gobucks Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I was thinking about the numbers crunch the Marlins will be in this offseason and came up with this idea. Enc's contract is punitive to the Marlin's budget and will be difficult to trade. If we include Luis in a deal with Enc we can clear $9 million. As much as luis has been a big part of this team and is a great fielder, he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. We will need to sign Pavano, loduca, beckett, burnett, mota and spooneybarger. Those guys will cost about $25 million if you figure they can load some of Pavano's money into future years (when we don't have hampton money) We already have about $ 20 milion commited to lowell, cabs,willis, agon, pierre and conine. that leaves us at 45 + 11 for hampton and we are already at $56 million with no 5th starter and no RF. We can then look at willingham and stokes (@1b w/ conine in of) or bring a cheap of in. ??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJBurnett34 Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 yeah and stokes should be on the team in 2005 as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juanky Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Some people baffle me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Luis is worth what we are paying for him. He took less to stay with us and now you want to reward him for that decision by dealing him? And for what? He's contributed to this team. he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. 566506[/snapback] That "redundancy" is a big reason we're the defending champs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 The fact that Encarnacion is playing well 'enough' with a very bad shoulder makes me think that he's going to turn it on next year. If we were to deal anyone in the offseason, I'd think Lowell would be the most likely simply because his long term future is in doubt, and he's forcing our best player to play out of position. However, I really don't see us trying to get rid of anyone. And I see us trying to creatively defer some money from a few of our guys to keep everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury. Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005. Same goes with Conine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 On another note Josh Willingham is nearly ready with the stick and is close to getting a solid hang on the catcher position. Josh Wilson might do OK at SS, but he needs another full year in the minors to reap his full potential. Stokes is still 2+ years off with another disappointing season (for his standards). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury. Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005. Same goes with Conine. 566531[/snapback] I don't understand the logic in that one. He had a very good year last year, and was pain free. He hurts his shoulder this year and he slumps. The only different condition between this year and last year is his shoulder...therefore, he should be improved with a clean bill of health. I'm not saying triple-crown or MVP numbers, but he should drive in 95 and hit .270 if healthy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Tank Frenzy Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I was thinking about the numbers crunch the Marlins will be in this offseason and came up with this idea. Enc's contract is punitive to the Marlin's budget and will be difficult to trade. If we include Luis in a deal with Enc we can clear $9 million. As much as luis has been a big part of this team and is a great fielder, he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. We will need to sign Pavano, loduca, beckett, burnett, mota and spooneybarger. Those guys will cost about $25 million if you figure they can load some of Pavano's money into future years (when we don't have hampton money) We already have about $ 20 milion commited to lowell, cabs,willis, agon, pierre and conine. that leaves us at 45 + 11 for hampton and we are already at $56 million with no 5th starter and no RF. We can then look at willingham and stokes (@1b w/ conine in of) or bring a cheap of in. ??????? 566506[/snapback] I love how people think they are "experts" when it comes down to what we have to pay our players...where did you get your figures...All I know is that Beinfest IS an expert and he knows what to do...In Beinfest I Trust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc marlin Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd rather let Lo Duca go because I think Willy is ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBMarlin Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury.? Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005.? Same goes with Conine. 566531[/snapback] I don't understand the logic in that one. He had a very good year last year, and was pain free. He hurts his shoulder this year and he slumps. The only different condition between this year and last year is his shoulder...therefore, he should be improved with a clean bill of health. I'm not saying triple-crown or MVP numbers, but he should drive in 95 and hit .270 if healthy... 566540[/snapback] Plus the fact his defense in RF is superb. Enc is overpriced for sure, but I don't see anyone taking his contract off our hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Tank Frenzy Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd rather let Lo Duca go because I think Willy is ready. 566544[/snapback] Lo Duca is all Heart and Soul, this team succeeded last year cause of Pudge and we are in the hunt because of Lo Duca, going into 2005 I want to know that our catching position doesnt have to be a question mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juanky Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd rather let Lo Duca go because I think Willy is ready. 566544[/snapback] I'd normally be with you, but.....remember the last time we let a catcher walk because we thought another was ready? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanofthefish Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hell if you want to give Luis away, why are you annointing Wilson the new second sacker? The Fish I would hope hold on to Easley and give him the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rferry Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd rather let Lo Duca go because I think Willy is ready. 566544[/snapback] Lo Duca is all Heart and Soul, this team succeeded last year cause of Pudge and we are in the hunt because of Lo Duca, going into 2005 I want to know that our catching position doesnt have to be a question mark 566547[/snapback] LoDuca was the 'heart and soul' of the LOS ANGELES DODGERS! He was with them for far longer than anyone else and remained the one constant on a team. Isn't that what Luis Castillo and Mike Redmond (and Brad Penny) are to the Marlins? he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. Um.. then why not trade Pierre? JP is due close to $4M in the final year of his contract and is nowhere being within the top 3 at his position like Castillo is. I don't necessarily think either should go or that you can't utilize two similar batters in the same lineup (bating one of them in the 6th/7th spot worked well). However if you're going to make this type of argument then surely you'd have to come to the conclusion JP is the one you'd want to trade. I'd normally be with you' date=' but.....remember the last time we let a catcher walk because we thought another was ready?[/quote'] Well, we also were 10 games over .500 with Ramon Castro batting .150. LoDuca will be overvalued by millions because of his injury-aided All-Star appearance, McKeon-aided game starts and the attention paid to batting average rather than on-base and slugging percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury.? Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005.? Same goes with Conine. 566531[/snapback] I don't understand the logic in that one. He had a very good year last year, and was pain free. He hurts his shoulder this year and he slumps. The only different condition between this year and last year is his shoulder...therefore, he should be improved with a clean bill of health. I'm not saying triple-crown or MVP numbers, but he should drive in 95 and hit .270 if healthy... 566540[/snapback] Check the numbers lately? Encarnacion is the worst everyday RF in the majors this season and was 3rd worst in 2003. What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrizzle Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. Um.. then why not trade Pierre? JP is due close to $4M in the final year of his contract and is nowhere being within the top 3 at his position like Castillo is. I don't necessarily think either should go or that you can't utilize two similar batters in the same lineup (bating one of them in the 6th/7th spot worked well). However if you're going to make this type of argument then surely you'd have to come to the conclusion JP is the one you'd want to trade. sorry but i disagree with that In the NL, JP is definitely a top 3 lead off guy....likely the best his work ethic makes it all worth it although i dont agree with trading castillo either....whats the point? castillo gave us a deal and he showed us hes not an a**hole JP and castillo are key to our offense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer_fran Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I would rather see Easley at 2nd if we were to get rid of Luis. I'm not sure Wilson is ready. His numbers weren't too impressive at the hitter friendly Albuquerque. Willingham is ready and should be in the starting lineup next year no doubt. Someone mentioned Stokes, and I know I've said this before, I doubt Stokes will ever be ready for the majors. He strikes out way too much and doesn't walk enough. He would be dominated at the major league level. He'll be a guy that excites a lot of people by putting up big power #'s in the minors, but I just don't see him becoming a successful major leaguer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juanky Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury.? Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005.? Same goes with Conine. 566531[/snapback] I don't understand the logic in that one. He had a very good year last year, and was pain free. He hurts his shoulder this year and he slumps. The only different condition between this year and last year is his shoulder...therefore, he should be improved with a clean bill of health. I'm not saying triple-crown or MVP numbers, but he should drive in 95 and hit .270 if healthy... 566540[/snapback] Check the numbers lately? Encarnacion is the worst everyday RF in the majors this season and was 3rd worst in 2003. What am I missing here? 566569[/snapback] Shammy, you could build the best case in the world against Enc, but you know my feelings on the matter. Personally I think the offseason works as long as we ditch all the mid-range clutter (Valdez, Easley, Seanez, Cordero, etc.) there. I think we can keep all of the position players, main starters, and the back relief corps with this done. However, if one of the Big Four on the market (Dukie-Benitez-Pavs-Mota) has to go, I vote Lo Duca. Because honestly, I love Willy. And a Spooney-Mota-Benitez is just too tempting to let slip away. Best pen in the majors right there, nothing else matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is no reason to believe Enc will be anything than he is now due to performance before the shoulder injury.? Unless some miracle occurs I hope that he is not a starter in 2005.? Same goes with Conine. 566531[/snapback] I don't understand the logic in that one. He had a very good year last year, and was pain free. He hurts his shoulder this year and he slumps. The only different condition between this year and last year is his shoulder...therefore, he should be improved with a clean bill of health. I'm not saying triple-crown or MVP numbers, but he should drive in 95 and hit .270 if healthy... 566540[/snapback] Check the numbers lately? Encarnacion is the worst everyday RF in the majors this season and was 3rd worst in 2003. What am I missing here? 566569[/snapback] I'm not sure what numbers you're using to quantify him as the "3rd worst in the majors" last year. He led our team in doubles, had 95 RBI, hit only .006 points lower than Mike Lowell and stole 19 bases. I'm pretty sure that the Yankees platoon, the Mets' platoon, and at least three or four other teams couldn't boast that from their right fielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer_fran Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 please, some of you guys need to realize that Benitez won't be back. Our payroll is not going to increase much if at all from this year. I'm just hoping we can resign Pavano get rid of Enc, and hopefully trade Lo Duca for some young cheap players that can fill some of our holes, ala the Derek Lee deal last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rferry Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 he provides a redundancy to the line-up - we have two leadoff hitters. Um.. then why not trade Pierre? JP is due close to $4M in the final year of his contract and is nowhere being within the top 3 at his position like Castillo is. I don't necessarily think either should go or that you can't utilize two similar batters in the same lineup (bating one of them in the 6th/7th spot worked well). However if you're going to make this type of argument then surely you'd have to come to the conclusion JP is the one you'd want to trade. sorry but i disagree with that In the NL, JP is definitely a top 3 lead off guy....likely the best his work ethic makes it all worth it although i dont agree with trading castillo either....whats the point? castillo gave us a deal and he showed us hes not an a**hole JP and castillo are key to our offense 566577[/snapback] If Castillo was leading off and having his usual .360-.400 OBP season with 30 SBs he'd be within the top three. Castillo is a top quality 2B offensively and defensively. JP can not claim that. Alas there was no point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobucks Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 I am shocked at the replies! Not that I disagree with much that was said but rather that you guys think we can keep all these guys. The key is keeping the right guys - value. Think Oakland. This is not a condemnation of luis but rather a function of the Marlins finances. 1- I agree that having two leadoff hitters has been our identity. 2- I agree Stokes will 90% not be on the big league roster 3 - imo pierre is more valuable than luis. 4 - "fish tank frenzy" why the hate? I don't claim to be an expert but all my info was accurate (except maybe stokes) You may disagree but imo we need to get rid of Enc's contract in order to keep pavano and/or loduca. 5 - Who is more valuable: pavano or luis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SongInTheAir Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 keep luis, deal enc. definitely keep loduca, because willingham is a rookie, and our pitching staff needs a veteran catcher to help run them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Man Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 i hate some of you people. Yeah, Trade Luis Castillo. Shut the f*** up and die. 2nd, If we get rid of LoDuca, I'll be so f***ing pissed with this organization. I don't care, I'm 99% sure he'll be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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