But you never know - it depends on the market. Pitching is certainly at a premium, but some teams may forego the competition to sign one very good pitcher and sign 2 very good position players for about the same price.
September 21, 200422 yr LoDuca was the 'heart and soul' of the LOS ANGELES DODGERS! He was with them for far longer than anyone else and remained the one constant on a team. Isn't that what Luis Castillo and Mike Redmond (and Brad Penny) are to the Marlins? "was" being the key word. He's a Marlin right now and has established himself as a heart and sole player of THIS team. Any successful businessman knows to learn from his mistakes, and hopefully Beinfest has too. You don't hand jobs to young players, you let them earn it. Re-sign Lo Duca, and if Willingham plays so well that he takes the starting job from LoDuca, then you can move him. he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. Um.. then why not trade Pierre? JP is due close to $4M in the final year of his contract and is nowhere being within the top 3 at his position like Castillo is. I don't necessarily think either should go or that you can't utilize two similar batters in the same lineup (bating one of them in the 6th/7th spot worked well). However if you're going to make this type of argument then surely you'd have to come to the conclusion JP is the one you'd want to trade. A) JP is simply a better leadoff hitter B) We have a capable replacement for Castillo.. That being said, I don't think either should be moved. Like Admin said, their a huge part as to why we're the defending champs. That "redundancy" is such a luxury some of you take it for granted. To have two guys like Luis and JP at the top of the lineup is an embarrassment of riches, most teams would die to get either of them. I'd normally be with you' date=' but.....remember the last time we let a catcher walk because we thought another was ready?[/quote'] Well, we also were 10 games over .500 with Ramon Castro batting .150. LoDuca will be overvalued by millions because of his injury-aided All-Star appearance, McKeon-aided game starts and the attention paid to batting average rather than on-base and slugging percentage. 566566[/snapback] Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Do you actually think we were 10 games over .500 BECAUSE Ramon Castro was batting .150? We were 10 games over .500 DESPITE Ramon Castro's putrid play. Can you succeed without a productive catcher? Sure, but we don't have anyone who's going to hit at the pace Choi was hitting for that first month, or Lowell, or Cabrera...you get the point. Miguel and Lowell both were on on pace for 40-50 HR seasons in the first month, as was Choi if I remember correctly, needless to say, it was an aberration. LoDuca is a top 5 catcher in this league...keeping him should not only be a priority, it's a necessity.
September 21, 200422 yr - You can't just throw minor leaguers out there to replace All-Stars and hope for the best. Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis come around once every decade, we got two. You won't see anymore anytime soon. And what of rookies being brought up on a team that's supposed to compete? You need veterans to anchor the ship, enough said. - Don't underestimate the damn bullpen, please. PLEASE DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE PEN AGAIN! 566946[/snapback] the Braves did it.... I have no idea how they won this year but their veterans anchored the ship and the rookies they had were more than serviceable maybe I missed it but where did someone underestimate the bullpen?
September 21, 200422 yr Well, if you're going to be snippy... "was" being the key word. He's a Marlin right now and has established himself as a heart and sole player of THIS team. Prove it. A) JP is simply a better leadoff hitter Castillo gets on base at a higher clip, which is what you want out a leadoff hitter, while hitting for more power and stealing 30+ bases if asked to. LoDuca is a top 5 catcher in this league...keeping him should not only be a priority, it's a necessity. Doesn't say much about the NL's talent at the catcher position, does it? The AL has five better catchers than the NL's best.
September 21, 200422 yr They are both unsigned but the Marlins hold their rights if they offer them arbitration. Same for LoDuca, Burnett and Redmond.
September 21, 200422 yr - You can't just throw minor leaguers out there to replace All-Stars and hope for the best. Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis come around once every decade, we got two. You won't see anymore anytime soon. And what of rookies being brought up on a team that's supposed to compete? You need veterans to anchor the ship, enough said. - Don't underestimate the damn bullpen, please. PLEASE DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE PEN AGAIN! 566946[/snapback] the Braves did it.... I have no idea how they won this year but their veterans anchored the ship and the rookies they had were more than serviceable maybe I missed it but where did someone underestimate the bullpen? 567159[/snapback] Pen was underestimated last offseason and during the season many times. It still is to a slight extent but not so much. Also, the braves have Leo Mazzone. I could pitch for that team and win 20 with a 2.50 ERA and 130 K's.
September 21, 200422 yr Have you looked at the available pitching though? After Pedro, no serious names jump out at you (Clemens?), plus two teams with lots of money (Yankees and Orioles) need starting pitching big time. Not to mention that Benitez and Percival are the only quality FA closers available (unless the Reds don't pick up Graves' option), and it seems that LoDuca is lucky that he isn't an unrestricted FA, because he doesn't have to compete for a contract with any of the other players. 567072[/snapback] Well, there's Pedro as the dominant arm. But there are also arms such as Pavs, Big O, Benson, etc. Only a handful of high end top of the line starters, however their is a wealth of middle to back of the rotation arms. Also, my point was mostly that bats will be dime a dozen.
September 21, 200422 yr Have you looked at the available pitching though?? After Pedro, no serious names jump out at you (Clemens?), plus two teams with lots of money (Yankees and Orioles) need starting pitching big time.? Not to mention that Benitez and Percival are the only quality FA closers available (unless the Reds don't pick up Graves' option), and it seems that LoDuca is lucky that he isn't an unrestricted FA, because he doesn't have to compete for a contract with any of the other players. 567072[/snapback] Well, there's Pedro as the dominant arm. But there are also arms such as Pavs, Big O, Benson, etc. Only a handful of high end top of the line starters, however their is a wealth of middle to back of the rotation arms. Also, my point was mostly that bats will be dime a dozen. 567318[/snapback] Well, here's a dime, go get us a dozen :cool .
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